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UMPIRE

3:3 - Black Panther vs. Guts the Black Swordsman

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SEASON 3, ROUND 3

Black Panther

Slot: Bringing the team's Sword
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Black Panther at Wikipedia
Official Site: Marvel



Guts the Black Swordsman

Slot: Bringing the team's Sword
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Guts the Black Swordsman at Wikipedia
Official Site: Kentaro Miura



Battle Terrain
Combat Terrain: Mount Doom

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Admittedly, I don't know a ton about Black Panther, but from what I do know, he's outclassed physically. Guts is incredibly fast, consistently fighting FTE enemies, dodging lightning (although there's a fair enough argument that it wasn't natural lightning, and thus may have been more sight-dodging than actually dodging), and has fought foes whose movement speed breaks the sound barrier. I don't know how strong Black Panther is, but Guts is very strong, probably in the Spiderman range I would estimate. Uprooting trees, lifting massive apostles, cutting through multiple people with one sword swing, etc. He's also durable as all hell, even more so with the Berserker Armor, which basically eliminates his ability to feel pain and sticks his body back together when he takes damage so he can keep going. It also makes him stronger and faster in that it pushes his body past its normal limit, again at the cost of his own health. It's not something he would typically use to start a fight against another human, but it's an option if things get tough. Black Panther definitely seems to have the advantage with his armor though, he's probably got better training, better tech, is smarter from what I understand, and probably has a more effective arsenal overall. However, it seems like the physicals are too big of a gap for Black Panther, to me. I'll hold off voting because I don't know the character super well, but going on his Respect Thread, he's gonna have a hell of a time trying to land a hit, and while his armor will keep him in the fight, he can seemingly still take damage in it, and definitely gets battered around. Captain America's punches seem to be affecting him here. Those anti-metal claws look like they would be a real issue, but I think Guts is fast enough that he's not really gonna get the chance to use them that much. He's gonna be on the defensive from the word go, and if all else fails, Guts can always just smack him into a pool of lava. I'm gonna refrain from voting yet, but my money is on Guts. Who is on my team so I'm definitely bias

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M'Baku is a character that can just as well uproot trees, but that is literally never a factor when fighting against Black Panther. I see Guts as too dumb of a brute to consistently be able to deal with Black Panther, whose vibranium suit can help him in the battle against Guts for as long as needed cause of one specific reason. Guts' sword is a blunt weapon. Even when thrown into lava, Black Panther would literally just climb out as stupid as that sounds.

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7 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

M'Baku is a character that can just as well uproot trees, but that is literally never a factor when fighting against Black Panther. I see Guts as too dumb of a brute to consistently be able to deal with Black Panther, whose vibranium suit can help him in the battle against Guts for as long as needed cause of one specific reason. Guts' sword is a blunt weapon. Even when thrown into lava, Black Panther would literally just climb out as stupid as that sounds.

Wait, is his suit really lava-proof?

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5 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Wait, is his suit really lava-proof?

I was going to say yes, but then after this comment I went and looked what exactly covers standard gear Panther, and I saw things that blew my mind. The picture that I'm about to post is apparently generally accepted to be normal Black Panther gear.

 

a7eb1e3ca9.png

So even if he does throw him within the volcano, instead of tanking it, Black Panther can just teleport before he hits the ground. This fight just got even wackier.

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21 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

M'Baku is a character that can just as well uproot trees, but that is literally never a factor when fighting against Black Panther. I see Guts as too dumb of a brute to consistently be able to deal with Black Panther, whose vibranium suit can help him in the battle against Guts for as long as needed cause of one specific reason. Guts' sword is a blunt weapon. Even when thrown into lava, Black Panther would literally just climb out as stupid as that sounds.

I don't think the characterization of Guts as a dumb brute is really valid. He's very brash and headstrong, but he does formulate plans and often tricks his opponents into unfavorable positions so that he can get the upper hand. This just happens to often involve skewering himself or something to get it done, but he does survive against Apostles that are way stronger than him despite all that. It's interesting that you say Guts' sword being a blunt weapon is the reason Black Panther can survive against Guts for as long as needed. Can you elaborate on that? Is his suit less resistant to slashing or stabbing than it is to blunt-force damage? Because while the Dragon-Slayer is a blunt-force weapon, it seems pretty dang sharp as well. He regularly cleaves through waves of enemies with a single swing, often fully armored or supernaturally strong ones too.

Guts is obviously my character so I'm bias, but I'm still not convinced Black Panther wins, mostly because at worst this devolves into a war of attrition that I think Guts can win. He might not take much damage because of his armor, but many feats in his respect thread imply that he does take some from certain attacks. Iron Fist gives him brain damage in this feat, apparently.  Now I don't know if Guts is as strong or fast as Iron Fist because I don't know a ton about Iron Fist, but it shows that the armor does have limits. Again, Captain America is battering him around in the aforementioned post and seems to be doing some amount of damage. Here, it looks as though a window ruptures his suit? Here his suit is ruptured again, but maybe she has Vibranium claws or something. I don't know the context, maybe it's a different suit, but the respect thread lists it as the same one. Here, Black Panther gets beaten by Kraven the Hunter, I think. It looks like he doesn't use any secret weapons or tactics, he just sort of outclasses him and beats him down. Now, all of these feats require context, obviously, and they certainly seem to be the low end feats of the suit. I'm not necessarily trying to belittle it, I'm simply calling into question how impenetrable it is. He's lost, or at least nearly lost, fights to people weaker than Guts before even though he had his suit.

 Black Panther is strong, durable, and fast, but Guts has him beat is all those departments, as far as I can tell, and the Berserker armor will literally allow him to fight until "all his blood drains out and all his bones are broken," and then he'll die. The speed difference is an important factor too. Early in the series Guts is relatively casually FTE. He reacts to this attack when it's clearly about to hit him, and the attacker in this case is explicitly supersonic. There's the aforementioned lightning dodging feat, although it looks like Black Panther has done that as well. 

Again, I truly don't know the outcome here. That's why I love this draft season. It makes you think of fights you otherwise wouldn't think of and learn about characters you don't know about. Any I'm not saying Guts definitely wins. They seem pretty evenly matched. But I still think Guts has the advantage. 

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The reason I make the distinction between the blunt force and the piercing ability of the Dragon-Slayer is because that's the distinction they make about his Panther Habit as well. Naturally, the suit isn't pure vibranium as that would make moving within the suit essentially impossible, but it is laced with vibranium at specific parts. The way that it's explained, cutting is possible with very sharp objects by cutting the uniform's grain, but if one were to use exclusively blunt force attacks against the Panther they would find themselves literally incapable of doing any damage to him unless they hit with the power of, well, higher than anything street level really. Or at least, the uppermost tier of Street Level. Kraven did in fact beat him during that time, as one would expect as he's a Spider-Man villain and more often than not actually portrayed as stronger than him, and faster reflex wise (I know, faster than Spider-Man who has a literal cheat button in the Spider-Sense, imagine that!), and yet when they rematch Black Panther manages to win while bloodlusted.

I get the Iron Fist fight puts a damper in this fight as well, but Iron Fist's power is dependent on how much energy he wishes to put into the fist while punching. As an ode to wuxia characters, his power literally fluctuates from story to story as he's gone from only giving brain damage to Black Panther (which is totally believable if you take his feats into account) to destroying Helicarriers with a single punch. This is why the distinction of piercing vs. blunt comes in play, as when he's up against predominantly blunt force oriented targets he more often then not wins unless they out skill him.

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20 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

The reason I make the distinction between the blunt force and the piercing ability of the Dragon-Slayer is because that's the distinction they make about his Panther Habit as well. Naturally, the suit isn't pure vibranium as that would make moving within the suit essentially impossible, but it is laced with vibranium at specific parts. The way that it's explained, cutting is possible with very sharp objects by cutting the uniform's grain, but if one were to use exclusively blunt force attacks against the Panther they would find themselves literally incapable of doing any damage to him unless they hit with the power of, well, higher than anything street level really. Or at least, the uppermost tier of Street Level. Kraven did in fact beat him during that time, as one would expect as he's a Spider-Man villain and more often than not actually portrayed as stronger than him, and faster reflex wise (I know, faster than Spider-Man who has a literal cheat button in the Spider-Sense, imagine that!), and yet when they rematch Black Panther manages to win while bloodlusted.

I get the Iron Fist fight puts a damper in this fight as well, but Iron Fist's power is dependent on how much energy he wishes to put into the fist while punching. As an ode to wuxia characters, his power literally fluctuates from story to story as he's gone from only giving brain damage to Black Panther (which is totally believable if you take his feats into account) to destroying Helicarriers with a single punch. This is why the distinction of piercing vs. blunt comes in play, as when he's up against predominantly blunt force oriented targets he more often then not wins unless they out skill him.

Both Iron Fist and Kraven may be stronger than Guts, but I still think Black Panther's struggles against them prove that Guts does have a win condition here. Battering him around enough with his sword, which weighs hundreds of pounds (estimates put it between 220 and 600 pounds) and is swung around faster than the eye can see, will eventually wear him out. Panther has a direct durability advantage, but the Berserker Armor and Guts' natural knack for taking hits from enemies the size of tall trees will keep him in the fight for a long time. The speed is probably pretty close, but it seems to me like Guts has a pretty substantial advantage in actual combat speed. It's a fair point that Dragon Slayer is probably not sharp enough to cut his suit, but again, it is sharp and strong enough to slice a half dozen men in plate armor in half. It won't be easy for either side, but in my (admittedly biased) eyes, Guts can win this

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Just now, Peypeypeypey said:

 It won't be easy for either side, but in my (admittedly biased) eyes, Guts can win this

Oh, nah. He can definitely win this, I'm just here to give a further explanation as to what Black Panther possesses and can bring to the table. This is a very interesting match up and I think I'll refrain from voting until the actual man who has Black Panther on his team steps up.

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So I guess the whole “sword fight” aspect of this is where I get a little stuck. So it basically comes down to if Guts can hammer away at the suit fast enough before Black Panther can slash in close?

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3 minutes ago, Magnamax said:

So I guess the whole “sword fight” aspect of this is where I get a little stuck. So it basically comes down to if Guts can hammer away at the suit fast enough before Black Panther can slash in close?

Wait, that's a really good point. I defy you to explain to me how Black Panther is "[a] close-in martial character that wields a sword or other similar hand-held striking weapon." His weapons are not hand-held. I win on a technicality!

/s, if that wasn't obvious

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I'm gonna go ahead and vote for Guts. I think he's got this, and I know myself. If I don't vote now I'm gonna forget lol. If someone comes in with a solid argument for Black Panther, my bad

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Match Final Results

Black Panther: 4
Guts the Black Swordsman: 9

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