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Peypeypeypey

Rumble 14655 Hela vs. Thanos

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this is a debate we've had many times in the subreddit who would win. I wanted your input here. Thanos has invaded Asgard with his forces. He meets Hela on the field, and the two duke it out. MCU versions of each. Hela from the end of Ragnarok, Thanos from the beginning of Infinity War. No one else will interfere. Who wins?

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It's not clear (from the movies, at least) that Hela can be defeated on Asgard. At the beginning of Infinity War, however, we do see Thanos effortlessly beat Thor, Hulk and Loki. Looking at Thanos at the end of Endgame (when he was roughly at the same power level) he's able to be slapped around by Scarlet Witch and Captain Marvel, though I can't remember if he has the power gem at that point.

 

I guess, at the moment, I'm leaning towards Hela, given that she seems borderline unstoppable unless Thanos can destroy all of Asgard quickly, which he wouldn't really have a reason to do so...I'll definitely wait for some more analysis before I cast.

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What stones did Thanos have at the start of IW again? Was it just power?

I actually think with both at base Hela would absolutely dumpster Thanos. He can overpower pure physical opponents like Thor and Hulk because he's stronger than them and all they can really do is throw hands, but like we saw with Scarlet Witch if an enemy can shut him down by keeping him at a distance and throwing inordinate amounts of firepower at him then there's really shit all he can do. Does holding the power gem boost his durability passively? If so he probably wins, but it always looked like whatever way the gauntlet harnesses the gem powers (I guess so they don't destroy him) required he actively use them for their effects to work. He takes it if he estimates Hela's threat properly and uses the full ability of the power stone to destroy her from the getgo, but if he dicks around or tries to fight her the same way he did Strange, Tony and the rest in IW I don't see how he doesn't get skewered by spikes from like 50 different angles.

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8 minutes ago, AVP vs The Terminator said:

What stones did Thanos have at the start of IW again? Was it just power?

I actually think with both at base Hela would absolutely dumpster Thanos. He can overpower pure physical opponents like Thor and Hulk because he's stronger than them and all they can really do is throw hands, but like we saw with Scarlet Witch if an enemy can shut him down by keeping him at a distance and throwing inordinate amounts of firepower at him then there's really shit all he can do. Does holding the power gem boost his durability passively? If so he probably wins, but it always looked like whatever way the gauntlet harnesses the gem powers (I guess so they don't destroy him) required he actively use them for their effects to work. He takes it if he estimates Hela's threat properly and uses the full ability of the power stone to destroy her from the getgo, but if he dicks around or tries to fight her the same way he did Strange, Tony and the rest in IW I don't see how he doesn't get skewered by spikes from like 50 different angles.

He had the power stone to start with at IW. He gets the space stone after killing Loki.

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2 hours ago, AVP vs The Terminator said:

What stones did Thanos have at the start of IW again? Was it just power?

I actually think with both at base Hela would absolutely dumpster Thanos. He can overpower pure physical opponents like Thor and Hulk because he's stronger than them and all they can really do is throw hands, but like we saw with Scarlet Witch if an enemy can shut him down by keeping him at a distance and throwing inordinate amounts of firepower at him then there's really shit all he can do. Does holding the power gem boost his durability passively? If so he probably wins, but it always looked like whatever way the gauntlet harnesses the gem powers (I guess so they don't destroy him) required he actively use them for their effects to work. He takes it if he estimates Hela's threat properly and uses the full ability of the power stone to destroy her from the getgo, but if he dicks around or tries to fight her the same way he did Strange, Tony and the rest in IW I don't see how he doesn't get skewered by spikes from like 50 different angles.

See, this is the take that was the consensus over there on the Whowouldwin subreddit, and I just disagree with this take. Hela did completely body the Asgardian army, but against Thor, whose physicals are way below Thanos, she didn't just skewer him. She went in for the close, 1v1 fight, and while she was definitely winning, Thor got in several good hits, and when he was at his most powerful, he was certainly able to hold his own against her. Thor then got another power up with Stormbreaker, and was accompanied by Iron Man and Captain America with Mjolnir, and Thanos, with no Infinity Stones, and they were all completely bodied by Thanos with no infinity stones. I just think Thanos scales way higher than she does, and her only real arguments rely on a NLF (she can't be killed in Asgard) or her range game, which isn't as strong as people say it is. I just think Thanos is way stronger, and would probably win

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2 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

See, this is the take that was the consensus over there on the Whowouldwin subreddit, and I just disagree with this take. Hela did completely body the Asgardian army, but against Thor, whose physicals are way below Thanos, she didn't just skewer him. She went in for the close, 1v1 fight, and while she was definitely winning, Thor got in several good hits, and when he was at his most powerful, he was certainly able to hold his own against her. Thor then got another power up with Stormbreaker, and was accompanied by Iron Man and Captain America with Mjolnir, and Thanos, with no Infinity Stones, and they were all completely bodied by Thanos with no infinity stones. I just think Thanos scales way higher than she does, and her only real arguments rely on a NLF (she can't be killed in Asgard) or her range game, which isn't as strong as people say it is. I just think Thanos is way stronger, and would probably win

You know, I was going to side with Hela on this but you make some good points Pey. Thanos would be an equal match for Hela without any stones, so I think with the power stone he'd have the edge to win.

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3 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

See, this is the take that was the consensus over there on the Whowouldwin subreddit, and I just disagree with this take. Hela did completely body the Asgardian army, but against Thor, whose physicals are way below Thanos, she didn't just skewer him. She went in for the close, 1v1 fight, and while she was definitely winning, Thor got in several good hits, and when he was at his most powerful, he was certainly able to hold his own against her. Thor then got another power up with Stormbreaker, and was accompanied by Iron Man and Captain America with Mjolnir, and Thanos, with no Infinity Stones, and they were all completely bodied by Thanos with no infinity stones. I just think Thanos scales way higher than she does, and her only real arguments rely on a NLF (she can't be killed in Asgard) or her range game, which isn't as strong as people say it is. I just think Thanos is way stronger, and would probably win

Not to be insensitive but Thor Lebowski was a depressed fatass, he was far from at his peak. We don't know how Thanos beat Thor at the start of IW (unless there's been a comic or something covering that), so I dunno how accurate it is to say Thanos's physicality is far superior to his. If we go by the showings Thor w/ Stormbreaker in his peak physical condition has against Thanos then he's the one who sliced right through a beam from the Infinity Gauntlet like it was nothing and owned him, I'm actually of the opinion that Thor on top of his game and wielding the axe could match Thanos if not outright beat him. We also don't know how, or if, Thanos overcame Thor in his awakened state (the only one that was actually more than an inconvenience to Hela) or if he even got a chance to bust it out, probably cuz it was an idea Taika Waititi had and the Russos didn't wanna touch it. Personally I got the sense Thor wouldn't really have cut loose with the lightning stuff on board a ship of innocent Asgardians, so he probably tried to handle Thanos with brute strength and got rocked.

I also think there was an element of pride coming into Hela's fight with Thor. She could've easily stabbed him with infinite spikes until he died, but instead she engaged him at close range and with swordplay. My feeling is that she wanted to establish that she was Odin's true heir, while she'd have no compunctions whatsoever about just spamming some random invader like Thanos to death. Again my main reason for feeling this way is that Thanos's showing against Scarlet Witch was just SO awful, like he had absolutely nothing up his sleeve to counter her whatsoever. If we go by prior showings then Scarlet Witch isn't even that strong, certainly not more powerful than Hela in Asgard. There's also the fact that Hela can't die on her turf, which you mention as a NLF but I respectfully disagree there cept maybe that the power stone can pull it off. He'd have to cut loose with it though, if he fights the same way he did with the IG vs Strange and the others then I still think he gets skewered.

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1 hour ago, AVP vs The Terminator said:

Not to be insensitive but Thor Lebowski was a depressed fatass, he was far from at his peak. We don't know how Thanos beat Thor at the start of IW (unless there's been a comic or something covering that), so I dunno how accurate it is to say Thanos's physicality is far superior to his. If we go by the showings Thor w/ Stormbreaker in his peak physical condition has against Thanos then he's the one who sliced right through a beam from the Infinity Gauntlet like it was nothing and owned him, I'm actually of the opinion that Thor on top of his game and wielding the axe could match Thanos if not outright beat him. We also don't know how, or if, Thanos overcame Thor in his awakened state (the only one that was actually more than an inconvenience to Hela) or if he even got a chance to bust it out, probably cuz it was an idea Taika Waititi had and the Russos didn't wanna touch it. Personally I got the sense Thor wouldn't really have cut loose with the lightning stuff on board a ship of innocent Asgardians, so he probably tried to handle Thanos with brute strength and got rocked.

Word of God from the Russo brothers is that, by the end of Endgame, Thor was at his most powerful. "The difficult road that Thor’s traveled ultimately gave him strength. He was stronger than ever by the end of Endgame." This makes some kind of sense, as he had both Stormbreaker and Mjolnir at the start of that fight. Also, Thor might have been hesitant to bust out the lightning at first, but when half of his people are killed, Loki is killed, and the Hulk is beaten, what does he feasibly have to lose by going into the Awakened mode then? Even before that point, when his people are getting slaughtered, there's no scenario to me that makes any sense where Thor doesn't try his absolute hardest, and is still beaten that badly by the end of the fight. Even if you don't think Thor was at his post powerful at the end of Endgame, Thor, Iron man, and Cap with Mjolnir at the end of Endgame are far stronger than Thor and Valkyrie at the end of Ragnarok, and Thanos beat them all pretty easily. Also, the Thor/Stormbreaker feat at the end of Infinity War is somewhat moot because Thanos was obviously not using the stones to their full effect. If he were, he could just be murdering people left and right, but he actively decides not to do that. It makes more sense that he underestimated Thor than that Thor was stronger than the literal manifestation of power, time, space, mind, and soul in the universe. 

1 hour ago, AVP vs The Terminator said:

I also think there was an element of pride coming into Hela's fight with Thor. She could've easily stabbed him with infinite spikes until he died, but instead she engaged him at close range and with swordplay. My feeling is that she wanted to establish that she was Odin's true heir, while she'd have no compunctions whatsoever about just spamming some random invader like Thanos to death.

The argument that she was being prideful only makes sense for the Throne room fight. Past that point, on the bridge, Thor is actually landing big hits and she's actually throwing blades around, pretty clearly with the intent to kill, she just can't kill him. Valkyrie is also there, and despite having no reason to not just skewer her, she is either unable or unwilling.  She's not being prideful by leaving Valkyrie alive, because why would she care about Valkyrie? Valkyrie and Thor are just skilled enough to actually be a match for her, at least for a while. 

1 hour ago, AVP vs The Terminator said:

Again my main reason for feeling this way is that Thanos's showing against Scarlet Witch was just SO awful, like he had absolutely nothing up his sleeve to counter her whatsoever. If we go by prior showings then Scarlet Witch isn't even that strong, certainly not more powerful than Hela in Asgard. 

Yeah, but Hela isn't Scarlett Witch. Thanos has no way of dodging or blocking a massive AoE telekinetic strike, and Hela has no way of delivering one anyway. He's proven that he's more than capable of dodging, tanking, or blocking hits from many heavy hitters at once, he just wasn't prepared for Scarlett Witch's power ("I don't even know who you are"), and her particular power was a really good counter for him. It is a really bad anti-feat for him, but it's not really relevant here. Hela doesn't have Scarlett Witch's power, or a power that's similar at all. It's also worth noting that we don't even know that Scarlett Witch herself was powerful enough to kill or even substantially hurt him. She made him a sitting duck, so he did what he could to get out of that situation, but it's just as likely that he was afraid Thor would find him suspended in the air and decapitate him, rather than Scarlett Witch's power itself being the thing that kills him. 

1 hour ago, AVP vs The Terminator said:

There's also the fact that Hela can't die on her turf, which you mention as a NLF but I respectfully disagree there cept maybe that the power stone can pull it off. He'd have to cut loose with it though, if he fights the same way he did with the IG vs Strange and the others then I still think he gets skewered.

I don't see how it's not a NFL. It's practically the quintessential NFL. In fact, it's not even true, because she does die on her home turf. Somewhere between Thor's power and the power to destroy all of Asgard, Hela can be killed. That point might be the destruction of Asgard, but it's unreasonable to just assume that just because it's stated to be true, it's true. If Thanos had his sword and decapitated her, we should have every assumption that she would die. 

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13 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Word of God from the Russo brothers is that, by the end of Endgame, Thor was at his most powerful. "The difficult road that Thor’s traveled ultimately gave him strength. He was stronger than ever by the end of Endgame." This makes some kind of sense, as he had both Stormbreaker and Mjolnir at the start of that fight. Also, Thor might have been hesitant to bust out the lightning at first, but when half of his people are killed, Loki is killed, and the Hulk is beaten, what does he feasibly have to lose by going into the Awakened mode then? Even before that point, when his people are getting slaughtered, there's no scenario to me that makes any sense where Thor doesn't try his absolute hardest, and is still beaten that badly by the end of the fight. Even if you don't think Thor was at his post powerful at the end of Endgame, Thor, Iron man, and Cap with Mjolnir at the end of Endgame are far stronger than Thor and Valkyrie at the end of Ragnarok, and Thanos beat them all pretty easily. Also, the Thor/Stormbreaker feat at the end of Infinity War is somewhat moot because Thanos was obviously not using the stones to their full effect. If he were, he could just be murdering people left and right, but he actively decides not to do that. It makes more sense that he underestimated Thor than that Thor was stronger than the literal manifestation of power, time, space, mind, and soul in the universe. 

That's a fair point re: the Russos, thanks for bringing it to my attention. Straight up power isn't always the most crucial factor in a fight tho and I don't necessarily think a big concern of Waititi/the Russos was maintaining a cohesive power scale between their movies (clear statement from Ragnarok was that Thor is actually at his strongest without channeling his power through some kind of weapon, but the Russos largely ignored that for the sake of rule of cool and there wasn't even a mention of the awakened state in either IW or Endgame), and not to harp on about the Scarlet Witch showing when it is true Hela isn't the same but I do genuinely still believe it stands as a valid indicator of how Thanos can fare against somebody with a powerful ranged game if they use it properly. Especially given she didn't have anywhere near the scaling to make anyone think she could beat Thanos prior to that fight.

As far as Thanos not using the stones to their full effect, it seems like he never does when it comes to combat. I dunno if it's because the gauntlet harnesses their energy a certain way that he can't or if he just chooses not to or what, but I don't see any reason to believe he wouldn't be the same if he fought Hela. I can easily see a scenario where Thor didn't realize how dire things were until it was too late and by the point Loki got killed he had already been beaten up too badly to really unleash the lightning, but ik I'm getting too much into supposition at that point for it to be valid lol

13 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

I don't see how it's not a NFL. It's practically the quintessential NFL. In fact, it's not even true, because she does die on her home turf. Somewhere between Thor's power and the power to destroy all of Asgard, Hela can be killed. That point might be the destruction of Asgard, but it's unreasonable to just assume that just because it's stated to be true, it's true. If Thanos had his sword and decapitated her, we should have every assumption that she would die. 

Iunno, I thought what was being conveyed with Surtur was that he was able to kill her by destroying Asgard itself along with her. She died with her home turf, not on it. We need to take the writer's intentions into account with things like this and not just assume they dropped empty words into their script for no reason, they're the top authority on it after all. If we believe Odin's statement that Thor unleashing his true power is stronger than him (which again, felt like the writer telling us that this is the case) then the fact that he threw a whole lightning storm at Hela and was still certain he couldn't kill her is a pretty big deal, and while I do think he could pull it off with the power stone if he unleashes its real strength rather than fighting like a brawler like he did against the heroes I don't think straight decapitation or really anything he could accomplish under his own power would do it.

Nor do I really think he could decapitate her, honestly. She's faster and a smaller target than him and would presumably be keeping him at range if she accurately estimated how powerful he is in terms of brute strength.

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On 5/18/2020 at 12:45 PM, AVP vs The Terminator said:

That's a fair point re: the Russos, thanks for bringing it to my attention. Straight up power isn't always the most crucial factor in a fight tho and I don't necessarily think a big concern of Waititi/the Russos was maintaining a cohesive power scale between their movies (clear statement from Ragnarok was that Thor is actually at his strongest without channeling his power through some kind of weapon, but the Russos largely ignored that for the sake of rule of cool and there wasn't even a mention of the awakened state in either IW or Endgame), and not to harp on about the Scarlet Witch showing when it is true Hela isn't the same but I do genuinely still believe it stands as a valid indicator of how Thanos can fare against somebody with a powerful ranged game if they use it properly. Especially given she didn't have anywhere near the scaling to make anyone think she could beat Thanos prior to that fight.

As far as Thanos not using the stones to their full effect, it seems like he never does when it comes to combat. I dunno if it's because the gauntlet harnesses their energy a certain way that he can't or if he just chooses not to or what, but I don't see any reason to believe he wouldn't be the same if he fought Hela. I can easily see a scenario where Thor didn't realize how dire things were until it was too late and by the point Loki got killed he had already been beaten up too badly to really unleash the lightning, but ik I'm getting too much into supposition at that point for it to be valid lol

You're welcome. I don't disagree that narrative cohesion wasn't their top concern, but the statement still holds water. Word of God is that Thor is at his most powerful at the end of Endgame. Even if you don't believe that, him with Stormbreaker, Cap with Mjolnir, and Iron Man in his last suit are so much stronger than Thor and Valkyrie in Ragnarok, and Thanos beat them handily. The Scarlet Witch feat literally only shows that he had one bad matchup against her, when she was presumably at her most powerful. Spiderman, Iron Man, Star Lord, Dr. Strange, and many other opponents were also agile fighters who rely heavily on projectiles and Thanos had no real trouble beating them. All of those people are far closer in style to Hela than Scarlet Witch is.

On 5/18/2020 at 12:45 PM, AVP vs The Terminator said:

We need to take the writer's intentions into account with things like this and not just assume they dropped empty words into their script for no reason, they're the top authority on it after all. If we believe Odin's statement that Thor unleashing his true power is stronger than him (which again, felt like the writer telling us that this is the case) then the fact that he threw a whole lightning storm at Hela and was still certain he couldn't kill her is a pretty big deal, and while I do think he could pull it off with the power stone if he unleashes its real strength rather than fighting like a brawler like he did against the heroes I don't think straight decapitation or really anything he could accomplish under his own power would do it.

Nor do I really think he could decapitate her, honestly. She's faster and a smaller target than him and would presumably be keeping him at range if she accurately estimated how powerful he is in terms of brute strength.

I literally never said nor implied that they put empty words in their script. The words served a narrative function, I'm just saying they shouldn't be interpreted as literal. It's a NLF. We can both agree that if, say, Dr. Manhattan were to appear, he could atomize her without destroying Asgard. Obviously, Thanos wouldn't win that way. I'm just saying the statement shouldn't be interpreted literally.

Odin's statement to Thor is very nebulous, and Odin is such a non-presence in the MCU that Thor being more powerful than him means very little.

The decapitation thing was just an example. I don't know for sure that he would actually be able to, but I wouldn't put it past him honestly. Again, Thor, Cap, and Iron Man all at once is a lot to deal with, and with only his sword, he took them all on and won. His sword being able to destroy Cap's shield also means it can cut through the most durable substance we know of in the MCU at this point 

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9 hours ago, G4hardcore said:

Did Surtur kill Hela? 

He destroyed Asgard, as was told by Ragnarok, which in turn killed Hela.

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21 hours ago, Magnamax said:

He destroyed Asgard, as was told by Ragnarok, which in turn killed Hela.

There's an important distinction to make; did the impact from Surtur's doom sword kill Hela? Or was it Asgards destruction? Because if it takes Asgard being destroyed to kill Hela, Thanos can't win. 

 

I could see a power stone blast from Thanos having a virtually identical effect as Thor's "biggest" bolt of lightning. Give or take a mile of knock back.

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3 hours ago, G4hardcore said:

There's an important distinction to make; did the impact from Surtur's doom sword kill Hela? Or was it Asgards destruction? Because if it takes Asgard being destroyed to kill Hela, Thanos can't win. 

 

I could see a power stone blast from Thanos having a virtually identical effect as Thor's "biggest" bolt of lightning. Give or take a mile of knock back.

I'm not entirely sure, from looking at the context within the story, it seems that Surtur destroyed Asgard and then Hela went with it. To be honest, it would help if I knew anything within comics-version Hela to better contextualize her ability, but it seems in the movie that you must destroy Asgard to get rid of Hela.

 

Now, it stands to reason that she could be overpowered as well. They somehow imprisoned her in Ragnorok, right?

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On 5/24/2020 at 4:45 PM, Magnamax said:

I'm not entirely sure, from looking at the context within the story, it seems that Surtur destroyed Asgard and then Hela went with it. To be honest, it would help if I knew anything within comics-version Hela to better contextualize her ability, but it seems in the movie that you must destroy Asgard to get rid of Hela.

 

Now, it stands to reason that she could be overpowered as well. They somehow imprisoned her in Ragnorok, right?

I don't know, can she be overpowered? I think if Odin could have killed her, he would have (and debatably should have). For some reason, containing her seemed to be the first viable option. She was definitely a threat to the well-being of Asgard, and I'm fairly certain Odin had to know Hela was stronger than Thor... I mean, why else insinuate that the destruction of Asgard would not necessarily mean it's end?

 

Base Thanos gets owned by anyone with a sling ring; in other words, banishing someone is far simpler than outright defeating or overpowering someone. I think Odin couldn't kill Hela, because Odin couldn't kill Asgard.

 

But then, who decided Fenris should live? Wtf.

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2 hours ago, G4hardcore said:

I don't know, can she be overpowered? I think if Odin could have killed her, he would have (and debatably should have). For some reason, containing her seemed to be the first viable option. She was definitely a threat to the well-being of Asgard, and I'm fairly certain Odin had to know Hela was stronger than Thor... I mean, why else insinuate that the destruction of Asgard would not necessarily mean it's end?

 

Base Thanos gets owned by anyone with a sling ring; in other words, banishing someone is far simpler than outright defeating or overpowering someone. I think Odin couldn't kill Hela, because Odin couldn't kill Asgard.

 

But then, who decided Fenris should live? Wtf.

It may be my addled mind, but I can't remember how Odin imprisoned her...

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2 hours ago, G4hardcore said:

I don't know, can she be overpowered? I think if Odin could have killed her, he would have (and debatably should have). For some reason, containing her seemed to be the first viable option. She was definitely a threat to the well-being of Asgard, and I'm fairly certain Odin had to know Hela was stronger than Thor... I mean, why else insinuate that the destruction of Asgard would not necessarily mean it's end?

 

Base Thanos gets owned by anyone with a sling ring; in other words, banishing someone is far simpler than outright defeating or overpowering someone. I think Odin couldn't kill Hela, because Odin couldn't kill Asgard.

 

But then, who decided Fenris should live? Wtf.

Hela, evil as she was, was also Odin's daughter. Maybe he just couldn't bring himself to do it. Purely speculative of course, because we're never given the answer

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