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Modern Earth Military VS Galactic Empire


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#141 Ruinus

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 10:20 PM

So you'd roll over and play dead, people don't like being opressed, that's all I'm saying even if the Empire wins this intial encounter and gets the surrender, the will eventually lose. They don't have a palpitine or Trawn to sway the people. Viva la resistance.


:P
I didn't realize this suddenly turned into a "Weed out the cowardly traitors of Earth" thread.

But yes, why? Because I'm not a retard who can't see that between the options "Pay taxes to the Empire instead of to the US government" and "see my hometown turned into a giant radioactive crater" that the first option is the best one. Especially if the first option can be done without any loss of life.

Also, why would the Empire eventually lose? So far you haven't actually made any sort of positive statement backing up your argument beyond "rar the Revolution! Human spirit rar!". How is a small modern rebellion going to overcome the Imperial forces?

#142 Skirmisher

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 10:26 PM

Tech is everything if the combatants is one modern nation fighting another with 300 km/h energy shielded tanks, tanks with nuclear bomb firepower, fighters that reach the Moon and back with kiloton bombs and FTL communications along with military bases that are also shielded.

Except Ruinus... they don't have Juggernauts they have Repulsor Tanks.... you know... because they're Imperial Army, not Special Forces.


I mean, what, do you expect Earth to be filled with irrational suicidal idiots...

Actually yes... yes the world is filled with irrational suicidal idiots... and they'd fight the Imperials, in fact the presence of these Aggressive Extraterrestrial Invaders would actually spur all of Earth on to Greater Feats of Cooperation... Hezbollah might actually fight along side Izrael against these Invaders... Al Qaeda and US soldiers would fight alongside each other against the Empire...

It would be a good time for the People of Earth as they come together for the first time in World History to face a Common Threat... and you know, world leaders will be cranking out the Propaganda insuring that even the Civilians are whipped up into a frenzy of Freedom Fighters.


Also don't be silly, I'd hate if the Galactic "land ships on protesters" Empire invaded Earth. But if they did, I'd be one of the people telling everyone that surrender is the way to go. Not surrendering would simply result in alot of smoking craters on Earth.

Assuming that they have that equipment with them at the time... something that a Garrison Force doesn't have access to in large numbers...

#143 The Technomancer of Nesh

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 10:27 PM

:P
I didn't realize this suddenly turned into a "Weed out the cowardly traitors of Earth" thread.

But yes, why? Because I'm not a retard who can't see that between the options "Pay taxes to the Empire instead of to the US government" and "see my hometown turned into a giant radioactive crater" that the first option is the best one. Especially if the first option can be done without any loss of life.

Also, why would the Empire eventually lose? So far you haven't actually made any sort of positive statement backing up your argument beyond "rar the Revolution! Human spirit rar!". How is a small modern rebellion going to overcome the Imperial forces?

Thew same way the United States won independence, the same way the Ethiopians fought of the French, and so many other examples.. Tactics and terrain familiarity. The IRA was able to fight the English to a standstill not to mention the Imperial forces have to keep track of six billion people. They're spread tin man and we're a largely democratic world, a lot of people will want that back.

#144 Ruinus

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 10:39 PM

Except Ruinus... they don't have Juggernauts they have Repulsor Tanks.... you know... because they're Imperial Army, not Special Forces.



I was reading over the Imperial Army page on Wookieepedia, and apparently repulsorcraft are that, vehicles with repulsors, but "heavy tanks" are almost everything else: walkers, Turbo tanks, etc etc. I dunno why. I guess the "heavy" part is speak for "doesn't float" or whatever.

Actually yes... yes the world is filled with irrational suicidal idiots... and they'd fight the Imperials, in fact the presence of these Aggressive Extraterrestrial Invaders would actually spur all of Earth on to Greater Feats of Cooperation... Hezbollah might actually fight along side Izrael against these Invaders... Al Qaeda and US soldiers would fight alongside each other against the Empire...

It would be a good time for the People of Earth as they come together for the first time in World History to face a Common Threat... and you know, world leaders will be cranking out the Propaganda insuring that even the Civilians are wiped up into a frenzy of Freedom Fighters.


Except that no, they wouldn't. Because again, they are facing a military force that can rain down destruction on any city on the face of the planet, knock out our satellite network with no trouble at all, especially considering that the Empire doesn't even actually remove local leaders from positions of power. They'd still be there, most of the laws would be the same, all that woudl be added is that they pay taxes to the Empire now.

Assuming that they have that equipment with them at the time... something that a Garrison Force doesn't have access to in large numbers...


Alright, Since your the OP. How many missiles, torpedoes, bombs does each TIE/sa have? How long till their resources run out?

Really, I just noticed how much the set up lacks for the victory conditions for the GE. Of course it's easy to argue that Earth might win eventually, since you didn't bother to say what the GE has to do to win. Get everyone to surrender? How many sorties will the TIEs be able to do before they are useless? How long till the HQ sends a FTL message and it has a response? How long till GE reinforcmenets arrive?

#145 Ruinus

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 10:53 PM

Thew same way the United States won independence,


Both sides had the exact same tech. One side wasn't fielding jet fighters against sail boats. Also, the French, Prussian and other armies showing up and helping America might have had something to do with the Revolutionary Army suddenly getting it's act together.

the same way the Ethiopians fought of the French,


Unfamiliar with this conflict. Maybe you mean the war between Italy and Ethiopia, where Italy was defeated in WWII and had to give up Ethiopia?

and so many other examples.. Tactics and terrain familiarity. The IRA was able to fight the English to a standstill not to mention the Imperial forces have to keep track of six billion people. They're spread tin man and we're a largely democratic world, a lot of people will want that back.


All examples of nations fighting other nations with similar tech disparity, not conflitcs were nations with bows and arrows fought off men in tanks and assault rifles. I guess the conquest of the New World had nothing to do with the firearms the Europeans brought? Or their armor or cannons, or their horses? (Along with their plagues). I guess all the mega-fauna that lived on the Earth just happened to disappear for no good reason around the same time man discovered tools?

I wonder how tactics (the lowest level of military planning) are going to be useful when your enemy has all the strategic advantages? I wonder when all 6 billion people of Earth suddenly became violent revolutionaries rather than harmless civilians that have no military training at all?

I forgot that your argument is a bunch of vague statements about revolution and tactics and "it happened before".

Tell me how Earth goes on a guerilla warfare campaign after it's surrendered if the Empire orders all military vehicles and assets destroyed?

#146 The Technomancer of Nesh

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 11:07 PM

Both sides had the exact same tech. One side wasn't fielding jet fighters against sail boats. Also, the French, Prussian and other armies showing up and helping America might have had something to do with the Revolutionary Army suddenly getting it's act together.



Unfamiliar with this conflict. Maybe you mean the war between Italy and Ethiopia, where Italy was defeated in WWII and had to give up Ethiopia?



All examples of nations fighting other nations with similar tech disparity, not conflitcs were nations with bows and arrows fought off men in tanks and assault rifles. I guess the conquest of the New World had nothing to do with the firearms the Europeans brought? Or their armor or cannons, or their horses? (Along with their plagues). I guess all the mega-fauna that lived on the Earth just happened to disappear for no good reason around the same time man discovered tools?

I wonder how tactics (the lowest level of military planning) are going to be useful when your enemy has all the strategic advantages? I wonder when all 6 billion people of Earth suddenly became violent revolutionaries rather than harmless civilians that have no military training at all?

I forgot that your argument is a bunch of vague statements about revolution and tactics and "it happened before".

Tell me how Earth goes on a guerilla warfare campaign after it's surrendered if the Empire orders all military vehicles and assets destroyed?

Yews I meant the Italian invasin, may bad. Do you really think Earth would give all their weapons, no some will be hid. Since when did every Imperial soldier become a cold heartless monster who would be fine bombing cities full of millions of humans? There's a possiblity of turncoats there. Onnce the Imperials occpy their forces will be spread thin an guess what they are going to find their Empire no longer exists and they're stuck on a primive planet with nowhere to go where ant sane native will at least secretly want to make them pay and get some semblance of freedom back. It won't end well wor them.

#147 Ruinus

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 11:23 PM

Yews I meant the Italian invasin, may bad. Do you really think Earth would give all their weapons, no some will be hid. Since when did every Imperial soldier become a cold heartless monster who would be fine bombing cities full of millions of humans?


Some might be hidden, but probalby not enough to mean anything.
A while ago on page 1 Skir said there where just as many stormtroopers as troopers. The stormtroopers are the guys who don't bat an eyelash when the orders come down to kill innocent people, or burn down towns or cities. Every single soldier doesn't need to be fine with it, just the ones who are fine with it are the ones that need to be ordered to do it.

There's a possiblity of turncoats there. Onnce the Imperials occpy their forces will be spread thin an guess what they are going to find their Empire no longer exists and they're stuck on a primive planet with nowhere to go where ant sane native will at least secretly want to make them pay and get some semblance of freedom back. It won't end well wor them.


That wormhole is still there. It can connect them back to their galaxy (or so I'm assuming, the OP isn't clear). All they have to do is send a message or ship back through it.

#148 Skirmisher

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 11:35 PM

I was reading over the Imperial Army page on Wookieepedia, and apparently repulsorcraft are that, vehicles with repulsors, but "heavy tanks" are almost everything else: walkers, Turbo tanks, etc etc. I dunno why. I guess the "heavy" part is speak for "doesn't float" or whatever.

Except Ruinus... the 1-H is a Heavy Tank...


Except that no, they wouldn't. Because again, they are facing a military force that can rain down destruction on any city on the face of the planet, knock out our satellite network with no trouble at all, especially considering that the Empire doesn't even actually remove local leaders from positions of power. They'd still be there, most of the laws would be the same, all that woudl be added is that they pay taxes to the Empire now.

Hmm... except that you seem to be under the Delusion that they would be able to do this rather easily... it's not as if they have the ability to rain down thousands of these low Kiloton level Bombs with impunity, and it's safe to assume that the Unshielded TIE's would be a Prime Target for SAMs which you once again UTTERLY FAIL to take into account.

How would the Imperial Forces know which cities would have these World Leaders?
How would the Imperial Forces know where the Major Military Installations like NORAD and other Nations counterparts are located?
Even assuming that taking out our Satellites would actually work to disrupt communication... we still have Basic Radio and Land Lines...

All they would have done is take away our Internet, Satellite Cell Phones, and GPS... but guess what? We actually don't need that stuff. Because the Military is Actually prepared for something like that happening, and to figure that our Resolve would be broken by a light bombing of Low Yield Bombs that are targeted at Random places that Seem like they might be Strategic to someone who doesn't know the situation, and a crippling of our internet services... Just seems stupid... Especially considering the fact that TIEs are Fairly Fragile things to wipe out... Just one missile wreaking it's solar panel would knock the thing out of the air, and while that would only disable it in space... it has the Rapidly approaching ground to worry about.

So In light of the fact that our Air Forces are fairly Even in Numbers to theirs and that we actually have SAM sites that can wipe them out... it stands to reason that Their TIE advantage isn't as Great as you make it out to be.


Alright, Since your the OP. How many missiles, torpedoes, bombs does each TIE/sa have? How long till their resources run out?

Really, I just noticed how much the set up lacks for the victory conditions for the GE. Of course it's easy to argue that Earth might win eventually, since you didn't bother to say what the GE has to do to win. Get everyone to surrender? How many sorties will the TIEs be able to do before they are useless? How long till the HQ sends a FTL message and it has a response? How long till GE reinforcmenets arrive?

Frankly these TIE's were meant to be a Garrison Force, they're not kitted out for Full Scale War... that's why they have the Numbers Advantage.


Win Conditions for them are Total Subjugation of the Native Population.

TIE Fighters are only equipped with Basic Model Weaponry
TIE Bombers are equipped with 4 Proton Torps, 8 Concussion Missiles, and 8 Proton Bombs. But Bases are only stocked with 2 more of each type per TIE Bomber. With another full payload of Bombs.

Remember these are Low Kiloton level bombs, and would probably take a full flight of Bombers to devastate an average city.

If they make it past our defenses that is...

#149 Ruinus

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 12:07 AM

Except Ruinus... the 1-H is a Heavy Tank...



It's a repulsorcraft too. A turbo is a heavy tank, since heavy tanks appear to be anything that isn't a repulsorcraft.

Hmm... except that you seem to be under the Delusion that they would be able to do this rather easily... it's not as if they have the ability to rain down thousands of these low Kiloton level Bombs with impunity, and it's safe to assume that the Unshielded TIE's would be a Prime Target for SAMs which you once again UTTERLY FAIL to take into account.


5 TIE/sa's per base. 1,000 PGBs means 5,000 TIE/sa. Each with 12 missiles (proton and concussion). 60,000 kiloton missiles, just based on one single loadout for the TIE/sa.

Also, about the SAMs. Provide maps, where are these SAMs? Really, all I'm hearing from the other side is "SAMS!" Ok, sure. Where are they? How many? I want to see a map showing a complete coverage of all of the Earth by SAMs.

How would the Imperial Forces know which cities would have these World Leaders?
How would the Imperial Forces know where the Major Military Installations like NORAD and other Nations counterparts are located?
Even assuming that taking out our Satellites would actually work to disrupt communication... we still have Basic Radio and Land Lines...


They woudln't need to. They'd simply need to know which cities have alot of people, which is easy to figure out.

They wouldn't, they'd need to know which cities to attack. The big ones.

GPS and satellite imaging would be gone. Militaries would need another way to see troop movements.

All they would have done is take away our Internet, Satellite Cell Phones, and GPS... but guess what? We actually don't need that stuff. Because the Military is Actually prepared for something like that happening, and to figure that our Resolve would be broken by a light bombing of Low Yield Bombs that are targeted at Random places that Seem like they might be Strategic to someone who doesn't know the situation, and a crippling of our internet services... Just seems stupid... Especially considering the fact that TIEs are Fairly Fragile things to wipe out... Just one missile wreaking it's solar panel would knock the thing out of the air, and while that would only disable it in space... it has the Rapidly approaching ground to worry about.

So In light of the fact that our Air Forces are fairly Even in Numbers to theirs and that we actually have SAM sites that can wipe them out... it stands to reason that Their TIE advantage isn't as Great as you make it out to be.


I'd like to know the effectiveness of a military without satellite imaging and GPS. How would, say, the US army fight after that?

Again, where are these SAMs? Maps, I want to see maps of SAM coverage, how fast they can be deployed and their numbers. I have never once said that a TIE is invulnerable, I have, however, been saying that their ability to pick and choose targets makes them hard to kill enemies, since they can show up in areas that don't have fighter or SAM support.

Frankly these TIE's were meant to be a Garrison Force, they're not kitted out for Full Scale War... that's why they have the Numbers Advantage.


Win Conditions for them are Total Subjugation of the Native Population.

TIE Fighters are only equipped with Basic Model Weaponry
TIE Bombers are equipped with 4 Proton Torps, 8 Concussion Missiles, and 8 Proton Bombs. But Bases are only stocked with 2 more of each type per TIE Bomber. With another full payload of Bombs.

Remember these are Low Kiloton level bombs, and would probably take a full flight of Bombers to devastate an average city.

If they make it past our defenses that is...


Each TIE/sa has about 12 kT, if a squadron is about 12 ships, then 144 kTs are being carried around by a single TIE/sa squadron. About those SAMs and fighters. Again, I want to know how many SAMs are covering New York.

#150 Ruinus

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 12:09 AM

Actually, if the win condition for the GE of "Total Subjugation of the Native Population." IS in fact "total subjucation of every single human being on Earth" then there is no way the GE will win. There's simply no method available where all 6,697,254,041 of us will be subjugated.

#151 darthvader45

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:45 PM

Here's a Google Maps interpretation of armed SAM sites: Posted Image
So, the planet is pretty much covered. ^_^



Even the U.S. has several military bases, each with several of these: Posted Image

I highly doubt TIE Fighters would just vaporize (vape) all of 'em and then attack Earth's cities with impunity. They'd be shot down quite fast. Most SAMs are built with a high-tech targeting system. Plus, considering stormtrooper armor can be pierced by flint arrows, I suppose our soldiers could fill 'em with lead and use rocket launchers on AT-ATs and AT-STs, while scout bikes would be easily taken down by shooting the rider. Then howitzers to take down the bases, which are usually stocking explosive munitions of some kind. Finally: The numbers game. We'd have the Empire outnumbered more than 10-1. Result: Humans blow away the Empire, while still taking heavy casualties. We then team up with the Rebellion and whoop some GE arse. Then I silently assassinate the Emperor with a lightsaber by cloaking my Force presence.

Edited by darthvader45, 05 March 2013 - 02:57 PM.


#152 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 03:04 PM

Can stormtrooper armor be pierced by arrows? I'm sure you're talking about the Battle of Endor, but I don't remember that.

Tie fighters have enough power to achieve escape velocity. That makes them much faster than any SAM that currently exists.

#153 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 03:27 PM

What the hell?

#154 force_echo

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 03:38 PM

Modern day infantry armor/weapons are leagues more efficient than the Stormtrooper equivalent.

#155 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:16 PM

LOL!

Somebody revived this. I didn't realize how old the thread was when I posted.

#156 TheJediRanger

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:03 PM

The Star Wars Fan Media page on facebook is acting this out right now. you guys should head on over and check it out if your interesting!



#157 DSkillz

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:06 PM

Welcome to electricferret, TheJediRanger. Hope you enjoy your stay. It's not really good form to post in older topics, especially to advertise for other sites.






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