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#61 LegendX

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 02:28 PM

Some people get hit in the vest with pistols and die...

#62 Jason Redfield

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 02:46 PM

There's still the fact that the Ewok "arrow" (which is so pathetic that it barely qualifies for the word) managed to penetrate the armor.

And he even points out that there are only a few things that could have cracked that armor: rolling down a hill, getting hit by an Ewok, etc. Needless to say, I wouldn't be optimistic about its chances of stopping a 5.56 NATO round.

So, basically the GE wins through TIE Fighter spam of epic proportions? Or would that count as using orbital assets...? :P

#63 force_echo

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 02:47 PM

Darkstar didn't prove that that crack was from rolling down a hill. If it was, you'd think he could point out similar cracks in the other troopers armor, or even similar ones on the same troopers armor. Also, I assume you mean a hold-out blaster? Diplomacy blaster turns up no results on Wookieepedia.

Also no, in the movies it takes one or two hits to drop a stormtrooper, we don't know if they are actually dead or alive as we can't see them. They could be knocked out for all we know.

Provide evidence that Imperial officers are idiots. I'm sure you can provide that some are idiots, but not all of them or the majority.

EDIT: I like the idea that because a trooper takes one or two hits to be droped then the armor must suck. It's almost as if real life armor can take serious beatings from high powered weaponry before it fails. So, a soldier in a bullet proof vest takes how much of a clip to be dropped?

Thats what I meant, a hold-out blaster, which is the weakest kind IIRC.

Well, to provide a generalization, we would have to look at huge conflicts. How long had the Republic lasted before the GCW? Millenia right? How long did the GE last? 16 years? Overthrown by what? One of the smallest porportion rebellions in all Sci-fi. How bout the Imperial Remnant? Relegated to a weak orginization of Moffs capable of doing absolutely nothing of importance until Sidious' first and second resurrection, after Sidious FINALLY died for good, did the Imperial Remnant get to a higher importance in the galaxy? Sure, led by Pellaeon and Daala. And under Fel, the Remnant became just as good as the Republic. What I'm saying is, the power of the GE is always in a few extraordinary individuals, the "small guys" as history suggests, are pretty useless. So that's why I made the point that by themselves the GE Officers are pretty dang stupid, but united by a "Super-Officer" suddenly the GE machine becomes capable of taking down the YV and doing super-feats of awesomeness.

#64 force_echo

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 02:50 PM

The GE is weird now, its in a Cold War with the Galactic Aliance while technically being a faction of the Galactic alliance. Anyway, my point is, if Palleon, or Daala, or Fett, or Vader, or somebody named in the SW Universe is on the feild, the Imperials win. If not, they lose.

#65 Ruinus

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 02:51 PM

There's still the fact that the Ewok "arrow" (which is so pathetic that it barely qualifies for the word) managed to penetrate the armor.

And he even points out that there are only a few things that could have cracked that armor: rolling down a hill, getting hit by an Ewok, etc. Needless to say, I wouldn't be optimistic about its chances of stopping a 5.56 NATO round.

So, basically the GE wins through TIE Fighter spam of epic proportions? Or would that count as using orbital assets...? :P


The arrow wasn't shown to actually penetrate the armor, especially considering that Scout trooper armor has a pack. The trooper lets out a yelp before doubling over. But since the arrow isn't shown to dig in, past the pack, it's doubtful it actually penetrated the armor and actually hit the soldier inside.

The black body glove, on the other hand, can be pierced by arrows. Again, if the arrows can crack the armor so easily, you'd think he'd be able to show more instances of this, at best he shows on trooper going "Argh!" when an arrow hits his back, and one trooper with a cracked shoulderplate. The crack on the armor could have easily occured elsewhere, or a plain defect in the armor.

#66 Ruinus

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 02:56 PM

Thats what I meant, a hold-out blaster, which is the weakest kind IIRC.

Well, to provide a generalization, we would have to look at huge conflicts. How long had the Republic lasted before the GCW? Millenia right? How long did the GE last? 16 years? Overthrown by what? One of the smallest porportion rebellions in all Sci-fi.


Overthrown by the right hand man of the Emperor being moved by his son's plight and turned on the leader. The Rebellion's only contribution to this was that it put Luke in a position to do this. Otherwise, it was little more than an annoyance to the Empire.

Even after Palpatine's death the Empire falls because the Moffs started fighting each other.

How bout the Imperial Remnant? Relegated to a weak orginization of Moffs capable of doing absolutely nothing of importance until Sidious' first and second resurrection, after Sidious FINALLY died for good, did the Imperial Remnant get to a higher importance in the galaxy? Sure, led by Pellaeon and Daala. And under Fel, the Remnant became just as good as the Republic.


Irrelevant. We are talking about the Galactic Empire, not the shattered remains that came after it.

What I'm saying is, the power of the GE is always in a few extraordinary individuals, the "small guys" as history suggests, are pretty useless. So that's why I made the point that by themselves the GE Officers are pretty dang stupid, but united by a "Super-Officer" suddenly the GE machine becomes capable of taking down the YV and doing super-feats of awesomeness.


And this is a weak argument. The GE was purposefully built on one single concentrated seat of power, the Emperor. Had it not been for Vader's long lost son suddenly appearing up again, taking up the path of a Jedi, and turning Vader against the Emperor, the Empire would have continued on past the Rebellion.

BTW: the Empire's centralized leadership =/= Imperial idiots. The tactical and strategic intelligence of individaul officers has no bearing at all on how their government is set up.

Again, provide evidence that the majority of the Empire's officers are idiots and will lose.

#67 ND7

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 02:59 PM

The arrow wasn't shown to actually penetrate the armor, especially considering that Scout trooper armor has a pack. The trooper lets out a yelp before doubling over. But since the arrow isn't shown to dig in, past the pack, it's doubtful it actually penetrated the armor and actually hit the soldier inside.

The black body glove, on the other hand, can be pierced by arrows. Again, if the arrows can crack the armor so easily, you'd think he'd be able to show more instances of this, at best he shows on trooper going "Argh!" when an arrow hits his back, and one trooper with a cracked shoulderplate. The crack on the armor could have easily occured elsewhere, or a plain defect in the armor.



But Ruin, I have a couple of questions.

1: Could the armour take a grenade going off very close, or a couple of shotgun shells or rilfle rounds?

2: If the Trooper were to lose his weapon, do the Troopers know any kinds of martial arts that would help them out if a solider tried to fist-fight with them?

3: If captured, would a Trooper reveal information?

4: Could something like a machete, or a axe pierce the Armour, what abount blunt force trauma(Like getting hit in the head with a baseball bat.)

#68 Ruinus

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 03:03 PM

The GE is weird now, its in a Cold War with the Galactic Aliance while technically being a faction of the Galactic alliance. Anyway, my point is, if Palleon, or Daala, or Fett, or Vader, or somebody named in the SW Universe is on the feild, the Imperials win. If not, they lose.


Galactic Empire =/= Imperial Remnant. The IR is the government that shows up in the wake of the GEs collapse, and though somewhat based on it, it left the Emperor behind as a centralized seat of power (in the IR the Moffs elected a Supreme Commander), and the pro-human bent was removed.

Anyway, my point is: Show evidence that the majority of officers are inept and unable to come up with a plan (one, I remember you, that I came up with on the spot). Saying "everyone knows this" isn't evidence.

#69 Ruinus

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 03:19 PM

But Ruin, I have a couple of questions.

1: Could the armour take a grenade going off very close, or a couple of shotgun shells or rilfle rounds?

2: If the Trooper were to lose his weapon, do the Troopers know any kinds of martial arts that would help them out if a solider tried to fist-fight with them?

3: If captured, would a Trooper reveal information?

4: Could something like a machete, or a axe pierce the Armour, what abount blunt force trauma(Like getting hit in the head with a baseball bat.)


1: Presumably the grenade would still kill the man by punching through the black body glove areas of the armor. And if the rifles were firing large rounds, specifically armor piercing or hit the visor or body glove then yes, they could pierce the armor. A handgun, for instance, would probably do nothing. A rifle firing non-AP or large rounds would probably also not do anything. The trooper would still feel the "punch" of the bullet, but wouldn't have their armor cracked.

2: Their armor:
The gloves were powered up during Hand-to-Hand combat (power gloves). Presumably, like all soldiers, they receive some sort of CQC training.

3: I doubt they would. Stormtroopers know they are expendable.

4: Doubtful. Young Jedi Knights: Lightsabers
"Qorl stood inside the training chamber holding a wicked-looking spear in his black-wrapped left hand. His droid replacement gripped the gleaming shaft with enough force to dent the metal." ...
"He cocked his droid arm back - and hurled the deadly weapon ..."
"Norys slammed into the wall, his helmet ringing against the hard metal bulkhead. His vision sparkled with impending unconsciousness." ...
"He looked down at his chest in amazement and saw only a nick in the white armor where the spear had struck."

Qorl, who had a droid arm, throws a spear with such force that it knocks Norys back against a wall, and only barely manages to stracth the armor. If they hit the black body glove though, then it's a different story. Of course, a hit with sufficient force will knock out the stormtrooper (the Ewoks threw rocks down at the stormtroopers on Endor. The helmets were fine, the guys inside weren't.)

#70 TheJ0ke

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 03:33 PM

But Ruin, I have a couple of questions.

1: Could the armour take a grenade going off very close, or a couple of shotgun shells or rilfle rounds?

2: If the Trooper were to lose his weapon, do the Troopers know any kinds of martial arts that would help them out if a solider tried to fist-fight with them?

3: If captured, would a Trooper reveal information?

4: Could something like a machete, or a axe pierce the Armour, what abount blunt force trauma(Like getting hit in the head with a baseball bat.)

Not Ruinus, but I'll take a crack at it.

1a. Depends on the type of grenade. If it's a frag, probably not (at least not against the plated areas). A concussion grenade might be able to harm the trooper behind the armor.
1b. Again depends on the type. Some of the larger (specifically armor piercing) rounds probably could. Smaller caliber rounds would not get through though.

2. Why wouldn't an Imperial Trooper know at least basic techniques? They are still well trained soldiers. Particularly the stormtroopers.

3. What? You mean under torture? Eventually some would I'm sure.

4a. Machetes and other sword-like slashing weapons would not. Things like icepicks or other weapons that concentrate a large amount of force into a small point might be able to damage the armor.
4b. I'm pretty sure that blunt force would do almost no damage beyond whiplash.

#71 Ruinus

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 03:58 PM

Pretty much.

#72 TheJ0ke

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 04:24 PM

Also, there was some talk earlier about whether or not the Empire had a navy. I'm pretty sure that they had at least some form of a "wet" navy. After all, they do have specialized aquatic troops...
Also, if I remember correctly, they did have some form of floating base.

I'm not sure if they would actually have any of this though in this situation...

#73 Ruinus

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 04:40 PM

They do have some submarine and ocean ships now that I remember (the AT-AT swimmer and some submarines). The PGBs also come in naval versions, but that depends on how Skirmisher wants us to treat NA. Did the GE land purely on North American land, or in the area and thus the seas nearby?

#74 sirmethos

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 04:55 PM

Nah. Not at all.

http://www.st-v-sw.n...trooparmor.html

Scroll down to II.



http://starwars.wiki...rmtrooper_armor

#75 Skirmisher

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 05:00 PM

Ok, Maybe I went a little overboard on the Bases... time for a Cut.

And they only have TIE/ln and TIE/se at these bases.

#76 force_echo

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 05:00 PM

Im pretty sure the GE could just adapt some gorund vehicles with extended hover tech. to form a wet navy if needed. In an answer to an earlier question, the stormtroopers have mental conditioning in place, not giving up information is part of the conditioning I would assume.

#77 force_echo

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 05:06 PM

They do have some submarine and ocean ships now that I remember (the AT-AT swimmer and some submarines). The PGBs also come in naval versions, but that depends on how Skirmisher wants us to treat NA. Did the GE land purely on North American land, or in the area and thus the seas nearby?

If the GE outnumbered the rebellion by trillions of soldiers, and the Rebellion still won major victories against the GE, they only started as a "mere annoyance", in the full swing of the GCW the emperor was dedicated in crushing the Rebellion.

#78 Jason Redfield

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 05:17 PM

The arrow wasn't shown to actually penetrate the armor, especially considering that Scout trooper armor has a pack. The trooper lets out a yelp before doubling over. But since the arrow isn't shown to dig in, past the pack, it's doubtful it actually penetrated the armor and actually hit the soldier inside.

The black body glove, on the other hand, can be pierced by arrows. Again, if the arrows can crack the armor so easily, you'd think he'd be able to show more instances of this, at best he shows on trooper going "Argh!" when an arrow hits his back, and one trooper with a cracked shoulderplate. The crack on the armor could have easily occured elsewhere, or a plain defect in the armor.


You're not getting the point. The arrow was clearly embedded in the armor -- it didn't bounce off, or fall out after only a little penetration. It is IN the armor. If it manages to achieve even partial penetration, then you could expect a modern bullet, which is a MUCH better penetrator, to achieve complete penetration. And the fact that he yells implies that the arrow did some harm to him, as well.

As for the cracked shoulder-pad: it could have occurred anywhere? Alright, but from what? There aren't many threats in the area other than Ewoks and well... hills. So either he fell down the hill and it cracked or an Ewok managed to crack it. Not much room for interpretation there, and either way it speaks volumes about the weakness of the armor. The fact that it could be a simple defect doesn't encourage much confidence in the stuff, either.


http://starwars.wiki...rmtrooper_armor


Err, and? I suppose you think you're clever. Not really. I was well aware of that article and the details of what it says years ago. Hell, I even acknowledged it in previous posts. Either way, that's a wiki, and I've yet to have seen specific instances from canon to back its info up. My source is the movie itself.

#79 TheJ0ke

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 05:21 PM

Im pretty sure the GE could just adapt some gorund vehicles with extended hover tech. to form a wet navy if needed. In an answer to an earlier question, the stormtroopers have mental conditioning in place, not giving up information is part of the conditioning I would assume.

Yes, but eventually some would likely give out.

If the GE outnumbered the rebellion by trillions of soldiers, and the Rebellion still won major victories against the GE, they only started as a "mere annoyance", in the full swing of the GCW the emperor was dedicated in crushing the Rebellion.

This was only because of Luke. The Empire could have easily crushed the ENTIRE Rebellion during the Battle of Endor. The only reason they lost that was because the Emperor wanted to get control of Luke and as such left the rebels alive, only having a small fraction of the total forces engage in skirmishes with the rebel ships.

#80 Skirmisher

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 05:57 PM

Posted Image


Imperial Forces
1,500,000 Imperial Soldiers
160,000 Stormtroopers
13,000 Repulsor Craft
23,000 Tanks
2000 AT-AT's
2000 AT-ST's
6000 TIE/ln Fighters
1000 TIE/sa Bombers


Vs

Active		Reserve 		ParamilitaryUSA 	 	1,580,255 	 864,547 		11,035CAN 	 	65,722 	 	33,967 		4,554MEXI 	267,506 		39,899 		36,500CUBA 	49,000 		1,159,000 	26,500GrLnd	2658 		5350 		0Carib	58,443		1458		17,000CenAm	55,762		134,463		65,336Total		2,079,346	2,238,684	160,925
Grand total of Armed Soldiers: 4,478,955

Tanks

USA 13,000
CAN 205
MEX 1,171
CUB 1,600

Total Tanks: 15,976


Aircraft

Fighter	Bomber	AttackUSA	3,443 	171 		3,185CAN	?		?		103MEX	?		?		107CUB	?		?		110Guat	?		?		10
Grand Total Combat Aircraft: 7129



Notes on Equipment
The F22 Raptor could easily handle a swarm of TIE/ln as it is easily able to out speed it and out turn it and out shoot it. The only advantage the TIE has over the Raptor is it's ability to leave the earths Atmosphere. However, without the need of Satellites these fighters and bombers can Easily be tracked and shot at with ground based SAM sites.

As well, nowhere does it say that TIE/sa Bombers drop High Yield ordnance, at best they have bombs in the Couple Tons of TNT range... which is similar to large ordnance bombs of Modern Nations.




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