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Master Chief vs Commander Shepard vs Marcus Fenix


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#61 Jason Redfield

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 06:07 PM

Yeah, basically what it boils down to is that the Both Sides put alot of effort and money into painting it black and white.

Pinnacle stated that it was superior, even through their suspension rig for the disks was horrible and the plates Denatured under sweat and diesel fuel. But that could EASILY be fixed with a proper rig and a coat of enamel.

But the Military was stung by the PR campaign that Pinnacle sprung on them and decided to utterly annihilate them, regardless of what benefits their armour system could provide.

As for Weight, the Dragon Skin is only 70% heavier than Current Interceptor body armour. However, the added weight is actually from the more coverage that it provides. That if Interceptor actually provided additional coverage it would weigh almost as much as Dragon Skin.


The only flop about Dragon Skin is the childishness around it that polarized the discussion and basically Destroyed the Idea.

Frankly if I were to have to go into combat, I would buy Dragon Skin, strip out the plates, paint them in a hard coat of enamel that's sweat resistant, then sew up a new vest to hold them in the same pattern as it came in... something that doesn't fall apart in hot or cold temperatures...


As I said before, if it were that easy, it would have been fixed and you'd see Dragonskin vests all over the place. That's not the case. Indeed, the only organization that's purchased them thus far is the CIA. While that would seem to advocate its use, they did this before the results showing its problems came out. I can bet you those vests didn't see much use.

70% added weight is HUGE. No way in hell I'd wear something that heavy. And even if you just compare vest to vest, Dragonskin is still heavier. Modular deltoid and axillary protectors and such exist for the Interceptor, too, you know.

#62 Jason Redfield

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 06:10 PM

What I am trying to say is. ME wasn't really like a shooter game, it was mostly RPG and also the weapons didn't seem accurate. Sure Shepard was a war hero, but when I played ME, Shepard died too easily and also the assault rifle overheated quickly.

You realize that's all game mechanics, right? Game mechanics don't factor into these discussions.

And Mass Effect is plenty shooter, not just RPG. And the weapons were only inaccurate at first. Later on in the game they were amazing, and heat production/recoil was minimal, bordering on non-existent in some cases. And Shepard really doesn't die that easily assuming you're not on an outrageous difficulty and you're playing smart.

#63 Skirmisher

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 06:21 PM

As I said before, if it were that easy, it would have been fixed and you'd see Dragonskin vests all over the place. That's not the case. Indeed, the only organization that's purchased them thus far is the CIA. While that would seem to advocate its use, they did this before the results showing its problems came out. I can bet you those vests didn't see much use.

70% added weight is HUGE. No way in hell I'd wear something that heavy. And even if you just compare vest to vest, Dragonskin is still heavier. Modular deltoid and axillary protectors and such exist for the Interceptor, too, you know.

The problem is with just fixing it, is as I said the Childish Nature that has surrounded it all. Pinnacle are a bunch of childish morons who want it to be Their Armour the way They Designed it... and even if they were to fix it like that the Military is still of the Childish Nature of not wanting them in their club house because they were yelled at and called names.

This whole thing is so steeped in RP Campaigns and Counter PR Campaigns from BOTH sides, that the simple truth has been lost.


Yes, and how heavy would interceptor be if you actually were to include those deltoid and axillary plates?

#64 Jason Redfield

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 06:43 PM

The problem is with just fixing it, is as I said the Childish Nature that has surrounded it all. Pinnacle are a bunch of childish morons who want it to be Their Armour the way They Designed it... and even if they were to fix it like that the Military is still of the Childish Nature of not wanting them in their club house because they were yelled at and called names.

This whole thing is so steeped in RP Campaigns and Counter PR Campaigns from BOTH sides, that the simple truth has been lost.


Yes, and how heavy would interceptor be if you actually were to include those deltoid and axillary plates?


Welcome to the military-industrial complex, my friend.

Not too much heavier, considering that I haven't heard of any complaints regarding them, even from my (completely unbiased) acquaintance in Army spec ops. They're rather widely-issued now, in fact.

#65 ricrery

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 07:02 PM

I'll get back to this once I start and finish reading Revelation.

#66 Skirmisher

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 08:13 PM

I'll get back to this once I start and finish reading Revelation.

Remember, when you quote provide a couple sentences before and after, or at least mention the Context. Then give the page number of where you found the quote.

#67 ricrery

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 09:38 PM

Oh to hell with it, I might not get to reading it until it's halfway through November.

Every gun causes Recoil, but recoil can be handled in different ways. Mass Accelerators might very well produce more Recoil than conventional weapons. They would also need Different technologies to absorb that Recoil than conventional weapons. Not only that but various weapons may actually employ various Recoil Dampeners, and that the [High Recoil] weapons just don't have those high quality recoil dampeners. Basing it off of the statement that "Recoil is High" is therefore a shitty way of going about finding the amount of energy it actually has.


1) "Every gun causes Recoil, but recoil can be handled in different ways. Mass Accelerators might very well produce more Recoil than conventional weapons"

This requires evidence. The standard way of finding the velocity is to divide the force by the mass.

2) "They would also need Different technologies to absorb that Recoil than conventional weapons."

Ditto.

3) "Not only that but various weapons may actually employ various Recoil Dampeners"


Again, evidence is needed.

4) "and that the [High Recoil] weapons just don't have those high quality recoil dampeners. Basing it off of the statement that "Recoil is High" is therefore a shitty way of going about finding the amount of energy it actually has."

Ugh.

Best to stick to the Effect of the Weapon and not the amount of Recoil it generates. As such, Exploding a head can be done with as little as several thousand joules of pure Kinetic Energy.


In the same form that the comic showed?

Also, I like how you claimed that throwing back Husks was a GAME MECHANIC which is not canon, despite claiming before that Starcraft's nukes can only blow up a small base, putting them at low kilotons at best. Double standards, you know.

Well, the thing is... it's how the Recoil is handled.

A Sniper Rifle only has to worry about the Recoil of One shot, because it only needs One Shot for One Kill... An Assault Rifle however is designed to fire in Bursts and Full Auto, meaning that the Recoil of Each and Every one of those bullets adds to throw off your aim.

Also here

http://www.spike.com...-vs-gsg-9/37917

Go to 17:30 where they test the PSG1 and the Remington 700 rifles.


1) "Well, the thing is... it's how the Recoil is handled."

And you can't just claim that it doesn't work differently than a normal gun does without evidcence.

2) "A Sniper Rifle only has to worry about the Recoil of One shot, because it only needs One Shot for One Kill..."

Which it wouldn't generate if it has a pretty small amount of recoil in the first place, wouldn't you say?

3) "An Assault Rifle however is designed to fire in Bursts and Full Auto, meaning that the Recoil of Each and Every one of those bullets adds to throw off your aim."

Yeah, and one of them slowly goes up while firing in bursts despite Shephard's attempts to keep it down, and he CAN'T stop that.

4) "Go to 17:30 where they test the PSG1 and the Remington 700 rifles."

Blowing up heads in several shots... Alright... But do you think that is comparable to the comic showing a Turian's head blown apart into a wave of blood?

#68 Jason Redfield

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 09:43 PM

4) "Go to 17:30 where they test the PSG1 and the Remington 700 rifles."

Blowing up heads in several shots... Alright... But do you think that is comparable to the comic showing a Turian's head blown apart into a wave of blood?


Did you watch the vid I linked with the shotgun slugs? And the whole heads blowing up thing is really subjective. I could see a .308 having a similar effect, particularly at close range or with a hollow-point bullet.

#69 ricrery

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 09:46 PM

Did you watch the vid I linked with the shotgun slugs? And the whole heads blowing up thing is really subjective. I could see a .308 having a similar effect, particularly at close range or with a hollow-point bullet.


Yes I did, and only after several shots did it really start bleeding. In the comic, One shot turned a Turian's head into a wave of blood.

#70 Jason Redfield

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 10:32 PM

Yes I did, and only after several shots did it really start bleeding. In the comic, One shot turned a Turian's head into a wave of blood.


A lot of the rounds seemed to be grazing hits. When the GSG-9 guy manages to actually get a good hit through the top of the dome, the head explodes.

And the head exploding may be "artistic license" -- odd that the round doesn't pass through the head but manages clean punch-throughs on armored soldiers...

Besides, a turian's head/skull may very well be different. Maybe the round was a high-explosive one. Too many variables IMO.

EDIT: googling around for ballistics gel evidence pics, I (unfortunately) happened upon a picture of an insurgent that took a .308 to the head. The pic is absolutely gruesome, and I won't post it. If you want to see it, I'll send it to you in a PM. Essentially, everything above the mouth looks as if it's been vaporized.

#71 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 10:59 PM

CAN I SEE THIS PICTURE JASON? ;)




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