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Master Chief vs Commander Shepard vs Marcus Fenix


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#41 ricrery

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 01:07 AM

I still don't see how you got a 96.5 KJ energy yield for ME weapons. You haven't provided any substantial evidence that they do that amount of damage.


As I've already stated, I use the Newtons from an M4 and use it for the ME weapons, give it a mass, then I find the velocity.

You showed a Face being blown up? Yeah, have you seen what a H&K PSG1 does to a Human Face? Pretty much the same thing.


And just what proof do you have?

Interesting, the recoil of this rifle is pretty high, and several ME guns have high recoil too, so using this gun's recoil and giving the sniper pellet a mass of 100 milligrams, I get 374,978 Joules.

And it uses the same rounds that the MA5A-C uses... Except the MA5A-C has Higher Muzzle Velocities And Heavier Bullets... All that means Much more Damage, and as such, much more explody face.


Heavier bullets? False. They use FMJ bullets, which are LESS THAN 10 GRAMS. You aren't looking at even 4 kilojoules, yet you think THIS is enough to violently blow up one's head.

You showed Bullets flying through two soldiers, except they didn't really... Sure one guy got it through the Gut, but that's Weak armour due to the fact that the Gut has to be flexible to allow the soldier to actually move,


But you can quantify that armor? You can't, so how would you know that it hitting in the gut suggests it isn't a great feat when you don't know the actual durability of that part?

and the Lady that gets shot... not a Threw and Threw. Compare this to Any other Armour Penetrating round that Sails through most armour. A 7.62 AP NATO round cut's through even the thickest Kevlar vests like a hot knife through butter, only Ceramic plates seem to work, and even they don't stop the bullets half the time...


Oh wow, kevlar! Apparently that is comparable to ME armor- No it isn't.

#42 Skirmisher

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 01:40 AM

Err... I was showing those pictures to argue ricery's points. You're not saying anything new here. And SAPI plates laugh at even 7.62x51mm NATO M993 tungsten-carbide armor-piercing rounds. In fact, they can take multiple hits from them.

Um... No... no it doesn't...

The Small Arms Protective Insert is a Ceramic Plate that is used to defeat Modern Armour Piercing Bullets... except that It doesn't work that good. One Plate can only take on Average Three Strikes from Standard 7.62x51mm NATO Ball Cartridges, and that's only if it strikes Different parts of the Plate. What happens with Ceramic Plates is that once the Bullet hits the plate Both shatter, the Plate is next to useless in the area around where the bullet strikes with only the periphery chunks of plate being large enough to stop further hits. The Fragments of the Bullet then fly through the shattered plate to be caught by the Thick layers of Kevlar underneath.

SAPI does not Laugh off Tungsten Carbide AP Rounds.

This was brought up with the Dragon Skin tests, the Dragon Skin armour was Substantially More effective in prolonged combat then standard Interceptor Body Armour that used SAPI's, due to the fact that instead of One Large Plate that would be shattered and rendered useless it had Dozens if not Hundreds of Smaller Plates, covering More of the body as well as giving the user More Maneuverability then Interceptor and it's SAPI. The Only problem with Dragon Skin was what they used to Hold the Plates in place, with it not standing up to corrosive environments and high heat the plates tended to fall out of place. On that point though, I don't see why they couldn't just use a more resilient material to hold the plates in place... it was a revolutionary body armour, that was scrapped.

#43 Skirmisher

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 02:20 AM

As I've already stated, I use the Newtons from an M4 and use it for the ME weapons, give it a mass, then I find the velocity.

Um... Physics doesn't work that way... Is this the same as that time you said the Castle Bravo nuclear test in 1954 used a Multi-Gigaton Nuke?

Because you can't use Newtons like that.


And just what proof do you have?

Interesting, the recoil of this rifle is pretty high, and several ME guns have high recoil too, so using this gun's recoil and giving the sniper pellet a mass of 100 milligrams, I get 374,978 Joules.

Except it doesn't have that...

The Heckler & Koch PSG1 uses 7.62x51mm NATO Rounds which as you can see have a Typical Kinetic Energy of ~3500 joules, not 374,978 joules.

Not only that but Recoil is a Horrible Way of deriving energy.

Take for instance the Thompson Sub Machinegun. It had a Kick like a mule with it's .45 ACP round, the Tremendous Recoil mad it next to useless at even medium range on Automatic Fire, and had to be shot in short bursts. This is why SMG's have stuck to lower powered rounds like the 9mm.

Until the TDI Vector came along. It used Newer, Better Recoil absorption technology to allow it the ability to fire the .45 ACP round just as good as other SMG's firing their smaller rounds.


Heavier bullets? False. They use FMJ bullets, which are LESS THAN 10 GRAMS. You aren't looking at even 4 kilojoules, yet you think THIS is enough to violently blow up one's head.

Yet aside from the Name, it might be a Copper coat encasing a Tungsten Core. Which would mean that it IS heavier, as Tungsten is Heavier than Lead. You don't know what they could have done in 500 years of development.

They could be FMJ to protect the Barrel of the gun so that the Super Hardened bullet does not directly come into contact with the barrel and cause damage to it as it fire.

Based on weights and densities of a full lead bullet compared to one made of Tungsten with an outer sheath of copper the bullets at Minimum used by the MA5A-C should weigh 16.5g. This would generate 6779 Joules per Bullet, or throwing it through your Recoil analysis these Bullets would have a a power of 3,470,848 Rice Joultons per bullet.


But you can quantify that armor? You can't, so how would you know that it hitting in the gut suggests it isn't a great feat when you don't know the actual durability of that part?

And how can you know the Speed or Weight of a Bullet you know Nothing about, and have not even tried to quantify with estimates based on a probable field of data?

Using Recoil to figure it out... Really!


Oh wow, kevlar! Apparently that is comparable to ME armor- No it isn't.

Ok then, what are they made out of? Hard Suits say Ceramics, but that's only for Medium and Heavy armours. Those suits were fairly hard to tell what they were but they looked like Light Armour, meaning Soft and Not Ceramic, and as such much easier to penetrate then Ceramic Armours.

#44 ricrery

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 02:47 AM

Um... Physics doesn't work that way... Is this the same as that time you said the Castle Bravo nuclear test in 1954 used a Multi-Gigaton Nuke?

Because you can't use Newtons like that.


Far from that.

Newtons are a unit of force and the cause of recoil. Geez, how is this so hard to understand?

Except it doesn't have that...

The Heckler & Koch PSG1 uses 7.62x51mm NATO Rounds which as you can see have a Typical Kinetic Energy of ~3500 joules, not 374,978 joules.


And again I must tell you that kinetic energy doesn't cause the recoil.

Plus, you must prove it can do what you claimed.

Not only that but Recoil is a Horrible Way of deriving energy.


And HOW is it a horrible way of deriving energy? Finding a velocity that gives the bullet similar recoil to another weapon is a horrible way of deriving energy now?

Take for instance the Thompson Sub Machinegun. It had a Kick like a mule with it's .45 ACP round, the Tremendous Recoil mad it next to useless at even medium range on Automatic Fire, and had to be shot in short bursts. This is why SMG's have stuck to lower powered rounds like the 9mm.


Let's see. A 200 gram slug traveling at 280 m/s. The recoil here is 56 Newtons. No *vulgarity*ing shit it has tremendous recoil.

Until the TDI Vector came along. It used Newer, Better Recoil absorption technology to allow it the ability to fire the .45 ACP round just as good as other SMG's firing their smaller rounds.


Let me see the specs. Also, you want me to use momentum from now on instead of Newtons?

#45 ricrery

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 02:49 AM

Yet aside from the Name, it might be a Copper coat encasing a Tungsten Core. Which would mean that it IS heavier, as Tungsten is Heavier than Lead. You don't know what they could have done in 500 years of development.

They could be FMJ to protect the Barrel of the gun so that the Super Hardened bullet does not directly come into contact with the barrel and cause damage to it as it fire.

Based on weights and densities of a full lead bullet compared to one made of Tungsten with an outer sheath of copper the bullets at Minimum used by the MA5A-C should weigh 16.5g. This would generate 6779 Joules per Bullet, or throwing it through your Recoil analysis these Bullets would have a a power of 3,470,848 Rice Joultons per bullet.


Are you claiming that a gun with no a tenth of a Newton of recoil can throw back people or prevent sniping from occurring?

And how can you know the Speed or Weight of a Bullet you know Nothing about, and have not even tried to quantify with estimates based on a probable field of data?


YOU made the claim that they were the size of grains of sand, so I used an analysis that gave them a mass that made sense from that. Are you changing your mind so easily now when it doesn't benefit you?

Using Recoil to figure it out... Really!


Look, a 1 grain pellet traveling at 600 m/s is causing that gun to fly upwards despite being held downwards, OH MY GOD.

Ok then, what are they made out of? Hard Suits say Ceramics, but that's only for Medium and Heavy armours. Those suits were fairly hard to tell what they were but they looked like Light Armour, meaning Soft and Not Ceramic, and as such much easier to penetrate then Ceramic Armours.


Source, right now.

#46 Skirmisher

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 06:06 AM

Far from that.

Newtons are a unit of force and the cause of recoil. Geez, how is this so hard to understand?


You failed Math Class didn't you...


Plus, you must prove it can do what you claimed.

Um... I did, it was in my post. I provided the links stating Exactly Everything. I proved what I claimed.


And HOW is it a horrible way of deriving energy?

Because Energy is what you are trying to derive, Kinetic Energy as it's not Potential Energy. This means a Rather simple formula to find out How Much Kinetic Energy an object has.

Posted Image


Let me see the specs. Also, you want me to use momentum from now on instead of Newtons?

Kriss TDI Super V

Thompson SMG


Are you claiming that a gun with no a tenth of a Newton of recoil can throw back people or prevent sniping from occurring?

No I'm saying that when using your method there are Too many variables to deal with.

You have to contend with the weight of the gun, the weight of the person firing, the stance that they take, the strength of the person firing, the ground that they're on, the skill of the user, the acceleration of the bullet AND THEN the mass of the bullet and it's muzzle velocity.

All of these have an effect on the weapons Perceived Recoil.


It's the Difference between



and

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related


You would see the first one and say, OMG that's got soooo~ much Recoil! It has to have OMGINSANE Joules!

And then you'd see the Second one and say, Pesh, that's not as powerful as the first one. The First one had so much recoil that the gun flew back and hit her, and this guys duel wielding them firing multiple shots...


Except they're the same gun. The same bullets. The same energy.

#47 Skirmisher

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 06:07 AM

YOU made the claim that they were the size of grains of sand, so I used an analysis that gave them a mass that made sense from that. Are you changing your mind so easily now when it doesn't benefit you?

Yeah, a Mass of 0.00001kg to 0.0001kg seems accurate.

Except you don't know the speed... all you know is that it's Hyper velocity. That's it. That's all there is. There is nothing more than that.

We can guess based on appropriate levels of damage that they inflict. As such that headshot you showed Screams 3000 to 4000 joules since the PSG1 can achieve the Same Result, and it has That much energy behind it's bullets.


Source, right now.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

"Medium to heavy armor—and almost all turian and krogan armor—is classified as 'hardsuit' because it uses thick ceramic plating to protect non-flexible parts of the body."

As for their Similarity to Light armour then

http://img814.images...4/1889/gun2.jpg

http://images3.wikia...-human-Onyx.png



My only problem with this is the fact that I have no context with what's going on, or who these people are, what's firing at them, or even if their Armour was actually mentioned in the story this panel was taken from.

It's next to useless.

#48 Jason Redfield

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 09:02 AM

Um... No... no it doesn't...

The Small Arms Protective Insert is a Ceramic Plate that is used to defeat Modern Armour Piercing Bullets... except that It doesn't work that good. One Plate can only take on Average Three Strikes from Standard 7.62x51mm NATO Ball Cartridges, and that's only if it strikes Different parts of the Plate. What happens with Ceramic Plates is that once the Bullet hits the plate Both shatter, the Plate is next to useless in the area around where the bullet strikes with only the periphery chunks of plate being large enough to stop further hits. The Fragments of the Bullet then fly through the shattered plate to be caught by the Thick layers of Kevlar underneath.

SAPI does not Laugh off Tungsten Carbide AP Rounds.

This was brought up with the Dragon Skin tests, the Dragon Skin armour was Substantially More effective in prolonged combat then standard Interceptor Body Armour that used SAPI's, due to the fact that instead of One Large Plate that would be shattered and rendered useless it had Dozens if not Hundreds of Smaller Plates, covering More of the body as well as giving the user More Maneuverability then Interceptor and it's SAPI. The Only problem with Dragon Skin was what they used to Hold the Plates in place, with it not standing up to corrosive environments and high heat the plates tended to fall out of place. On that point though, I don't see why they couldn't just use a more resilient material to hold the plates in place... it was a revolutionary body armour, that was scrapped.


*sigh* Alright, my mistake. I was using SAPI plates as a generic term. Lots of correcting to do here.

Alright, example one: http://www.specialfo...late-p-563.html

Here's the one I should point out... "NATO 7.62 x 51 M61 AP ammunition - 6 shots stopped"

Hmm... that's a 7.62 NATO round with an armor-piercing core... and the same plate stopped six of them. Hell, it's not even US-military issue. Add on to that the fact that it only offers Level III protection, not even the next step up to Level IV...

Exhibit two: the ESAPI plate. Look it up.


Alright, Dragonskin. You should do your research. The thing was a complete and utter flop. It was heavier than the standard vest (more maneuverable my ass), its adhesive failed with hot temperatures or by exposure to sweat, etc. And your claim that it holds up better under multiple hits is also utter BS, seeing as how if one scale fails the entire system pretty much begins to fail. Pinnacle made an armor system that was novel in some ways, but crappy in overall execution. When the Army called them out on it, they cried "CONSPIRACY!" to make themselves look like the victim and to paint the Army as the big bad villains.

#49 Jason Redfield

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 09:08 AM

Yet aside from the Name, it might be a Copper coat encasing a Tungsten Core. Which would mean that it IS heavier, as Tungsten is Heavier than Lead. You don't know what they could have done in 500 years of development.

They could be FMJ to protect the Barrel of the gun so that the Super Hardened bullet does not directly come into contact with the barrel and cause damage to it as it fire.

Based on weights and densities of a full lead bullet compared to one made of Tungsten with an outer sheath of copper the bullets at Minimum used by the MA5A-C should weigh 16.5g. This would generate 6779 Joules per Bullet, or throwing it through your Recoil analysis these Bullets would have a a power of 3,470,848 Rice Joultons per bullet.


*sigh*

Armor-piercing rounds are generally lighter in weight than FMJ rounds. Only a small part of the total projectile is the tungsten core. They use tungsten carbide for its sectional density, not its mass. Besides, you WANT that velocity for an AP round. I don't see any reason for the UNSC to drastically change this process, and you're just giving out more conjecture.

#50 Stranglehold-prime

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 01:43 PM

Marcus goes down in the beginning. He's not quite in the same league as the other two.

At that point it's Shepard vs. Chief... and I really don't feel like going through that again: http://www.electricf.......0&hl=suites


How is he not in the same league? The Cog has advanced tech. I played ME and I don't see Shepard weapons as a all out combat fight.

Marcus is a good tactician and also he survived lots of things. Shepard weapons are not combat type.(In my opinion)

The only thing Shepard has on Marcus is futuristic armor.

What class is Shepard in this match?

Is he Solider,Vanguard,etc?

I see it like this.

Master Chief

Marcus

Shepard.

#51 Jason Redfield

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 03:32 PM

What are you on about, Stranglehold? None of that made sense.

How is he not in the same league? The Cog has advanced tech.

Barely more advanced than modern tech. No FTL space travel, more or less conventional weapons, conventional vehicles... I can't readily think of a single piece of tech they have that we don't today.

Marcus is a good tactician and also he survived lots of things.


What? And Shepard isn't? In the War Hero background, he single-handedly defeated an enemy raid in the Blitz. The first two Mass Effect games are filled with instances of him/her being shown to be a natural leader and excellent tactician, accomplishing a huge amount of "impossible missions". And he's survived odds just as bad if not worse than Marcus has faced.

Shepard weapons are not combat type.(In my opinion)

Err... what? I don't understand that. Any weapon is designed for combat. That's kind of the definition of the word. Please explain to me what you mean.

Shepard's weapons are considerably more advanced, seeing as how ammo is practically a non-issue, they have extremely high muzzle velocities, varying specialized ammunition types... I could go on.

The only thing Shepard has on Marcus is futuristic armor.

Got that right, except for the "only thing" part. You must be forgetting Shepard's kinetic barrier, which would shrug off Lancer rounds rather easily. Then those rounds would have to penetrate the armor, then his reinforced skin, then if they run into the bones... good luck.

Shepard's also got a "healing factor" of sorts, advanced sensors, a quicker reaction time, greater physical strength, etc.

Marcus is good, but he just isn't in the same league.

#52 Skirmisher

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 03:43 PM

*sigh* Alright, my mistake. I was using SAPI plates as a generic term. Lots of correcting to do here.

Alright, example one: http://www.specialfo...late-p-563.html

Here's the one I should point out... "NATO 7.62 x 51 M61 AP ammunition - 6 shots stopped"

Hmm... that's a 7.62 NATO round with an armor-piercing core... and our plate stopped 6 of them. Hell, it's not even US-military issue. Add on to that the fact that it only offers Level III protection, not even Level IV...

Exhibit two: the ESAPI plate. Look it up.


Alright, Dragonskin. You should do your research. The thing was a complete and utter flop. It was heavier than the standard vest (more maneuverable my ass), its adhesive failed with hot temperatures or by exposure to sweat, etc. And your claim that it holds up better under multiple hits is also utter BS, seeing as how if one scale fails the entire system pretty much begins to fail.

Except that they are also rated by conventional Speeds, and Conventional terms of AP... The MA5A-C seems to achieve a much higher Velocity than current weapons with the 7.62 round, and do to having the ability to specially strengthened materials at the molecular level, their tungsten cores could actually be heavier or much harder to shatter with Ceramic inserts. Not only that, but the MA5C has a 32 round clip and most of the time it's Expected to need that whole clip to down a Spartan or Elite (Though mostly because of energy shields)

As for Dragon Skin. It wasn't an utter flop, it was just deemed by the military to be too expensive to field and as such disregarded before being targeted with misinformation. It was only a few lbs heavier than Standard Vests, except do to it's Scaled design allowed the wearer to Actually be able to Move around and Breath better. As the SAPI was one solid plate that allowed next to No movement.

Of course the Adhesive failed, that's what I said, but being a Much Better design than SAPI they should have used more resilient materials to hold the disks in place.

As for the fact that it fails after being shot, that would only be if the adhesive failed. If they used a better material to hold the disks in place then it could easily stand up to whatever was thrown at it.

Except I found this to be interesting...

Dragon Skin SOV-2000 level III armor was also tested the week of October 2, 2006 by Dr. Gary Roberts, LCDR, USNR, Stanford University Medical Center. These tests were conducted for a local law enforcement agency, as a control sample a stand-alone Armored Mobility Incorporated (AMI) level III steel composite plate armor was used for comparison. Both types of armor were conditioned for 12 hours at 170 °F (77 °C), then moved to ambient air for approximately 90 minutes prior to being shot. The problems associated with the use of inelastic clay backing material have been well documented; as such, the armor was secured to a life-size curvilinear torso replica made of Perma-Gel. Each armor system was shot a minimum of 20 times with five rounds of each ammunition type fired against each armor system—one 90 degree perpendicular shot, two shots at 60 degrees obliquity, and two shots at 30 degrees obliquity, using each of the following loads fired at a distance of 10 feet (3.0 m):

* 5.56 mm 40 gr LeMas Urban Warfare (using a moly coated Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet) with a 3,718 feet (1,133 m) per second average velocity.
* 5.56 mm M855 62 gr FMJ with a 3,054 feet (931 m) per second average velocity.
* 7.62x39 mm M43 123 gr steel-core FMJ with a 2,307 feet (703 m) per second average velocity.
* .30-06 M2 150 gr FMJ with a 2,736 feet (834 m) per second average velocity.

All of the above ammo was successfully stopped by both armor systems in this testing, with no armor failures or penetrations, even after receiving multiple hits.

Which begs me to ask... what were the Extra Conditions left off the reports for the tests that the Military placed the Dragon Skin in prior to testing.

See to the Military even if Dragon Skin worked they couldn't afford it for All of their troops. Because that would mean that not only did they waste their money on SAPI for the 200,000 troops in the middle east, they now have to by 200,000+ new body armours for them. Body Armour that is about two to three times more expensive than SPAI. I know you'd say that "They're the US Military, they have the money" but the thing is, that's a x4 increase in the budget for Infantry Armour, to them it wouldn't be worth it because that money could go to Ammo, or missiles or tanks, or fuel, or jets, or UAV's. So just by being more expensive the Dragon Skin was doomed to failure...

Not only that but the Military has a contract with the guys who make Interceptor, burning them now for this better armour would mean getting burned if they were to come out in the future with a better armour system.

#53 ricrery

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 03:50 PM

You failed Math Class didn't you...


There is no serious math involved here at all.

Um... I did, it was in my post. I provided the links stating Exactly Everything. I proved what I claimed.


It tells me nothing about the velocity.

Because Energy is what you are trying to derive, Kinetic Energy as it's not Potential Energy. This means a Rather simple formula to find out How Much Kinetic Energy an object has.

Posted Image


Kinetic energy is used when you KNOW the velocity, but we don't here.

Kriss TDI Super V

Thompson SMG


Neither of these show head blowing levels of firepower, nor does the latter video even show any actual damage done.

No I'm saying that when using your method there are Too many variables to deal with.

You have to contend with the weight of the gun, the weight of the person firing, the stance that they take, the strength of the person firing, the ground that they're on, the skill of the user, the acceleration of the bullet AND THEN the mass of the bullet and it's muzzle velocity.


1)The weight of the gun is the same as the M4 I'm using as an example.

2) Shephard should obviously be heavy enough to prevent it from being a problem.

3) This stance is what we see in the game.

4) It varies.

5) Shephard is obviously very efficient with the weapons he uses.

6) The force is what causes the recoil of a gun. The force that goes out of the bullet has to also have affected the gun itself. Acceleration = force/mass. The acceleration of a gun with 3.536 Newtons and a mass of 10 milligrams is 353,600 m/s, as stated before.

#54 ricrery

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 03:51 PM



and

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related


You would see the first one and say, OMG that's got soooo~ much Recoil! It has to have OMGINSANE Joules!


The first one isn't the best to use for discovering the recoil of the gun, obviously. I mean, from the research I did, a single bullet from that gun is 19.44 grams traveling at 420.6 m/s. The recoil from that is over 8 Newtons, which is a lot and obviously the reason of why that occurred in the first video.

And then you'd see the Second one and say, Pesh, that's not as powerful as the first one. The First one had so much recoil that the gun flew back and hit her, and this guys duel wielding them firing multiple shots...


Except they're the same gun. The same bullets. The same energy.


That gun has more than twice the force of an M4. Is this supposed to prove that Shephard is weak or something? Of course he's going to be closer to the latter video than the former.

#55 Jason Redfield

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 03:58 PM

Except that they are also rated by conventional Speeds, and Conventional terms of AP... The MA5A-C seems to achieve a much higher Velocity than current weapons with the 7.62 round, and do to having the ability to specially strengthened materials at the molecular level, their tungsten cores could actually be heavier or much harder to shatter with Ceramic inserts. Not only that, but the MA5C has a 32 round clip and most of the time it's Expected to need that whole clip to down a Spartan or Elite (Though mostly because of energy shields)

All that says to me is more efficient propellant, not necessarily a heavier or drastically denser projectile.

*snip*


If it was as easy as "let's use better adhesive!", it would've been done. It had more problems than that. And only a "few pounds heavier?" Try more like 20 pounds. Ask any soldier if they want even a few extra pounds in their loadout and tell me what they say. And some added flexibility doesn't matter when it weighs that much. Wearing an Interceptor isn't like walking around in a tin can -- it's not a luxury robe, but let's not go overboard here.

As for that test you linked -- I'm well aware of that. OK, maybe Dragonskin isn't a total flop. It works well in one niche -- lab tests in climate-controlled areas when not being worn by a sweating individual. It offers pretty good protection in those circumstances (except when it catastrophically fails, which sometimes happens). Other than that, it is, as I said, a flop.


http://forums.spaceb...ad.php?t=172395
http://www.professio...ead.php?t=14523
http://op-for.com/20...ragon_sk_1.html

All of those are good sources.

As for the whole conspiracy with the Army, I used to buy into that, too. While it's maybe true that the Army would rather downplay a new vest for logistical and political reasons, that just isn't the case here. There's completly independent, third-party evidence which points at how bad the stuff is, not just Army research.

#56 ricrery

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 03:59 PM

Yeah, a Mass of 0.00001kg to 0.0001kg seems accurate.

Except you don't know the speed... all you know is that it's Hyper velocity. That's it. That's all there is. There is nothing more than that.


Except we know they cause recoil.

We can guess based on appropriate levels of damage that they inflict. As such that headshot you showed Screams 3000 to 4000 joules since the PSG1 can achieve the Same Result, and it has That much energy behind it's bullets.


But a 100 milligram slug would have to be traveling at 8,000 m/s to generate 3.2 kilojoules, which gives it a force insufficient to throw back zombie Collectors or prevent the guns from being used like snipers due to recoil. Plus, I'm still awaiting actual proof that a 3-4 kJ bullet can violently blow up a head.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

"Medium to heavy armor—and almost all turian and krogan armor—is classified as 'hardsuit' because it uses thick ceramic plating to protect non-flexible parts of the body."


it uses thick ceramic plating to protect non-flexible parts of the body

See something wrong with that? They never state to use ceramic plating on the entire suit excluding the areas you claimed to be "weak" and "less defended".

#57 Jason Redfield

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 04:19 PM

But a 100 milligram slug would have to be traveling at 8,000 m/s to generate 3.2 kilojoules, which gives it a force insufficient to throw back zombie Collectors or prevent the guns from being used like snipers due to recoil. Plus, I'm still awaiting actual proof that a 3-4 kJ bullet can violently blow up a head.


http://www.spike.com...ll-shot/3378326

The second half of that vid has ballistics gel heads being utterly destroyed by what I think are shotgun slugs. I did a rough kinetic energy calc for those slugs, and came up with ~4.267 kilojoules, which is somewhat close to your range. In all likelihood, that's actually too much KE, as I was generous with the numbers. For the show, and judging by the recoil, those are probably lower-powered slugs.

Either way, I certainly think it's possible for a bullet with that much energy to violently explode a head. I've seen .308 rounds do similarly against ballistics gel heads, and they fit very nicely into your range.

#58 Stranglehold-prime

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 05:06 PM

What are you on about, Stranglehold? None of that made sense.


Barely more advanced than modern tech. No FTL space travel, more or less conventional weapons, conventional vehicles... I can't readily think of a single piece of tech they have that we don't today.



What? And Shepard isn't? In the War Hero background, he single-handedly defeated an enemy raid in the Blitz. The first two Mass Effect games are filled with instances of him/her being shown to be a natural leader and excellent tactician, accomplishing a huge amount of "impossible missions". And he's survived odds just as bad if not worse than Marcus has faced.


Err... what? I don't understand that. Any weapon is designed for combat. That's kind of the definition of the word. Please explain to me what you mean.

Shepard's weapons are considerably more advanced, seeing as how ammo is practically a non-issue, they have extremely high muzzle velocities, varying specialized ammunition types... I could go on.


Got that right, except for the "only thing" part. You must be forgetting Shepard's kinetic barrier, which would shrug off Lancer rounds rather easily. Then those rounds would have to penetrate the armor, then his reinforced skin, then if they run into the bones... good luck.

Shepard's also got a "healing factor" of sorts, advanced sensors, a quicker reaction time, greater physical strength, etc.

Marcus is good, but he just isn't in the same league.


What I am trying to say is. ME wasn't really like a shooter game, it was mostly RPG and also the weapons didn't seem accurate. Sure Shepard was a war hero, but when I played ME, Shepard died too easily and also the assault rifle overheated quickly.

#59 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 05:14 PM

What I am trying to say is. ME wasn't really like a shooter game, it was mostly RPG and also the weapons didn't seem accurate. Sure Shepard was a war hero, but when I played ME, Shepard died too easily and also the assault rifle overheated quickly.

Shepard only dies too easily if the player's not so good with him. Its called cover.

And I recall upgrades for these weapons. I remember adding on two of the best version of the upgrade that greatly reduced the heat that it produced, making it barely non-existent, for the assault rifle.

#60 Skirmisher

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 05:57 PM

*Ship*

Yeah, basically what it boils down to is that the Both Sides put alot of effort and money into painting it black and white.

Pinnacle stated that it was superior, even through their suspension rig for the disks was horrible and the plates Denatured under sweat and diesel fuel. But that could EASILY be fixed with a proper rig and a coat of enamel.

But the Military was stung by the PR campaign that Pinnacle sprung on them and decided to utterly annihilate them, regardless of what benefits their armour system could provide.

As for Weight, the Dragon Skin is only 70% heavier than Current Interceptor body armour. However, the added weight is actually from the more coverage that it provides. That if Interceptor actually provided additional coverage it would weigh almost as much as Dragon Skin.


The only flop about Dragon Skin is the childishness around it that polarized the discussion and basically Destroyed the Idea.

Frankly if I were to have to go into combat, I would buy Dragon Skin, strip out the plates, paint them in a hard coat of enamel that's sweat resistant, then sew up a new vest to hold them in the same pattern as it came in... something that doesn't fall apart in hot or cold temperatures...


Except we know they cause recoil.

Every gun causes Recoil, but recoil can be handled in different ways. Mass Accelerators might very well produce more Recoil than conventional weapons. They would also need Different technologies to absorb that Recoil than conventional weapons. Not only that but various weapons may actually employ various Recoil Dampeners, and that the [High Recoil] weapons just don't have those high quality recoil dampeners. Basing it off of the statement that "Recoil is High" is therefore a shitty way of going about finding the amount of energy it actually has.

Best to stick to the Effect of the Weapon and not the amount of Recoil it generates. As such, Exploding a head can be done with as little as several thousand joules of pure Kinetic Energy.


But a 100 milligram slug would have to be traveling at 8,000 m/s to generate 3.2 kilojoules... *snip (Game Mechanics are non-canon)* ...Plus, I'm still awaiting actual proof that a 3-4 kJ bullet can violently blow up a head.

Well, the thing is... it's how the Recoil is handled.

A Sniper Rifle only has to worry about the Recoil of One shot, because it only needs One Shot for One Kill... An Assault Rifle however is designed to fire in Bursts and Full Auto, meaning that the Recoil of Each and Every one of those bullets adds to throw off your aim.

Also here

http://www.spike.com...-vs-gsg-9/37917

Go to 17:30 where they test the PSG1 and the Remington 700 rifles.


it uses thick ceramic plating to protect non-flexible parts of the body

See something wrong with that? They never state to use ceramic plating on the entire suit excluding the areas you claimed to be "weak" and "less defended".

Yes... and the Abdomen is a Flexible Part of the Body... Thus it wouldn't have those Thick Ceramic Plates covering it. The Abdomen was where that man was hit with the Threw and Threw shot. This would mean that he was hit in a Weak and Less Defended part of the Armour.




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