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Master Chief vs Commander Shepard vs Marcus Fenix


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#21 ricrery

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 04:32 PM

That might be a going a little overboard. Shepard wouldn't be able to wade through concentrated fire with impunity. I just think he has an advantage, albeit a slight one.


Shephard has pistols and assault rifles stronger than Master Chief's own sniper rifles that can kill him in a single well placed shot, do you really think a weapon stronger by an order of magnitude wouldn't be able to do the same? This advantage in firepower makes this debate lopsided.

#22 Skirmisher

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 08:01 PM

Shephard has pistols and assault rifles stronger than Master Chief's own sniper rifles that can kill him in a single well placed shot, do you really think a weapon stronger by an order of magnitude wouldn't be able to do the same? This advantage in firepower makes this debate lopsided.

Can you actually prove this? Or is this just Your Opinion on the matter? Because it Really seems like Your Opinion on the matter because you are Stating it without evidence.

Because frankly, when you say something like that, Your Opinion counts for Jack Shit... oh wait, Jack left town.

#23 Jason Redfield

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 08:05 PM

Shephard has pistols and assault rifles stronger than Master Chief's own sniper rifles that can kill him in a single well placed shot, do you really think a weapon stronger by an order of magnitude wouldn't be able to do the same? This advantage in firepower makes this debate lopsided.


But they're not necessarily stronger by an order of magnitude. That's not really suggested by any of the source material. Overall more efficient than modern or Halo weapons? Sure. But an order of magnitude more firepower? No. Otherwise you'd see men getting torn in half and blown to pieces by the mass accelerator shots on a regular basis.

But that's beside the point. We both agree that Shepard has an advantage here. No need to split hairs.

#24 ricrery

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 08:39 PM

Can you actually prove this? Or is this just Your Opinion on the matter?


Yes, and I actually did in this thread. It's up to you to counter my arguments.

#25 ricrery

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 08:51 PM

But they're not necessarily stronger by an order of magnitude.


The math says yes.

A MA5 fires a 7.62x51 mm NATO round at 905 m/s. The KE here is 4 kilojoules. The sniper fires a 60 gram slug at 1,400 m/s. The KE here is 60 kilojoules.

A 10 milligram grain has to be fired at 353,600 m/s to match the recoil of an M4, with a KE of 612.5 kilojoules. A grain has to travel at 54,569 m/s to match the recoil, with a KE of 96.5 kilojoules. A gram needs to travel at 3,530 m/s, with a KE of 12.5 kilojoules. So you see, each possible mass gives us numbers far above the standard MA5. Oh, and the last one is not "possible" and the one before it is very unlikely.

So you see, the ME side does have weapons stronger by orders of magnitudes by their equivalents and more.

That's not really suggested by any of the source material. Overall more efficient than modern or Halo weapons? Sure. But an order of magnitude more firepower? No. Otherwise you'd see men getting torn in half and blown to pieces by the mass accelerator shots on a regular basis.


The novels have heads blown up by shots, and I believe, people mangled.

#26 Skirmisher

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 08:52 PM

Yes, and I actually did in this thread. It's up to you to counter my arguments.

No, you inserted your own numbers based on your opinion of what they should be... Watch I can do the Same thing for Halo.

See what Molecular Strengthening does to a metal actually Quadruples it's weight.

That means that they fire 44g bullets at 905m/s, with a Kinetic Energy of 18,018.55 joules per bullet. As well that would mean that the Sniper Rifle has a Kinetic Energy of 261,544.5 joules.

Not only that but Mass effect weapons seem to have Extremely low range. With the Pistol only being accurate out to a a couple dozen meters, the Assault rifle only out to point blank and the sniper rifle with the Longest range only shooting as far as a 100m...


Guess what? This is all bullshit, just like what you were doing.


Also, use Joules, not Newtons. Newtons by itself is useless in this analysis, Joules is far more efficient. Also...


The joule (pronounced /ˈdʒuːl/ or /ˈdʒaʊl/); symbol J), named after James Prescott Joule, is the derived unit of energy in the International System of Units. It is the energy expended in applying a force of one newton through a distance of one metre (1 newton·metre or N·m).


So your Math is wrong.

#27 Skirmisher

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 08:55 PM

A 10 milligram grain has to be fired at 353,600 m/s to match the recoil of an M4, with a KE of 612.5 kilojoules.

Wait... you're basically saying that an M4 which fires 5.56x45mm NATO round with ~1700 joules of energy ACTUALLY fires them off at 612.5 kilojoules of energy?

You Math is Wrong. Please shut up, because I can't keep on correcting your Blatant Mistakes every f***ing second.

#28 ricrery

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 09:05 PM

No, you inserted your own numbers based on your opinion of what they should be... Watch I can do the Same thing for Halo.

See what Molecular Strengthening does to a metal actually Quadruples it's weight.

That means that they fire 44g bullets at 905m/s, with a Kinetic Energy of 18,018.55 joules per bullet. As well that would mean that the Sniper Rifle has a Kinetic Energy of 261,544.5 joules.


Hooray, it's still less than a common ME weapon!

Not only that but Mass effect weapons seem to have Extremely low range. With the Pistol only being accurate out to a a couple dozen meters, the Assault rifle only out to point blank and the sniper rifle with the Longest range only shooting as far as a 100m...


YES, and the fluff say that is because of RECOIL.

Guess what? This is all bullshit, just like what you were doing.


Uh huh.

Also, use Joules, not Newtons. Newtons by itself is useless in this analysis, Joules is far more efficient. Also...


AHA, no. 1,600 Joules isn't 1,600 Newtons. 1,600 Newtons is sufficient to throw an 80 kilogram person back at 20 meters per second, or a Spartan with a mass of 500 kilos back at 3 meters per second. You then must realize that Newtons are what gives guns their recoil and force, but surprisingly they don't cause their holder to fly back with more kinetic energy than a bullet from the gun itself.

The joule (pronounced /ˈdʒuːl/ or /ˈdʒaʊl/); symbol J), named after James Prescott Joule, is the derived unit of energy in the International System of Units. It is the energy expended in applying a force of one newton through a distance of one metre (1 newton·metre or N·m).


Energy is not force.

#29 ricrery

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 09:07 PM

Wait... you're basically saying that an M4 which fires 5.56x45mm NATO round with ~1700 joules of energy ACTUALLY fires them off at 612.5 kilojoules of energy?


Nope, but it hits you with as much momentum.

You Math is Wrong. Please shut up, because I can't keep on correcting your Blatant Mistakes every f***ing second.


YOUR science is wrong. Please shut up, because I can't keep on correcting your blatant mistakes every *vulgarity*ing second.

#30 Jason Redfield

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 09:11 PM

The math says yes.

A MA5 fires a 7.62x51 mm NATO round at 905 m/s. The KE here is 4 kilojoules. The sniper fires a 60 gram slug at 1,400 m/s. The KE here is 60 kilojoules.

A 10 milligram grain has to be fired at 353,600 m/s to match the recoil of an M4, with a KE of 612.5 kilojoules. A grain has to travel at 54,569 m/s to match the recoil, with a KE of 96.5 kilojoules. A gram needs to travel at 3,530 m/s, with a KE of 12.5 kilojoules. So you see, each possible mass gives us numbers far above the standard MA5. Oh, and the last one is not "possible" and the one before it is very unlikely.

So you see, the ME side does have weapons stronger by orders of magnitudes by their equivalents and more.

The novels have heads blown up by shots, and I believe, people mangled.


Who says the recoil is equivalent to that of an M4? Are you going by visuals? If so, that is EXTREMELY subjective. And people can be mangled or have their heads exploded by modern rounds, as well. The fact is that in-game cut-scenes, which are on the same level if not higher canon than the novels don't have such damage levels.

Here are some pictures (warning, they're rather large):

http://img828.images.../7269/gun1f.jpg

http://img814.images...4/1889/gun2.jpg


That's straight from one of the graphic novels. Impressive penetration, but nothing there or in the other fluff suggests orders of magnitude greater power.

#31 ricrery

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 09:18 PM

Who says the recoil is equivalent to that of an M4? Are you going by visuals? If so, that is EXTREMELY subjective.


No, it's an unofficial number given to their weapons due to them having enough recoil to prevent assault rifles from being used like sniper rifles. We could go with one Newton of force, and still get 50 kilojoules.

The fact is that in-game cut-scenes, which are on the same level if not higher canon than the novels don't have such damage levels.


Bullshit. Bioware themselves stated that cutscenes are actually one of the lowest canon depictions of Mass Effect. Oh hell, they stated that the codex automatically overrides anything the cutscenes show.

Here are some pictures (warning, they're rather large):

http://img828.images.../7269/gun1f.jpg

http://img814.images...4/1889/gun2.jpg


That's straight from one of the graphic novels. Impressive penetration, but nothing there or in the other fluff suggests orders of magnitude greater power.


Right, and these are ARMORED INDIVIDUALS.

#32 Jason Redfield

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 09:38 PM

No, it's an unofficial number given to their weapons due to them having enough recoil to prevent assault rifles from being used like sniper rifles. We could go with one Newton of force, and still get 50 kilojoules.

Which surpasses modern 14.5mm rounds and approaches the power of a 20mm Vulcan round. And you're saying EACH round out of an assault rifle does that much damage? If that was the case, just about anything would be utterly reduced to pulped flesh upon receiving even a short burst from an assault rifle, yet this is not the case.


Bullshit. Bioware themselves stated that cutscenes are actually one of the lowest canon depictions of Mass Effect. Oh hell, they stated that the codex automatically overrides anything the cutscenes show.

Source? I knew they had said that at one point, but IIRC it was directed at the space battle at the Citadel with Sovereign simply because that entire sequence was filled with fail. I've NEVER about them saying the rest were to be discounted though.



Right, and these are ARMORED INDIVIDUALS.

I'm well aware of that. I'm referring to the tissue damage. Modern bullets can fly through armor too and still cause blood spatter like what we see there, maybe a bit less. I'm still not seeing any solid PROOF that they are orders of magnitude greater in power. Only extrapolation and conjecture.

#33 ricrery

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 09:44 PM

Which surpasses modern 14.5mm rounds and approaches the power of a 20mm Vulcan round. And you're saying EACH round out of an assault rifle does that much damage? If that was the case, just about anything would be utterly reduced to pulped flesh upon receiving even a short burst from an assault rifle, yet this is not the case.


Possibly if they cause recoil similar to a modern day equivalent gun. It's possible that they don't cause this much recoil from one bullet but instead a burst, but I don't know.

Source? I knew they had said that at one point, but IIRC it was directed at the space battle at the Citadel with Sovereign simply because that entire sequence was filled with fail. I've NEVER about them saying the rest were to be discounted though.


That's exactly where I'm coming from. However, you will need proof that their canon policy goes cutscene > codex/novel as you made the claim.

I'm well aware of that. I'm referring to the tissue damage. Modern bullets can fly through armor too and still cause blood spatter like what we see there, maybe a bit less. I'm still not seeing any solid PROOF that they are orders of magnitude greater in power. Only extrapolation and conjecture.


Yeah, and they had to puncture the armor, and... they shatter upon hitting said armor... Plus, what makes you think that they can fit thousands of bullets that mass grams or even grains?

#34 Jason Redfield

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:10 PM

Possibly if they cause recoil similar to a modern day equivalent gun. It's possible that they don't cause this much recoil from one bullet but instead a burst, but I don't know.

It just doesn't make sense, tbh. Using your original calc of 96.5 kilojoules, a three round burst surpasses the energy of a 30mm armor-piercing round from the Avenger cannon on an A-10. A round, I might add, which is known for shredding main battle tanks.

That's exactly where I'm coming from. However, you will need proof that their canon policy goes cutscene > codex/novel as you made the claim.

I thought the general idea was that the original source material was considered highest canon unless the creators directly say otherwise. It's a never-ending argument, because I could just ask for proof that the novels are higher canon.

Yeah, and they had to puncture the armor, and... they shatter upon hitting said armor... Plus, what makes you think that they can fit thousands of bullets that mass grams or even grains?

Those rounds don't seem to shatter, and the reason that they're leaving visible beams is beyond me. And I'm not sure what you're getting at with the last part.


I personally recommend that we end this now. This is a massive thread derail. We both agree on the same fundamental principle of Shepard having a distinct advantage here. Nitpicking over how powerful his weapons are is just silly, and I apologize for starting this.

#35 ricrery

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:17 PM

It just doesn't make sense, tbh. Using your original calc of 96.5 kilojoules, a three round burst surpasses the energy of a 30mm armor-piercing round from the Avenger cannon on an A-10. A round, I might add, which is known for shredding main battle tanks.


And are those designed with an metal denser, or at the very least, capable of puncturing a tanks armor? A 96.5 kilojoule bullet isn't going to shred a battle tank obviously. Also, an Abrams has a double digit mJ cannon for its main gun.

Those rounds don't seem to shatter, and the reason that they're leaving visible beams is beyond me. And I'm not sure what you're getting at with the last part.


Their function is to shatter upon impact, as stated in the codex. If they weren't doing that, they would fly right through a target, causing it to receive a small amount of the KE of the bullet.

I personally recommend that we end this now. This is a massive thread derail. We both agree on the same fundamental principle of Shepard having a distinct advantage here. Nitpicking over how powerful his weapons are is just silly, and I apologize for starting this.


So is it agreed that Shephard wins?

#36 Jason Redfield

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:22 PM

And are those designed with an metal denser, or at the very least, capable of puncturing a tanks armor? A 96.5 kilojoule bullet isn't going to shred a battle tank obviously. Also, an Abrams has a double digit mJ cannon for its main gun.

A 96.5 KJ bullet won't shred a tank, but a burst of them might. Especially the top armor.



Their function is to shatter upon impact, as stated in the codex. If they weren't doing that, they would fly right through a target, causing it to receive a small amount of the KE of the bullet.

Like I said earlier, this, in a way, defies the physics of hypervelocity impacts. IIRC, both objects tend to "explode". This would make sense, because otherwise the round would simply penetrate, as it lacks the diameter of modern bullets to make a big hole, regardless of how much KE it carries.



So is it agreed that Shephard wins?

When was it not? I was supporting Shepard from the beginning, and I've done it before in the thread I linked in my first post.

#37 ricrery

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:24 PM

A 96.5 KJ bullet won't shred a tank, but a burst of them might. Especially the top armor.


And what if they aren't a dense enough material?

Like I said earlier, this, in a way, defies the physics of hypervelocity impacts. IIRC, both objects tend to "explode". This would make sense, because otherwise the round would simply penetrate, as it lacks the diameter of modern bullets to make a big hole, regardless of how much KE it carries.


Would "shatter" count as explode?

#38 Jason Redfield

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:29 PM

And what if they aren't a dense enough material?

Tougher to say. I'm not an end-all expert on physics, but enough would have sufficient KE to "erode" the armor. Either way, you have a round with a tiny surface area and EXTREMELY high velocity. Those are recipes for massive penetration (except for the whole explosion factor). Adding in good sectional density just makes more fun. In any case, tungsten rounds are mentioned regularly. No idea what most Mass Effect rounds are made of.

Would "shatter" count as explode?

It's possible that the writers intended the same thing, but that's not how I interpreted it from the context. The way they make it sound, it's as if the rounds are purposefully designed so as to squash like a modern-day hollow-point bullet. I really don't think they'd have a choice for anything other than an explosion.

#39 Skirmisher

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 12:44 AM

I still don't see how you got a 96.5 KJ energy yield for ME weapons. You haven't provided any substantial evidence that they do that amount of damage.

You showed a Face being blown up? Yeah, have you seen what a H&K PSG1 does to a Human Face? Pretty much the same thing. And it uses the same rounds that the MA5A-C uses... Except the MA5A-C has Higher Muzzle Velocities And Heavier Bullets... All that means Much more Damage, and as such, much more explody face.

You showed Bullets flying through two soldiers, except they didn't really... Sure one guy got it through the Gut, but that's Weak armour due to the fact that the Gut has to be flexible to allow the soldier to actually move, and the Lady that gets shot... not a Threw and Threw. Compare this to Any other Armour Penetrating round that Sails through most armour. A 7.62 AP NATO round cut's through even the thickest Kevlar vests like a hot knife through butter, only Ceramic plates seem to work, and even they don't stop the bullets half the time...

#40 Jason Redfield

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 01:04 AM

I still don't see how you got a 96.5 KJ energy yield for ME weapons. You haven't provided any substantial evidence that they do that amount of damage.

You showed a Face being blown up? Yeah, have you seen what a H&K PSG1 does to a Human Face? Pretty much the same thing. And it uses the same rounds that the MA5A-C uses... Except the MA5A-C has Higher Muzzle Velocities And Heavier Bullets... All that means Much more Damage, and as such, much more explody face.

You showed Bullets flying through two soldiers, except they didn't really... Sure one guy got it through the Gut, but that's Weak armour due to the fact that the Gut has to be flexible to allow the soldier to actually move, and the Lady that gets shot... not a Threw and Threw. Compare this to Any other Armour Penetrating round that Sails through most armour. A 7.62 AP NATO round cut's through even the thickest Kevlar vests like a hot knife through butter, only Ceramic plates seem to work, and even they don't stop the bullets half the time...


Err... I was showing those pictures to argue ricery's points. You're not saying anything new here. And SAPI/ESAPI plates laugh at even 7.62x51mm NATO armor-piercing rounds. In fact, they can take multiple hits from them.




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