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Master Chief vs Darth Vader


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#121 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 06:13 PM

"Because the bolt traveled at faster-than-light speeds, targets could show signs of damage before the visible portion of the bolt hit. This was because the visible portion, as well as most of the heat, was a side-effect of the actual, lethal bolt." Is there an IU source for this? I know it has been proposed by the tech commentaries, but I'm not sure if there's anything more substantial to support it. --Fade 21:26, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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Also, blasters don't fire plasma in a magnetic bottle, nothing in the Wookieepedia article mentions any such effect.

Doesn't mean its true, Ruinus.

#122 Ruinus

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 06:13 PM

Yeah. Funny thing, only things that are canon within EU are the novels and whatnot during the movies time-line from EP. 1 to Ep. 6. Novels after that or before that aren't canon. Why's that? Because the movies are the highest forms of canon or something?

Anyways, I'm getting tired of this. You go with what you want, I'll go with what I want.


The bolded part is a gigantic lie and you will back that up with some sort of quote.

#123 Ruinus

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 06:15 PM

Doesn't mean its true, Ruinus.


You mean when a book says says: "Because the bolt traveled at faster-than-light speeds, targets could show signs of damage before the visible portion of the bolt hit", and I post a screen cap from the movie showing the exact same thing, it's not true?

I want to know what definition of true you are using.

#124 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 06:20 PM

The bolded part is a gigantic lie and you will back that up with some sort of quote.


TOTAL FILM: "Are you happy for new Star Wars tales to be told after you're gone?"
LUCAS: "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."

Which obviously means after Vader's story.

Its also only about Vader from the beginning of the first Episode, so... anything before that, isn't canon.

Also: Let me clarifiy, I forgot to say this: within the Movie's universe.

#125 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 06:22 PM

You mean when a book says says: "Because the bolt traveled at faster-than-light speeds, targets could show signs of damage before the visible portion of the bolt hit", and I post a screen cap from the movie showing the exact same thing, it's not true?

I want to know what definition of true you are using.

I could show you a clip of Vader moving to block a blaster bolt, only after it was fired. This kinda casts a shadow on it being light speed, no? Plus the fact it was "PROPOSED", doesn't mean it IS.

#126 Ruinus

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 06:34 PM

TOTAL FILM: "Are you happy for new Star Wars tales to be told after you're gone?"
LUCAS: "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."

Which obviously means after Vader's story.

Its also only about Vader from the beginning of the first Episode, so... anything before that, isn't canon.

Also: Let me clarifiy, I forgot to say this: within the Movie's universe.


Highlighted the bolded parts. He's talking about the fact that he didn't invision Star Wars as going beyond the movies ("I mean, I never thought of anything.")

He's basically saying that, as far as he was concerned Star Wars was just about Vader, the story told in Eps 1-6, and that after that he had no story invisioned, since there was nothing left to tell. He then says that he knows that there are novels, but that they went in a direction that he wouldn't have. It's perfectly in line with my entire argument, he only cared about the movies, but let people go off in other directions. The other people can do whatever they want, except tell him how to make his movies.

It's odd, because Vader never comes back to life AFAIK.

#127 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 06:40 PM

Highlighted the bolded parts. He's talking about the fact that he didn't invision Star Wars as going beyond the movies ("I mean, I never thought of anything.")

He's basically saying that, as far as he was concerned Star Wars was just about Vader, the story told in Eps 1-6, and that after that he had no story invisioned, since there was nothing left to tell. He then says that he knows that there are novels, but that they went in a direction that he wouldn't have. It's perfectly in line with my entire argument, he only cared about the movies, but let people go off in other directions. The other people can do whatever they want, except tell him how to make his movies.

It's odd, because Vader never comes back to life AFAIK.

Um. Still not canon to his movies because they didn't go off into the direction he would have wanted them to, which is my argument at this point. Hell, the novels that have Luke getting married, etc, isn't what George would have done as per his statement, thus which leads me to this: Its not canon. Besides, anything after the movies isn't canon to the movies... or even before it.

Maybe he's thinking about Cade Skywalker's fighting Vader in that vision of his?

#128 Ruinus

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 06:55 PM

I could show you a clip of Vader moving to block a blaster bolt, only after it was fired. This kinda casts a shadow on it being light speed, no? Plus the fact it was "PROPOSED", doesn't mean it IS.


The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, page 3 wrote:
The final particle beam, or "bolt," contains high-energy particles that cause tremendous damage to anything they hit; the bolt's visible light is a harmless by-product of this reaction.

What's supposed to happen is the bolt is supposed to land at the same time as the c component of the beam, but sometimes this fails, leading to situations such as the one I posted, where a malfunction/uncalibrated blaster shots the c beam before the tracer part hits.

Mind, I don't really like this explanation a whole lot, but its the canon one.

#129 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 06:58 PM

The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, page 3 wrote:
The final particle beam, or "bolt," contains high-energy particles that cause tremendous damage to anything they hit; the bolt's visible light is a harmless by-product of this reaction.

What's supposed to happen is the bolt is supposed to land at the same time as the c component of the beam, but sometimes this fails, leading to situations such as the one I posted, where a malfunction/uncalibrated blaster shots the c beam before the tracer part hits.

Mind, I don't really like this explanation a whole lot, but its the canon one.

Interesting.

This is a lower canon than the movies right?

There's a clip that shows Vader's blocking the bolt after it was fired, thus proving that its not lightspeed, and if you watch the bolt that's within the light, you see it impact as the sparks emerge. The Han Solo clip to be exact.

So, if it conflicts with the higher canon, being that in this instance the movie, then the lower canon one is rendered Non-canon.

EDIT: My bad. Didn't read it through and slow. -.-

#130 Ruinus

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 07:03 PM

Um. Still not canon to his movies because they didn't go off into the direction he would have wanted them to, which is my argument at this point. Hell, the novels that have Luke getting married, etc, isn't what George would have done as per his statement, thus which leads me to this: Its not canon. Besides, anything after the movies isn't canon to the movies... or even before it.

Maybe he's thinking about Cade Skywalker's fighting Vader in that vision of his?


Again, it is canon (you can go online to Wookieepedia and see the canon policy), it's just not what he would have done. He's saying that what he originally intended was Ep 1-6, but what he ended up with is Ep 1-6, and a whole fanbase and franchise that spans several (hundreds? I dunno) of books, comics and games, that tell stories that he wouldn't have done.

Simply because he didn't intend them, or wouldn't have gone in those directions doesn't mean they are non-canon.

#131 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 07:15 PM

Again, it is canon (you can go online to Wookieepedia and see the canon policy), it's just not what he would have done. He's saying that what he originally intended was Ep 1-6, but what he ended up with is Ep 1-6, and a whole fanbase and franchise that spans several (hundreds? I dunno) of books, comics and games, that tell stories that he wouldn't have done.

Simply because he didn't intend them, or wouldn't have gone in those directions doesn't mean they are non-canon.

I do have a question:

Movies = G Canon.

Novels/Whatever = C Canon.

He didn't like the way they went off in the novels. Doesn't this mean that it conflicts with the interests of the movie as that is the area he's confined to as you so put it?

There is a policy that states if any of the lower canon stuff conflicts with the higher ones, its rendered non-canon.

So...? Doesn't this mean they're non-canon after all?

#132 Ruinus

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 07:15 PM

Again, mind that I don't actually like the explanation of blasters, but it is stated several times now.

Episode II: Incredible Cross-Sections:
Energy weapons fire invisible energy beams at lightspeed. The visible "bolt" is a glowing pulse that travels along the beam at less than lightspeed.


Shadows of the Empire, page 326:
A hard green beam of light flashed between the two ships. The sighting ray of a big ship's cannon--you couldn't see the laser itself in vacuum, of course, but it followed the ionized marker you could see precisely.

Destiny's Way:
He triggered the first pair of concussion missiles, knowing that unlike the laser cannon, they did not strike at the speed of light.


#133 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 07:17 PM

Again, mind that I don't actually like the explanation of blasters, but it is stated several times now.

Episode II: Incredible Cross-Sections:
Energy weapons fire invisible energy beams at lightspeed. The visible "bolt" is a glowing pulse that travels along the beam at less than lightspeed.


Shadows of the Empire, page 326:
A hard green beam of light flashed between the two ships. The sighting ray of a big ship's cannon--you couldn't see the laser itself in vacuum, of course, but it followed the ionized marker you could see precisely.

Destiny's Way:
He triggered the first pair of concussion missiles, knowing that unlike the laser cannon, they did not strike at the speed of light.

Then explain the instances where, like Vader and Han Solo, which are of the highest canon, do not follow this trend?

#134 Ruinus

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 07:33 PM

I do have a question:

Movies = G Canon.

Novels/Whatever = C Canon.

He didn't like the way they went off in the novels. Doesn't this mean that it conflicts with the interests of the movie as that is the area he's confined to as you so put it?

There is a policy that states if any of the lower canon stuff conflicts with the higher ones, its rendered non-canon.

So...? Doesn't this mean they're non-canon after all?


I'm pretty sure his "interest" in the movie isn't part of G-canon. For instance, you could say that Ep 4 was swash bucking pirate-western style, and hence Death Troopers (with its *vulgarity*ing zombie plague) is a horror-zombie SW story, and hence contradicts the "style" of SW.

But that's not how it goes, since Death Troopers is never contradicted by the movie. There is never a point in the movie where someone said "Zombie plagues are impossible".

Here's a way to look at canon. The movies are 100% absolute true. Everything below that starts losing % of truth. So a book is, say, 90%. Pretend there is a book called Everything you need to know about Darth Vader, in this book, lets say there is a char named Bob. While reading the book you come across this sentence:

"But Vader, being born on Alderaan, felt bad about the destruction of his homeworld," Bob said, after taking a drip of his blue milk.

Obviously, Vader was not born on Alderaan, so his statement is false. However, that doesn't mean that Everything you need to know about Darth Vader is non-canon, just that Bob's statement was wrong. Bobs statment was the 10% false, in a book of 90% truth.

The only possible way for an entire source to be non-canon (as far as I know) is if it's an Infinities label, which are "What If" stories. Everything in SW is canon, as long as there is no possible way, at all, to make sense of it.

#135 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 07:37 PM

I'm pretty sure his "interest" in the movie isn't part of G-canon. For instance, you could say that Ep 4 was swash bucking pirate-western style, and hence Death Troopers (with its *vulgarity*ing zombie plague) is a horror-zombie SW story, and hence contradicts the "style" of SW.

But that's not how it goes, since Death Troopers is never contradicted by the movie. There is never a point in the movie where someone said "Zombie plagues are impossible".

Here's a way to look at canon. The movies are 100% absolute true. Everything below that starts losing % of truth. So a book is, say, 90%. Pretend there is a book called Everything you need to know about Darth Vader, in this book, lets say there is a char named Bob. While reading the book you come across this sentence:

"But Vader, being born on Alderaan, felt bad about the destruction of his homeworld," Bob said, after taking a drip of his blue milk.

Obviously, Vader was not born on Alderaan, so his statement is false. However, that doesn't mean that Everything you need to know about Darth Vader is non-canon, just that Bob's statement was wrong. Bobs statment was the 10% false, in a book of 90% truth.

The only possible way for an entire source to be non-canon (as far as I know) is if it's an Infinities label, which are "What If" stories. Everything in SW is canon, as long as there is no possible way, at all, to make sense of it.

Or if it contradicts. -.-

Kay.

#136 Ruinus

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 07:40 PM

Then explain the instances where, like Vader and Han Solo, which are of the highest canon, do not follow this trend?


They do. Like I said, usually the bolt and the invisible part hit at the same time, so a bolt looks like its blowing up and damaging objects, but sometimes a badly maintained weapon fires the bolt incorrectly, causing the bolt to come after the invisible part.

So the scene you are talking about doesn't contradict the quotes. Han keeps his pistol well maintained, and hence the mechanisms all work correctly, beam and bolt at the correct times.

The image I showed above (and the one in ep 6 where Luke's hand is shot before the bolt hits his hand) can be explained easily: Han doesn't keep his remote droid properly tuned, because he doesn't use it, doesn't care, whatever. The gang member doesn't keep his gun properly tuned either, because he doesn't care, can't afford to, the sand gets everywhere, whatever.

Since blocking/dodging the bolt is essentially also blocking the invisible beam, it makes sense. The beam is still light speed, but doesn't hit instantly because there is a delay in firing and the light speed weapon actually being fired.

Oh, it's like a matchlock gun!
Old matchlock guns would strike the firing pin and the explosive gunpowder, making the small blast near the chamber. But that didn't mean the gun had fired, it just mean that it was about to. So untrained soldiers would assume the small flash near the chamber mean the gun had fired, and would move their aim, and when the gun actually fired, the bullet would miss because of the incorrect aim.

#137 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 07:45 PM

Um, it fired... before Vader's hand reached where it would hit.

#138 Ruinus

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:04 PM

6:12

It looks like he moves his hand up just as Han takes out his gun, so it's not like Han fires and there is a long delay between the blast actually hitting.

#139 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:07 PM

6:12

It looks like he moves his hand up just as Han takes out his gun, so it's not like Han fires and there is a long delay between the blast actually hitting.

Yeah, which proves its not lightspeed.

Also, he did fire just before Vader moved his hand... meaning, if it was light speed, it would have made it past his hand into his armor...

#140 ricrery

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:26 PM

Yes that is a 14 year old boy shitkicking 3 ODST's, the best of the best Navy Seal type badasses... and they didn't know what hit them until after they were dead.


Oh... you mean those same ODSTs with weapons worse than modern day Earth's? You same the same ODSTs butt*vulgarity*ed by aliens with low single digit kJ weapons? I would LOVE to see proof that they are as badass as you claim...




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