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#81 force_echo

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 04:25 PM

Woah woah woah, still in this. Ok, couple points before I forget them. The game mechanics sstuff is total bs, everything in a game is notcanon except for the cutscenes? Who made that up?! KOTOR barely has any cutscenes (there are many other games I could use as an example, including Rep. Commando, but im using KOTOR because im playing it right now), just intros that set the setting. That dosent mean everything in the game is noncanon. Another example is the dark side ending, that had a cutscene, but guess what, the KOTOR darkside ending is noncanon. On the other hand I agree that glitches, or incapabilities due to technology, should be noncannon. Like the blaster bolts in SW. Im not making up the speed of 22,000 kmph folks, if you look on Wookiepedia its even faster. But I used scientific common sense and determined the speed of free electrons should be the speed of blaster bolts, since they are the same thing. Another point, Skirmisher is basically making up reaction times, and I want a cite for Spartan time. Its not in any of the HALO cutscenes in any game. Unless its in Reach, which I doubt. Its not even in the comics. The reason Jedi can deflect blaster bolts, is because they know where they will hit before they are fired, and they have reflexes on par to Spider-Man. Im telling you, the only one-up MC has on Vader is strength. There were two other points I wanted to bring into light, but I forget them. Damn.

#82 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 04:39 PM

Woah woah woah, still in this. Ok, couple points before I forget them. The game mechanics sstuff is total bs, everything in a game is notcanon except for the cutscenes? Who made that up?! KOTOR barely has any cutscenes (there are many other games I could use as an example, including Rep. Commando, but im using KOTOR because im playing it right now), just intros that set the setting. That dosent mean everything in the game is noncanon. Another example is the dark side ending, that had a cutscene, but guess what, the KOTOR darkside ending is noncanon. On the other hand I agree that glitches, or incapabilities due to technology, should be noncannon. Like the blaster bolts in SW. Im not making up the speed of 22,000 kmph folks, if you look on Wookiepedia its even faster. But I used scientific common sense and determined the speed of free electrons should be the speed of blaster bolts, since they are the same thing. Another point, Skirmisher is basically making up reaction times, and I want a cite for Spartan time. Its not in any of the HALO cutscenes in any game. Unless its in Reach, which I doubt. Its not even in the comics. The reason Jedi can deflect blaster bolts, is because they know where they will hit before they are fired, and they have reflexes on par to Spider-Man. Im telling you, the only one-up MC has on Vader is strength. There were two other points I wanted to bring into light, but I forget them. Damn.

There was a section where LucasArts did say game mechanics were non-canon. I forget where this was said... Skirmisher, please explain this to him.

The blaster bolt scene in where Han shoots at Vader shows otherwise.

KOTOR's game mechanics and gameplay is non canon, however, Revan's story throughout the game and ending is canon, except for the darkside ending.

I still think Spiderman's faster. Meh. Spiderman's not in SW. Nor Halo for that matter.

Think about it, if you had Spartan Time in the game, everything would be slowed down, all your enemies being slow like statues and you're moving all over the battlefield rapidly... you'd be a god and that would be epically... boring, no? That's why its not in the game. And Skirmishers posted examples from the novels. Go and read these.

#83 Skirmisher

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 01:50 AM

There was a section where LucasArts did say game mechanics were non-canon. I forget where this was said... Skirmisher, please explain this to him.

Will do


http://starwars.wiki...Canon_and_games

The overall scenario and documentation (cutscenes, manuals, strategy guides etc) are proper EU (see C-canon below). This, however, doesn't apply to "game mechanics" and stats.

  • Game mechanics are the "artistic license" properties of the game that separate any computer game from reality and serve to make one more playable and enjoyable; for example Kyle Katarn carrying 10 weapons simultaneously, fully and immediately recovering from wounds simply by touching a bacta tank, bodies of defeated enemies disappearing etc., are things not realistically possible. Game mechanics are also some special effects accompanying the use of Force powers, such as sounds and glow surrounding the caster, which never appear in the movies. Health, shield, and Force repository are also game mechanics.

  • Background information given in the RPG sourcebooks such as biographies, stories, blueprints, etc. is proper canon. Stats, on the contrary, are considered game mechanics. Stats include details such as weapon damage, speed, and character attributes (strength, intelligence, dexterity, health points etc).

  • In mission and quest solving, canon is assumed to be the fullest and best outcome possible of each mission/quest available as given in the briefing or scenario. Kyle Katarn, Keyan Farlander, Maarek Stele, Jaden Korr, etc. never failed their quests. Although the player can avoid some optional quests, Wookieepedia assumes that those heroes managed to complete all the "available" feats.

  • Problems can arise with customizable options such as the species or gender or alignment of the main character, until Lucasfilm releases a definite answer on this.

    So far all game characters with customizable gender, except the Jedi Exile, have been canonized to be male.

  • In side-choosing games such as the Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic series and Dark Forces saga where the player has the choice between light side and dark side, as of yet, the light side ending has been verified as canonical by Lucasfilm in all games.

    It is not known however if it does impose additional restrictions on the secondary story and the outcome of any individual alignment-defining sidequest or choice in the game since they are not strictly set. For example the protagonist of KOTOR canonically followed the light and helped the Galactic Republic destroy the Star Forge but that doesn't mean that he didn't kill Bendak Starkiller or that he didn't join the GenoHaradan (both dark-aligned options in the game).

    However, Wookieepedia articles assume that the player picks the light side choice for all scenarios; therefore, even the secondary choices and events pertaining to the dark side or triggered by relevant choices, are considered non-canon.

  • On the other hand, ambiguity is maintained when it comes to alternative choices and solutions to puzzles with the same outcome. For example in KOTOR, the fate of droid C8-42, or the responses to Rutum, is up to the player; although dark side options can be excluded according to the above, there are still several neutral or light-sided options possible to choose from; and none of them can be taken for sure to be the 'true' one.

  • In-game events and characters that are 'triggered' when the non-canonical gender or alignment is selected are non-canon as well. For example Hanharr is not considered to have followed the Jedi Exile, since Hanharr joins the player only in the non-canonical Dark Side outcome of the game.


#84 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 06:59 AM

Interesting...

In July 2001, Lucas gave his opinion on the matter of what is canon in Star Wars during an interview with Cinescape magazine:

"There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."


and...

Further, in an August 2005 interview in Starlog magazine:

STARLOG: "The Star Wars Universe is so large and diverse. Do you ever find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics, and other offshoots?"

LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."


and...

During ShoWest 2008, Lucas gave an interview where he mentioned the difference between "his world", "the licensing world" and the "fans' world":

Interviewer: "Do you think you'd have other people continue the Star Wars saga past Episode VI or turn some of the other material into films?"

Lucas: "But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books. But there's three worlds: There's my world that I made up, there's the licensing world that's the books, the comics, all that kind of stuff, the games, which is their world, and then there's the fans' world, which is also very rich in imagination, but they don't always mesh. All I'm in charge of is my world. I can't be in charge of those other people's world, because I can't keep up with it."


and...

Another noteworthy exchange between Lucas and an interviewer appeared in the May 2008 edition of Total Film magazine:

TOTAL FILM: "The Star Wars universe has expanded far beyond the movies. How much leeway do the game makers and novel writers have?"

LUCAS: "They have their own kind of world. There's three pillars of Star Wars. I'll probably get in trouble for this but it's OK! There's three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I'm the father, Howard Roffman [president of Lucas Licensing] is the son and the holy ghost is the fans, this kind of ethereal world of people coming up with all kinds of different ideas and histories. Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves. Howard tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it's hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there's the TV show and then there's all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other. So I said, "OK, go ahead." In the early days I told them that they couldn't do anything about how Darth Vader was born, for obvious reasons, but otherwise I pretty much let them do whatever they wanted. They created this whole amazing universe that goes on for millions of years!"



Apparently... in that one scan of Vader looking for Obi-Wan Kenobi and his pwning all these Knights and Masters isn't canon to the Vader from the movies... As its comic Vader from the "parallel" universe performing this feat, this feat is exempt from the movie Vader and is not his feat at all. The same could be said for Movie Vader perfoming that deflection feat on Bespin, which Comic Vader doesn't have as he's from the "parallel" universe. So, let's try to keep the feats of both universes to their respective areas/universes.

Reason I say this is because its in effect the same concept of Age of Apocalypse Magneto pwning Apocalypse via shredding his body with his powers, but the Mainstream 616 Magneto doesn't have this feat and can't be said to do the same thing. I believe this applies here as well, considering what Lucas has said. -.-

And no, I'm not saying they're not canon, just that they're separate from each other.

#85 Ruinus

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 10:52 AM

Oh jesus a *vulgarity*ing canon debate... :P

I mean, it's pretty clear that he considered them seperate because they don't influence each other.

The EU can (and has) said whatever the hell it wants. The most blatant example is Coruscant. Before Phantom Menace the descriptions of Coruscant were inconsistent, and a few of them even show Coruscant as still having surface that isn't covered in city. Then Phantom Menace came out and shredded all those descriptions and images.

When it comes down to it Mr. Lucas only has to worry about the movies (not anymore though, I suppose) and whatever he is currently working on (the TV series). He doesn't have to go out and check with anyone else if what he is about to do is going to render some people's work non-canon (though it sounds like he at least tries not to). But if he really wanted to, he could make something in SW that renders everyone else non-canon and old.

The EU, on the other hand, does have to follow what's in the movies, but can't affect the movies in any way at all.

#86 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:00 AM

Oh jesus a *vulgarity*ing canon debate... :P

I mean, it's pretty clear that he considered them seperate because they don't influence each other.

The EU can (and has) said whatever the hell it wants. The most blatant example is Coruscant. Before Phantom Menace the descriptions of Coruscant were inconsistent, and a few of them even show Coruscant as still having surface that isn't covered in city. Then Phantom Menace came out and shredded all those descriptions and images.

When it comes down to it Mr. Lucas only has to worry about the movies (not anymore though, I suppose) and whatever he is currently working on (the TV series). He doesn't have to go out and check with anyone else if what he is about to do is going to render some people's work non-canon (though it sounds like he at least tries not to). But if he really wanted to, he could make something in SW that renders everyone else non-canon and old.

The EU, on the other hand, does have to follow what's in the movies, but can't affect the movies in any way at all.

Yeah, but anything after his Star Wars, not part of his world. Just like anything before it, not part of his world.

Can you see why?

#87 Ruinus

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:08 PM

Right. Anything that isn't the movies or the show he doesn't care about, because he can trample it and everyone would simply have to say "Thank you sir may I have another?". The EU, on the other hand, can do whatever it wants, but can't infringe on the movies. All he works in is the movies and the show, he doesn't work in anything else. The EU people work in the EU, not the show or movies.

Or are you just jumping on the word "world" and "parallel universe" and thinking that there is one setting with only the SW movies, and another setting with the SW+ the EU, instead of him simply refering to the area of his work?

#88 Skirmisher

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:14 PM

In regards to Canon... I can't wait for the Live Action show to render Force Unleashed Moot.

Afterall I've heard that they're getting Sam Witwer to play Starkiller... and Force Users in Main Cannon Material never preform as well as their EU counterparts.

#89 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:22 PM

Its separate from his world. The comics/novels/whatever is separate from his movies. They can't infringe on them, correct, and they do have to follow the movies but they're in their own universe because he seems them as a parallel universe. Logically, this means, like in the example I presented earlier, feats from a parallel universe are not a part of another universe.

Parallel universe... mentioned twice. By him and by Howard Roffman (indirectly).

Lucas even says that there are worlds for this.

One for his movies and one for the other stuff.

Yeah, these are his areas, but that's what he's said, consistently, that they're separate from his world, as he sees them as another universe/world.

And not to mention: They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.

This means that not every single thing follow the guidelines and his tenets as its their universe. Mostly do follow but not all of them... which further adds weight to my argument that feats from this "parallel" universe shouldn't be used for the other universe. If it was that all of them followed, I might not even be saying this paragraph.

And I wasn't contesting the canon part, just that they're separate... which was the last sentence in my second previous post.

#90 force_echo

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:24 PM

Lucas was trying to say that he dosent affect the EU and the EU dosent affect the movies, you misinterpreted him, everyone knows that the EU is definitely cannon. There are no two universes, its not like Earth 616 and Acopolaypse Earth, there is only one SW universe. The fact that the EU has to adhere to the movies proves this, not repudiates it. Unless youre talking about the What If series or SW Tales.

#91 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:28 PM

Am I getting this right, is JP trying to pull of the ENTIRE EU AS NONCANNON?! Lucas was trying to say that he dosent affect the EU and the EU dosent affect the movies, you misinterpreted him, everyone knows that the EU is definitely cannon. There are no two universes, its not like Earth 616 and Acopolaypse Earth, there is only one SW universe. Unless youre talking about the What If series or SW Tales.

I'll say it again, I NEVER SAID IT WAS NON-CANON. I've said this thrice now. Just that its SEPARATE from EACH OTHER. I'm now entirely convinced you do not know how to read.

Besides that... it is what Lucas said. He said it was a parallel universe. Take it up with him.

#92 force_echo

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:31 PM

I'll say it again, I NEVER SAID IT WAS NON-CANON. I've said this thrice now. Just that its SEPARATE from EACH OTHER. I'm now entirely convinced you do not know how to read.

Besides that... it is what Lucas said. He said it was a parallel universe. Take it up with him.

Chill out bro, I edited, like while you were posting.

#93 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 03:33 PM

Chill out bro, I edited, like while you were posting.

Yeah, well, repeating stuff gets old. -.-

Very old.

*vulgarity* it.

I'm done with this thread.

#94 thetrekker

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:00 PM

Yeah, well, repeating stuff gets old. -.-

Very old.

*vulgarity* it.

I'm done with this thread.

Any one thinking take two beers and jump here?

#95 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:46 PM

Any one thinking take two beers and jump here?

*breaks his last post*

I have no idea what that is about considering I have a hearing loss. -.-

And YouTube's captionings SUCK.

#96 thetrekker

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 08:48 PM

*breaks his last post*

I have no idea what that is about considering I have a hearing loss. -.-

And YouTube's captionings SUCK.

DOOOOH'. My super bad. Anywhose, you know that jet blue employee who said
"to the passenger who said 'F**K off' to me F**K YOU."
Steve Slater (An American Hero) then grabbed two beers and activated the emergency slide out the back before running off.
read the story here.

Well late night host jimmy fallon wrote a ballad celebrating him. Your descision to quit the post reminded me of him.

#97 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 08:51 PM

DOOOOH'. My super bad. Anywhose, you know that jet blue employee who said
"to the passenger who said 'F**K off' to me F**K YOU."
Steve Slater (An American Hero) then grabbed two beers and activated the emergency slide out the back before running off.
read the story here.

Well late night host jimmy fallon wrote a ballad celebrating him. Your descision to quit the post reminded me of him.

Heh.

Wait, I'm a hero? o.0 Yay?

#98 Ruinus

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 11:34 AM

Its separate from his world. The comics/novels/whatever is separate from his movies. They can't infringe on them, correct, and they do have to follow the movies but they're in their own universe because he seems them as a parallel universe. Logically, this means, like in the example I presented earlier, feats from a parallel universe are not a part of another universe.

Parallel universe... mentioned twice. By him and by Howard Roffman (indirectly).

Lucas even says that there are worlds for this.

One for his movies and one for the other stuff.

Yeah, these are his areas, but that's what he's said, consistently, that they're separate from his world, as he sees them as another universe/world.

And not to mention: They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.

This means that not every single thing follow the guidelines and his tenets as its their universe. Mostly do follow but not all of them... which further adds weight to my argument that feats from this "parallel" universe shouldn't be used for the other universe. If it was that all of them followed, I might not even be saying this paragraph.

And I wasn't contesting the canon part, just that they're separate... which was the last sentence in my second previous post.


Except that when he says "worlds" and "parallel universe" he is very obviously talking about merchandising.

Lucas: "But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books. But there's three worlds: There's my world that I made up, there's the licensing world that's the books, the comics, all that kind of stuff, the games, which is their world, and then there's the fans' world, which is also very rich in imagination, but they don't always mesh. All I'm in charge of is my world. I can't be in charge of those other people's world, because I can't keep up with it."

All he's saying is:
"I just work the movies, everyone else works everything else".

He's not saying "There is Vader from Ep 3-6 and then theres Vader from Ep 3-6+EU".

#99 force_echo

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 11:53 AM

Ok I think blaster bolt speeds are movie mechanics too, like Matrix bullet rings. Its an artistic thing, poeple actually want to see the bb on screen, it makes the setting more chaotic/warlike/awesome. In canon, the bolt actually travels at 22,000 kmph.

#100 Skirmisher

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 12:21 PM

Ok I think blaster bolt speeds are movie mechanics too, like Matrix bullet rings. Its an artistic thing, poeple actually want to see the bb on screen, it makes the setting more chaotic/warlike/awesome. In canon, the bolt actually travels at 22,000 kmph.

Proof?

Based on Jedi Deflection of Bolts, Blaster's cannot fire faster than we can see them firing...

Also, Movie Mechanics? Yeah they'd be 100% Canon as they are from the Movie.




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