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Master Chief vs Darth Vader


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#61 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 03:38 PM

Wasn't the glove microizonized to deflect anything short of a lightsaber...? And it looks like it impacted with his hand because if he had deflected it with the force, there would have been no sparks... correct?

On another note, Han fired his blaster before Vader raised his hand to deflect it... looks like its not at the speeds force_echo's putting across... -.- Otherwise, if it was at the speeds force_echo specified, Vader should be dead right then and there and Han Solo would be then crowned a hero for slaying the bastard. -.-

#62 thetrekker

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 03:57 PM

Wasn't the glove microizonized to deflect anything short of a lightsaber...? And it looks like it impacted with his hand because if he had deflected it with the force, there would have been no sparks... correct?

On another note, Han fired his blaster before Vader raised his hand to deflect it... looks like its not at the speeds force_echo's putting across... -.-

Great example of blaster speeds. Checkmate force_echo. JK. B) but on the other hand (pun intended) "Trioculus was ignorant of the fact that this ability was an aspect of Darth Vader's aptitude with the Force, and had nothing at all to do with his glove." Talking about Vader's right glove (which he is using in the pictures) source: wookiepedia. It talks about long range attack's but I believe that it was just an ordinary glove.

Besides, doesn't it look like the bolt explodes before it touches his glove. Maybe the sparks were just a show of force (GAWD I"M PUNNY). I don't want to get involved in this argument to much because I don't want to get destroyed by skirm or ruinus, and I don't want to fight you again Jaeger.

#63 Skirmisher

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:02 PM

Luke, blind, able to move his saber to the exact spot where the bolts would land.

Because the Force allowed him to anticipate where the bolt would strike. It's not as if he said anything to the effect that he could actually See where the bolt would be moments before it hits. Obi-wan even says to act on instinct for that moment, to feel it... Thus, it only allows the Jedi/Sith to anticipate what might happen, not give them a Perfect Vision of what will happen.


Children, blind, able to move their sabers to the exact spot where the bolts would land.

Once again, this shows no proof that they have a Perfect Vision of what will happen, just a feeling that they have to move their sabers to a specific place to block a bolt.


2) Beside the point, Vader knew clearly that they would be there, not from the force but from his video surveillance, multiple contacts, and Lando himself, so there was NO way in hell he could have been surprised by that... He also needed Han alive to lure Luke to Bispin and freeze him for the Emperor.

3-5) Assumes the MC can react to Force Push beyond "try to land on feet". Why would the Force Push be weak enough that MC would be able to retaliate instantely?

Hell, it also assumes Vader doesn't immediately use Force Grip afterwards.

You assume to much about the Force, maybe you should let it rest because you might bruise something from all that Wanking you're doing...


Oh oops. Fighting Jedi/Sith who are trained to block/dodge such attacks and also have precog, and can also cloud your own senses, is totally different than fighting a person who can't.

He didn't use instant TK because he didn't need to. He goes on to kill 4 Jedi Masters and 3 Jedi Knights, both by saber skill and by impaling one of them by TKing his severered hand (holding sword) into a Knight's chest. He then Force Grips the Jedi Master (posted the image a while back) mid air and let's his clones have it.

Yeah, but Instant Reaction to danger was "Saber though the chest"... not "TK dat beotch"....

Mine in Olive

Amazing example, thats checkmate right there.

Shows how much you know...

#64 Ruinus

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:28 PM

It's not as if he said anything to the effect that he could actually See where the bolt would be moments before it hits.



Qui-Gon: "He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It's a Jedi trait."

2) Beside the point, Vader knew clearly that they would be there, not from the force but from his video surveillance, multiple contacts, and Lando himself, so there was NO way in hell he could have been surprised by that... He also needed Han alive to lure Luke to Bispin and freeze him for the Emperor.


The hell? It doesn't matter if he needed Han or not for something else, it doesn't even matter if Vader saw Han and co outside the door through a security feed, the point of the image was that your statement:

They Draw their Saber and Deflect it, they don't Force Dodge, they don't Force Absorb. I know that he would eventually try to TK the Chief, but I am saying that Instinctively it is not his first Answer.

Is wrong. The first thing he did was deflect the bolts with his hand.

You assume to much about the Force, maybe you should let it rest because you might bruise something from all that Wanking you're doing...


Not an actual argument. Force precog, the ability to see things before they happen, TKing things around (including metal doors) and Force grip are all in Vaders capability.

Yeah, but Instant Reaction to danger was "Saber though the chest"... not
"TK dat beotch"....


Given how fast she died, why would he need to TK her?

#65 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:33 PM

Great example of blaster speeds. Checkmate force_echo. JK. B) but on the other hand (pun intended) "Trioculus was ignorant of the fact that this ability was an aspect of Darth Vader's aptitude with the Force, and had nothing at all to do with his glove." Talking about Vader's right glove (which he is using in the pictures) source: wookiepedia. It talks about long range attack's but I believe that it was just an ordinary glove.

Besides, doesn't it look like the bolt explodes before it touches his glove. Maybe the sparks were just a show of force (GAWD I"M PUNNY). I don't want to get involved in this argument to much because I don't want to get destroyed by skirm or ruinus, and I don't want to fight you again Jaeger.

Not, the sparks seem to emanate from his hand. To me it seems anyways. -.-

And here:

Posted Image

Posted Image

The second one, I actually tried to get it and I actually had the bolt JUST about to impact his hand before it disappears and explodes into the sparks. I failed to save the picture however and this is the best I can do...

However, besides that, can you see how I'm thinking that the sparks are emanating from his hands because the bolts are actually hitting his hand? Especially the first one. BTW, sorry about the color... best quality I could find. -.-

Oh... and shame on you for trying to trick me about the glove....

"The gauntlet's value as a symbol was of little use to the three-eyed mutant, but its potential for use as a weapon was considered to be incalculable. It was his belief that the glove was actually a mystical relic that provided its wearer with the ability to telekinetically attack others from a distance. Trioculus was ignorant of the fact that this ability was an aspect of Darth Vader's aptitude with the Force, and had nothing at all to do with his glove."

SOURCE: WOOKIEPEDIA

It's talking about Vader's ability to use the Force, and Trioculus's false belief in that the glove provided the user the telekinetic powers afforded by the Force... mentioning nothing of its ability of deflecting stuff as well as Vader's feat of actually having had deflected stuff.

Here:

"His gloves were made with a unique micronized iron that could deflect anything short of a lightsaber blow"

http://starwars.wiki...h_Vader's_armor

In the Limbs section.

He used Force Perception or whatever to follow where the bolts would come but the glove did all the deflecting.

EDIT: Honestly, there's a link within the Darth Vader Armor link that takes you to that exact same location of Trioculus and the glove... right in the same sentence of it being able to deflect shit.

#66 Ruinus

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:42 PM

Force Absorb. Jedi/Sith can absorb blaster bolts, lightning (and even lightsabers?!?!?!) and use that energy themselves. However, given that in all those images and examples the Force user is not wearing gloves, it's possible that Vader was using his gloves. He never showed the ability to do so (AFAIK) before being in his suit, and we don't know if he learnend to do so without gloves on.

#67 Skirmisher

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:46 PM



The point of the images was that your statement:
The only time that Force Users ACTUALLY get visual Precognitive Images of what is to be is when they are Meditating, or concentrating on the future specifically. Even then it is Vague and Fuzzy and doesn't tell you *vulgarity* all, but it still requires time and thought on the subject!

Is wrong on all accounts.

Either the Force tells them what is going to happen (You are going to get shot, move your hands this much, the saber this much, etc etc) or it simply gives them the image of what they are supposed to do. Or, the Force completely takes over their body and moves it for them. (The whole, give in to the moment, feel it, Use the Force etc etc thing they say).

Neither Luke, nor any of those younglings were meditating or concecntrating on the future specifically, Jedi precog occurs naturally through battle, all the time.

Either it requires no thought (Since Luke and the kids can't see, and don't know when the remote will fire. They still block anyways), or it does require thought and the precog comes early enough for them to still block the attack.

Also, I don't care if its not a perfect vision, its a good enough vision that even kids can know how to move their lightsabers to block a bolt. In fact, when did I ever claim he needed a perfect vision?

Completely Irrelevant to the Discussion at hand

Your whole point was that Vader would see Exactly where the chief was, what he was doing, what he was going to do, when he would do it, how he would do it, as if it were all a movie being played out in front of him.

I'm saying that all it does in battle is gives the user the ability to Anticipate his opponents actions, as such it would allow the force user to anticipate Where to move his/her blade to block a bolt.


http://starwars.wiki...ki/Precognition

"Battle Precognition was a variant of precognition that allowed one to sense the flows of the Force."

=/=

http://starwars.wiki...ki/Force_Vision

"Generally, when peering deep into the Force, a Force user had the potential to see events that could happen in the future. Force Visions were extremely rare, and uncontrollable. Often, one would meditate to gain a vision, but only a few would actually succeed."


All Vader would know is:

1) The Chief will kill him if he doesn't act fast
2) The Chief will physically strike him with a Dangerous Weapon
3) Where the Chief will strike at him with the Weapon

That is all.


The hell? It doesn't matter if he needed Han or not for something else, it doesn't even matter if Vader saw Han and co outside the door through a security feed, the point of the image was that your statement:

They Draw their Saber and Deflect it, they don't Force Dodge, they don't Force Absorb. I know that he would eventually try to TK the Chief, but I am saying that Instinctively it is not his first Answer.

Is wrong. The first thing he did was deflect the bolts with his hand.

Actually you're wrong, so wrong that I pity you...

They Draw their Saber and Deflect it, they don't Force Dodge, they don't Force Absorb. I know that he would eventually try to TK the Chief, but I am saying that Instinctively it is not his first Answer.

In a surprise situation Instinct is the Key word here. If Vader never knew that Han was on the other side of the door, or that Han was even on Cloud City, of anything like that he would have Pulled his lightsaber out to deflect the attack.

You have only shown that Vader with FULL KNOWLEDGE ABOUT WHERE AND WHAT HAN WAS DOING FORMULATED A PLAN TO NOT INJURE HAN yet AND USE HIM AS BAIT....

Please come back with an actual argument next time...


Not an actual argument. Force precog, the ability to see things before they happen, TKing things around (including metal doors) and Force grip are all in Vaders capability.

Yes, but you seem to confuse Force Visions with Battle Precognition, and over extimate the actual worth of Battle Precognition.


Given how fast she died, why would he need to TK her?

IDK, ask her the location of Obi-Wan? But also notice the Instinctive Saber defense... not the Instinctive TK Grip/Push/Throw/Crush....

#68 thetrekker

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:48 PM

Not, the sparks seem to emanate from his hand. To me it seems anyways. -.-

The second one, I actually tried to get it and I actually had the bolt JUST about to impact his hand before it disappears and explodes into the sparks. I failed to save the picture however and this is the best I can do...

However, besides that, can you see how I'm thinking that the sparks are emanating from his hands because the bolts are actually hitting his hand? Especially the first one. BTW, sorry about the color... best quality I could find. -.-

Oh... and shame on you for trying to trick me about the glove....

"The gauntlet's value as a symbol was of little use to the three-eyed mutant, but its potential for use as a weapon was considered to be incalculable. It was his belief that the glove was actually a mystical relic that provided its wearer with the ability to telekinetically attack others from a distance. Trioculus was ignorant of the fact that this ability was an aspect of Darth Vader's aptitude with the Force, and had nothing at all to do with his glove."

SOURCE: WOOKIEPEDIA

It's talking about Vader's ability to use the Force, and Trioculus's false belief in that the glove provided the user the telekinetic powers afforded by the Force... mentioning nothing of its ability of deflecting stuff as well as Vader's feat of actually having had deflected stuff.

Here:

"His gloves were made with a unique micronized iron that could deflect anything short of a lightsaber blow"

http://starwars.wiki...h_Vader's_armor

In the Limbs section.

EDIT: Honestly, there's a link within the Darth Vader Armor link that takes you to that exact same location of Trioculus and the glove... right in the same sentence of it being able to deflect shit.


Forgive me, I was only using the article to my advantage, cutting things off to suit my purposes. I didn't look at that link because I directly searched for "vader glove" on wookiepedia. I'm supposed to be doing some literary analysis writing, but that is boring plus my other reason for not wanting to fight you.

As per the pictures, (in the first one) I can't really tell where the bolt begins, but in the second one, it looks like the bolt is a 1/100000000000 of a second away before hitting his hand. I'm still debating whether Vader exploded the bolt after that time, or whether his glove reacted with it.

I admit my surrender on the argument.

#69 Ruinus

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 05:02 PM

Completely Irrelevant to the Discussion at hand

Your whole point was that Vader would see Exactly where the chief was, what he was doing, what he was going to do, when he would do it, how he would do it, as if it were all a movie being played out in front of him.


Qui-Gon: "He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It's a Jedi trait."

Actually you're wrong, so wrong that I pity you...

Please come back with an actual argument next time...


All he knew was that Han was outside, not that he would fire on him. For that he had his Force precog, and again, simply put out his hand.

Show Vader being ambushed and him not using Force absorb or some TK or similar.

What would it matter? In your scenario with the doors and Vader and MC meeting each other, Vader will know that MC is on the other side. The only way Vader would not know before hand about MCs impending attacks would be if you take away his precog power completely.

Yes, but you seem to confuse Force Visions with Battle Precognition, and over extimate the actual worth of Battle Precognition.


Again:
Qui-Gon: "He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It's a Jedi trait."

IDK, ask her the location of Obi-Wan? But also notice the Instinctive Saber defense... not the Instinctive TK Grip/Push/Throw/Crush....


And again: why would he NEED to use TK on her? She died IMMEDIATELY. It's like asking someone why they didn't get the insecticide to kill that bug, after they just step on it.

#70 Skirmisher

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 05:12 PM

Hmm... Pulling the video out and aliasing the frames for the Gauntlet attack...


# = Frame

#1 ~ Han is pointing the blaster at Vader and you can see the muzzle flash
#2 ~ Nothing has changed except no mussel flash
#3 ~ The Bolt is half way across the table
#4 ~ The Bolt is at Vader's hand
#5 ~ Cloned Frame, same as last
#6 ~ Bolt Disappears, Closer inspection shows that all that is visible is the smaller tail end of the bolt, with the rest presumably in the Glove
#7 ~ Bright Flash


However the Next Blaster bolt that we can see from In Front of Vader shows that Afterwards on Vaders palm there is a slight mark or discolouration where the blaster bolt would have hit.

Presumably he intercepted the Bolts with his super gloves and let them do the same work a Light Saber would have done, without they messy Reflected shot to worry about.

#71 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 05:13 PM

Forgive me, I was only using the article to my advantage, cutting things off to suit my purposes. I didn't look at that link because I directly searched for "vader glove" on wookiepedia. I'm supposed to be doing some literary analysis writing, but that is boring plus my other reason for not wanting to fight you.

As per the pictures, (in the first one) I can't really tell where the bolt begins, but in the second one, it looks like the bolt is a 1/100000000000 of a second away before hitting his hand. I'm still debating whether Vader exploded the bolt after that time, or whether his glove reacted with it.

I admit my surrender on the argument.

Yeah, literary analysis SUCK. I have to do them everyday. B) And please, don't do it again.

Well, I actually had a closer picture of it but lost that. Please take a closer look at it when you have the time. I see the tip about to impact with Vader's hand. Its hard to see and if you wish, I can highlight it for you.

I'm actually still wondering what you mean by not wanting to fight me. I forgot any other times we've fought before... oh, wait, Pokemon? Meh. -.-

@ Ruinus, I don't think he's ever used that, he seems to mainly focus on the use of his saber, Force Choke, Crush, and telekinesis...

#72 Skirmisher

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 05:41 PM

Qui-Gon: "He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It's a Jedi trait."

Face/palm

Yes, and seeing things before they happen is covered in Force Vision.

The Reason why that would give him quick reflexes is because he would have anticipated what would happen based on those visions. Much like Groundhog Day staring Bill Murry..

Except Force Visions are still vague and indecisive. The only thing Anakin has over the rest is that he usually get's his visions in his Dreams as well... which as young Anakin would give him the apparent subconscious ability to pilot a pod racer.

However... http://starwars.wiki...ki/Force_vision

"Force vision had its limitations. The user—particularly if he or she was a Sith—was incapable of foreseeing their own death. Palpatine never in his visions of the future saw himself die. Darth Caedus also saw many possibilities of the future, yet none of them involved his death. It is unknown why this limitation occurred."

Anakin after becoming Vader lost the one part of that ability which would save him... In a surprise situation against the Chief, without a perfect vision of what would happen he would die. As such because he would Die, he would not have a Vision of this event.


Another thing... when Qui-Gon caught Jar-Jar's tongue he wasn't that fast...


All he knew was that Han was outside, not that he would fire on him. For that he had his Force precog, and again, simply put out his hand.

Any Idiot would understand that Han would have fired at him...

"Hmm... I am the Commander of a Task Force that is hunting the Rebels... I just destroyed their base at Hoth, and had chased the Millennium Falcon through an asteroid field... Now I have cornered them here on Cloud City... I think they will be happy to see me, after all... I bought them a nice "I'm 'Sowwy' Cake" for nearly killing them several times..."

He knew Han was there, he Knew Han was armed, jimmy the mentally deficient simple in the corner knew that Han would want to do bad things to Vader... Why can't you see that?


Show Vader being ambushed and him not using Force absorb or some TK or similar.

Posted Image


What would it matter? In your scenario with the doors and Vader and MC meeting each other, Vader will know that MC is on the other side. The only way Vader would not know before hand about MCs impending attacks would be if you take away his precog power completely.

No, I'm saying that Precog in general isn't as good as you're wanking it to be... Like I said before...

All Vader would know is:

1) The Chief will kill him if he doesn't act fast
2) The Chief will physically strike him with a Dangerous Weapon
3) Where the Chief will strike at him with the Weapon

That is all.


And again: why would he NEED to use TK on her? She died IMMEDIATELY. It's like asking someone why they didn't get the insecticide to kill that bug, after they just step on it.

Not the Point, stop trying to side-step the issue...

Vader's Instinctive Reaction to getting attacked was to use his Saber. Not TK

#73 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 06:24 PM

Wait, you're saying he can use Force Absorb though he's never been shown to use it or been portrayed as using it?

WTF?

#74 Ruinus

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 06:31 PM

Face/palm

Yes, and seeing things before they happen is covered in Force Vision.


Except that a Force Vision is the ones you get about the future, events that will happen (Padme dying during childbirth, Anakin's mother dying, etc). What Qui-gon was talking about is precognition, not Anakin sleeping and seeing the entire race unfold before him during a dream.

Who the hell cares if Qui-gon was fast or not? He was just grabbing Jar Jars tongue for christ sake.

He knew Han was there, he Knew Han was armed, jimmy the mentally deficient simple in the corner knew that Han would want to do bad things to Vader... Why can't you see that?


Why can't you see Vader blocking the shots exactly where they would have hit? Again, precog.

Image snip

Oops, that's Vader walking in already expecting shit with his lightsaber, not Vader being ambushed.

No, I'm saying that Precog in general isn't as good as you're wanking it to be... Like I said before...

All Vader would know is:

1) The Chief will kill him if he doesn't act fast
2) The Chief will physically strike him with a Dangerous Weapon
3) Where the Chief will strike at him with the Weapon

That is all.


And again, you are ignoring Qui-gon's comment in Ep I and pretending its a Force Vision instead of precog. The Force tells people what do to (hence, Luke and the kids being blind and still able to block the blaster fire) to get out of shit. All Vader needs to see is MC attacking him and possibly beating him, for Vader to Force push him out of the way.

Not the Point, stop trying to side-step the issue...

Vader's Instinctive Reaction to getting attacked was to use his Saber. Not TK


Stop trying to doge the issue! Why didn't you use the insectide against that ant, and instead used your fingers! CLEARLY THE INSECTICIDE IS FAKE!

#75 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 06:32 AM

For the battle between Vader and John, without the armies, it would seem plausible that they would be in close proximity as they're supposed to be in close combat so... potentially a few yards or meters away. -.-

#76 thetrekker

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 01:34 PM

Yeah, literary analysis SUCK. I have to do them everyday. :P And please, don't do it again.

Well, I actually had a closer picture of it but lost that. Please take a closer look at it when you have the time. I see the tip about to impact with Vader's hand. Its hard to see and if you wish, I can highlight it for you.

I'm actually still wondering what you mean by not wanting to fight me. I forgot any other times we've fought before... oh, wait, Pokemon? Meh. -.-

@ Ruinus, I don't think he's ever used that, he seems to mainly focus on the use of his saber, Force Choke, Crush, and telekinesis...

Wait I unadmit my surrender and show this evidence not taken out of context.

"Darth Vader used this to absorb multiple shots from Han Solo's blaster during their confrontation in Cloud City."
Wookiepedia.org under the Examples tab.

Yes I f***ing found it. Hope is not lost!

#77 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 01:50 PM

Wait I unadmit my surrender and show this evidence not taken out of context.

"Darth Vader used this to absorb multiple shots from Han Solo's blaster during their confrontation in Cloud City."
Wookiepedia.org under the Examples tab.

Yes I f***ing found it. Hope is not lost!

Cool, just a question: Are you sure its actually true because anyone, with access to this wikia, can just assume that it was and put it there. I'd like to have the info where it shows Vader actually learning it. -.-

Because I clicked Edit and its allowing me, a non-member, to access it. -.- Not that I edited anything, just checking to see if it was blocked or not. And its not blocked apparently.

#78 Skirmisher

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 02:00 PM

Wait I unadmit my surrender and show this evidence not taken out of context.

"Darth Vader used this to absorb multiple shots from Han Solo's blaster during their confrontation in Cloud City."
Wookiepedia.org under the Examples tab.

Yes I f***ing found it. Hope is not lost!

Are you sure it's actually sourced? The "Source" that it provides at the bottom says watch the film... which I find funny in the light that his Gloves are made to take that kind of attack without needing to absorb.

#79 thetrekker

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 02:03 PM

Cool, just a question: Are you sure its actually true because anyone, with access to this wikia, can just assume that it was and put it there. I'd like to have the info where it shows Vader actually learning it. -.-

Because I clicked Edit and its allowing me, a non-member, to access it. -.- Not that I edited anything, just checking to see if it was blocked or not. And its not blocked apparently.

Just looked it up and according to the novel I, Jedi, Vader absorbed the bolt but it is still debated whether it was absorbed or deflected, either way with the force.

But wait, if that is true, how can any comment on Wookiepedia be considered canon or non, thereby discounting your proof of Vader's hand without proof.

#80 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 02:04 PM

Are you sure it's actually sourced? The "Source" that it provides at the bottom says watch the film... which I find funny in the light that his Gloves are made to take that kind of attack without needing to absorb.

On top of the fact its a mechanical limb Vader would be using to absorb said attacks...

Would that even work?




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