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#41 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 05:32 PM

1) that was Sparing... in a Fight they'd be much faster.

2) Heavy Armour wasn't that cumbersome to Knights. Recent studies actually show they could move just as fast as a person without the extra weight, and in fact Modern Soldiers carry much more weight into Battle.

3) Do you know the speed of that Airsoft Bullet? I don't, but it's substantially slower than 200m/s. Besides, IIRC some bolts for x-bows were 100% made of metal, usually Iron. This gives it the Armour Piercing ability and the Kinetic Energy to render it lethal against armoured targets at up to 200m, whereas the Long Bow struggles to penetrate heavy armour at point blank range.

Besides Cutting an Arrow in half is different than cutting a X-bow bolt in half. For one thing, the Bow you can see being drawn, you can see the person taking aim, and then the release and snap of the string. With the X-bow you can only see the aim being taken, and hear the thwap of the release.

1.) Still gives you some idea, no?

2.) Interesting, but does it have an impact on the use of weaponry? Like the armor being cumbersome and getting in the way a bit and the weight...

3.) Yes, its a bit slower, 400–550 ft/s (120–170 m/s), this is the average speed shot from the rifle type of Airsoft gun, still pretty fast though.

4.) Its bigger than the pellet for one and the narrator said it would be hard to see the pellet and the guy managed to cut it, the arrow is way bigger and you can still see it somewhat even so more than the pellet, it'd be harder at that slightly higher speed but the extra size should help. And don't the whistling of the bolt help detect where it would be as well the thwap?

#42 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 05:40 PM

I would have to say that the knight wins it:

The slashing weapons(katana and naginata) of the samurai are next to useless against the outer plate armor of the knight which can stop the attacks. I dont know where the argument for a stabbing katana came from, but even if it could get through the joints its not a kill dominating weapon(like the twin hooks or spartan shield), and if we are going deadliest warrior then "he can get the kill", doesnt mean that the samurai can shrug off the crossbow, halberd and mace and close in for a precise neck shot.

The yumi isnt getting an eye shot here, long as the knights visor stays down. Joint shots may be possible, but the leather underarmor could definitely slow the attack right there.

The kanabo is the samurais best bet, however using it they lose their precious speed advantage, and possibly be slower on the draw than the halberd .

The knights mace and halberd are the big killers here for him: the mace is gonna tear whatever it hits right off(helmets,heads,etc.), but everyone is downplaying the halberd to my annoyance. That thing is a multi-tool; i tcan hook, stab, and slice. A good trip-up with the hook followed by a stab through the neck or open face with the pike-end and thats all she wrote.

PS:I could send u some good ideas, if u got room in your inbox?

Kay.

The Cross Bow is a bitch to reload and it takes a while to reload, a few seconds, no? The Samurai can least try to dodge it and close in.

Sure, the Knight's weapons are lethal, I'm not downplaying the halberd, I'm only stating this, the Knight is slower than the Samurai and the Samurai is faster and possibly much more trained.

If the Katana can punch through a plated steel armor and have a length sticking through on the other side, it can destroy the chainmail and the cloth would be shredded easily as well as the leather. And there are openings in the armor where the Samurai can slash at and they are pretty accurate.

It depends on the type of helmet, even a few types of visors are wide enough for an arrow to get through.

The Kanabo would be lighter and much more easier to wield than the Halberd.

#43 Skirmisher

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 05:46 PM

1.) Still gives you some idea, no?

2.) Interesting, but does it have an impact on the use of weaponry? Like the armor being cumbersome and getting in the way a bit and the weight...

3.) Yes, its a bit slower, 400–550 ft/s (120–170 m/s), this is the average speed shot from the rifle type of Airsoft gun, still pretty fast though.

4.) Its bigger than the pellet for one and the narrator said it would be hard to see the pellet and the guy managed to cut it, the arrow is way bigger and you can still see it somewhat even so more than the pellet, it'd be harder at that slightly higher speed but the extra size should help. And don't the whistling of the bolt help detect where it would be as well the thwap?

1) Sure, but remember, Sparing = Slower so the participants don't kill each other and can learn from the experience.

2) Well, they were designed to give Maximum protection while retaining Maximum maneuverability.

3) Is that with Plastic paintballs? or with Solid Lead bullets?

4) Well fletched arrows and bolts do not whistle when they fly.

#44 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 05:49 PM

1) Sure, but remember, Sparing = Slower so the participants don't kill each other and can learn from the experience.

2) Well, they were designed to give Maximum protection while retaining Maximum maneuverability.

3) Is that with Plastic paintballs? or with Solid Lead bullets?

4) Well fletched arrows and bolts do not whistle when they fly.

1.) True.

2.) Interesting. I though weighting them down would affect their mobility a bit and as it looks cumbersome, get in the way a bit but I guess not...

3.) Plastic.

4.) Ah, so the only sound would be the thwap. Still could prepare for it a bit, I'd suppose.

#45 Skirmisher

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 05:51 PM

If the Katana can punch through a plated steel armor and have a length sticking through on the other side, it can destroy the chainmail and the cloth would be shredded easily as well as the leather. And there are openings in the armor where the Samurai can slash at and they are pretty accurate.

It has to punch through the Platemail, and then that significantly slowed 1/2 in blade would have to punch through the Chainmail, And the Cloth/Leather underneath... Most openings are usually covered in Chainmail... So a Thrust might be able to break it, but then it still comes back to would the knight let that happen?


It depends on the type of helmet, even a few types of visors are wide enough for an arrow to get through.

True, how big was the visor on the Knight in DW?


The Kanabo would be lighter and much more easier to wield than the Halberd.

No, the Kanabo is a large thick metal covered club, the Halberd is a Polearm. The Polearm should be as fast of faster than the Club. My bet is faster...

#46 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 06:00 PM

It has to punch through the Platemail, and then that significantly slowed 1/2 in blade would have to punch through the Chainmail, And the Cloth/Leather underneath... Most openings are usually covered in Chainmail... So a Thrust might be able to break it, but then it still comes back to would the knight let that happen?



True, how big was the visor on the Knight in DW?



No, the Kanabo is a large thick metal covered club, the Halberd is a Polearm. The Polearm should be as fast of faster than the Club. My bet is faster...

Well, if the Samurai gets in close, the knight would be useless with his Morning Star and Halberd as they're both mid range, no? And his only option would be the longsword and I'm sure the Samurai excels at sword fights. The Knight's only chance would be, other than the sword, the Crossbow and that's if he hasn't fired that off.


Pretty damn narrow...

Posted Image

But the pirate won by flipping the visor up and shot him in the face... and if a pirate could kill the Knight despite being outclassed a bit despite the better weapons, wouldn't the Samurai have a better chance? Also, there is a narrow slot, which seems big enough for the Katana blade to go, though horizontal cuts are a pain, it could be done?

#47 Skirmisher

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 06:05 PM

Well, if the Samurai gets in close, the knight would be useless with his Morning Star and Halberd as they're both mid range, no? And his only option would be the longsword and I'm sure the Samurai excels at sword fights. The Knight's only chance would be, other than the sword, the Crossbow and that's if he hasn't fired that off.

No a Morning Star is a close range to mid range weapon, and like was said before could probably bash the Samurais helmet right off his head.


But the pirate won by flipping the visor up and shot him in the face... and if a pirate could kill the Knight despite being outclassed a bit despite the better weapons, wouldn't the Samurai have a better chance? Also, there is a narrow slot, which seems big enough for the Katana blade to go, though horizontal cuts are a pain, it could be done?

1) Well, the sim was for entertainment and I don't think the Knight even used the Halberd in it...

2) He'd have to make it against an elevated target (head is higher than arms) a target that doesn't want to be hit...

#48 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 06:10 PM

No a Morning Star is a close range to mid range weapon, and like was said before could probably bash the Samurais helmet right off his head.



1) Well, the sim was for entertainment and I don't think the Knight even used the Halberd in it...

2) He'd have to make it against an elevated target (head is higher than arms) a target that doesn't want to be hit...


Close enough. And could the Samurai potential cut the chain attaching the ball and stick?

No, ND7 is using the same weapon load out. He did have it.

If he does it fast enough. maybe. If he stabbed through the opening into the chainmails (Armpits, etc.), could he cripple the knight?

#49 KevinDWolf93

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 06:11 PM

...yep pretty much what Skirmisher said :D. Also no he did not use the halberd in the sim....on that note Yeager, lets say he did get close enough to open his visor...then what? punc him? All the samurais weapons would be useless in terms of grappling at that point. SO that scenario is pretty moot, even taking into account the jujitsu, the fight would probably be over before either men got that close. We would have two hevily armored men rolling around on the ground...funny yes, but not an ideal scenario.

Also, its possible, he could hit joints but the samurai has the same weakness of the joints the knight does, the Knights weapons would be better for attacking joints as well. The odds would be stacked against him. Also no the chain ball would be going way too fast and in constant motion. No way in hell he'd make a clear slash...again if hes that close he is in range of the ball, bad place to be.

#50 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 06:15 PM

...yep pretty much what Skirmisher said :D. Also no he did not use the halberd in the sim....on that note Yeager, lets say he did get close enough to open his visor...then what? punc him? All the samurais weapons would be useless in terms of grappling at that point. SO that scenario is pretty moot, even taking into account the jujitsu, the fight would probably be over before either men got that close. We would have two hevily armored men rolling around on the ground...funny yes, but not an ideal scenario.

Heh, The pirate knocked over the Knight. Jijutustu could knock him over... He could then reverse his grip on the katana and bring it down... but it would be dangerous if he got close. Its all speculation and I honestly believe the Samurai can and will win.

And here.

http://en.wikipedia....irate_vs_Knight

He did use the Halberd.

#51 KevinDWolf93

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 06:23 PM

Heh, The pirate knocked over the Knight. Jijutustu could knock him over... He could then reverse his grip on the katana and bring it down... but it would be dangerous if he got close. Its all speculation and I honestly believe the Samurai can and will win.

And here.

http://en.wikipedia....irate_vs_Knight

He did use the Halberd.


He didnt use the halberd during the simulation battle. Thats what Skirm meant.

Also jujitsu wont mean anything if he has a pike or bolt in his neck. The samurai's stategy(according to your argument) involves getting almost point blank and stabbing his weak point. The knights weapons can kill him before he gets to that point. You can post things thes e links to someone catching an arrow(on that note, a crossbow bolt goes much faster) or stabbing through chainmail, but thats the thing about deadliest warrior. 1000 battles so there are no flukes: That move could get pulled off 30-40 times for all we know, but the odds are that he gets taken out by either:A. the point and click accurate crossbow, B. the multi-tool halberd, C the bone(and armor) crunching mace, or D. the sharp multi-edged sword.

Also, that was the sim which shouldnt be takern seriously. Go ahead and look at the tallies, what got the most kills? It sure as hell wasnt the cutlass or ax. It was the blunderbuss...a samurai doesnt have a blunderbuss, so that argument is invalid...

I think the knight should win, if you havent noticed :D

#52 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 06:28 PM

He didnt use the halberd during the simulation battle. Thats what Skirm meant.

Also jujitsu wont mean anything if he has a pike or bolt in his neck. The samurai's stategy(according to your argument) involves getting almost point blank and stabbing his weak point. The knights weapons can kill him before he gets to that point. You can post things thes e links to someone catching an arrow(on that note, a crossbow bolt goes much faster) or stabbing through chainmail, but thats the thing about deadliest warrior. 1000 battles so there are no flukes: That move could get pulled off 30-40 times for all we know, but the odds are that he gets taken out by either:A. the point and click accurate crossbow, B. the multi-tool halberd, C the bone(and armor) crunching mace, or D. the sharp multi-edged sword.

Also, that was the sim which shouldnt be takern seriously. Go ahead and look at the tallies, what got the most kills? It sure as hell wasnt the cutlass or ax. It was the blunderbuss...a samurai doesnt have a blunderbuss, so that argument is invalid...

I think the knight should win, if you havent noticed :D

He can destroy the pike.

He can destroy the mace (probably) by severing the links.

The longsword couldn't slash steel armor or stab it through it, though it dented it a bit. Samurai uses Steel Armor. its in the same link David provided. Plus Katana is superior.

Also, since we're using the DW Knight.... wouldn't the narrow slit in the Knight's helm make it easier for the Samurai to get out of his view or make it harder for him to be accurate? Lack of peripheral vision.

#53 Skirmisher

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 06:43 PM

He can destroy the pike.

He can destroy the mace (probably) by severing the links.

The longsword couldn't slash steel armor or stab it through it, though it dented it a bit. Samurai uses Steel Armor. its in the same link David provided. Plus Katana is superior.

Also, since we're using the DW Knight.... wouldn't the narrow slit in the Knight's helm make it easier for the Samurai to get out of his view or make it harder for him to be accurate? Lack of peripheral vision.

Halberds usually have armoured necks to prevent the tactic of cutting their heads off.

No the Katana could not cut the links in the Mace and Chain. First, they're Steel not Iron. Second, they would absorb the impact and take no damage. What would happen though would be the Ball part swinging around the sword entangling it and rendering it useless and susceptible to disarming.

Knights were trained to operate effectively even with their vision hampered so. Besides, the Samurai could only hide low to the ground, as the slits go from side to side. If the Samurai was that low then he would be at a disadvantage in the fight.

Edit: Didn't see the part about the longsword...

Usually when fighting other armoured opponents Knights used Dulled Longswords in combat. See they knew that they couldn't really get through the armour, so they opted to just bash their opponents brains out instead.

#54 KevinDWolf93

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 06:45 PM

He can destroy the pike.

He can destroy the mace (probably) by severing the links.

The longsword couldn't slash steel armor or stab it through it, though it dented it a bit. Samurai uses Steel Armor. its in the same link David provided. Plus Katana is superior.

Also, since we're using the DW Knight.... wouldn't the narrow slit in the Knight's helm make it easier for the Samurai to get out of his view or make it harder for him to be accurate? Lack of peripheral vision.


* How exactly? Its a multi-tool that can attack effectivley from near-any angle or cqb range(long stab, mid ax, or close trip, or any combo really). Your naginata cant boast that, and your katana is shorter so reach advantage is there.

*The longsword can definitely stab, at his joints at that. Also it has the advantage of both sides being sharp for parrying

* Theoretically yes, however the face plate is right there up to his eyes, so its not nearly as bad as you think and not nearly bad enough to lose the samurai's location in the middle of a fight after already have engaged them. Also your expecting the samurai to not make his presence known with an arrow attempt(that will get stopped by the armor).

#55 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 07:00 PM

* How exactly? Its a multi-tool that can attack effectivley from near-any angle or cqb range(long stab, mid ax, or close trip, or any combo really). Your naginata cant boast that, and your katana is shorter so reach advantage is there.

*The longsword can definitely stab, at his joints at that. Also it has the advantage of both sides being sharp for parrying

* Theoretically yes, however the face plate is right there up to his eyes, so its not nearly as bad as you think and not nearly bad enough to lose the samurai's location in the middle of a fight after already have engaged them. Also your expecting the samurai to not make his presence known with an arrow attempt(that will get stopped by the armor).

*sighs* What makes you think the Samurai will allow all that to happen? Just think on it, one miss from the halberd vis sidestep, jumping over, or avoiding the kooking attempt, he can destroy it. Possible.

The Katana can do the same to the Knight's armpits.

Well, I thought the visor was big but I was wrong so the arrow's out, obviously. Also, stop assuming that I'm expecting, only suggestions.

Samurais aren't stupid, he could potentially sneak up on him and such. Neither is the Knight stupid.

#56 TheRandomBandit

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 07:07 PM

I still gotta reread the other posts, but when the Samuari hit the helmet of the Viking. That was in the simulation, the simulation is just for us to enjoy. In real life the Viking would be hit in the face with that arrow.

#57 ND7

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 07:07 PM

*Sighs*

I'll do it now...

Scots: Huns:

Claymore Hun Sword
Squarehead Axe Dagger
Ettrick Bow Bows
Javelin Javelin


If you are dissatisfied with the Scot's weaponry, you can choose different ones here,

http://sites.scran.a...in/Content.html

They also provide some information on the weapons.



They have similar weaponry...



Sorry to make you have to do this much work Eth. :D

#58 TheRandomBandit

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 07:08 PM

Omg! So much to read from you all. :D

The Katana was never tested against the Spartan armor. That was his Najanata.

#59 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 07:08 PM

Sorry to make you have to do this much work Eth. :D

No, just Trig... and Regents.

#60 He who fights monsters

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 07:10 PM

I'd say the Samurai, but narrowly. Kanabo vs Morning Star...I'd give the edge to the Kanabo. A huge club can crack the knight open like an egg. The only reason why the Spartan wasn't crackable is because it was very big. The pressure (force divided by area) was not enough to penetrate because the huge force of the Kanabo was negated by the huge area of the shield. The knight won't be as fortunate.




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