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Empire vs Trade Federation vs UNSC vs Covenant Empire


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#41 Skirmisher

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 10:16 PM

Well, at a MINIMUM, they were moving far faster than we've seen Spartans move, including Kelly.

Have you read the Books?


Lies. Let's see how fast they move, shall we? See this, or this. I will NOT believe for a damn second they can even exceed a horse's speed, let alone 105 kph.

Have you read the Books?


Right, Will they be able to escape the "maximum firepower" attack? I mean, they can't escape it.

Oh, you mean the Blasts that do not have Area Of Effect? When you hear Kiloton Level of Energy! you automatically think literally a Kiloton of TNT just went off producing an Extremely large Explosion... Do you see that at any time on Hoth? No, because the Energy is non-explosive, it hit's a point with Extreme Kinetic Energy and Thermal Energy, but besides the Fragments of ground kicked up there would be no Area Of Effect Explosion. So Only if one of these Kiloton level Blasts were to hit within meters of a Spartan would it do any damage to that Spartan.


Mm, well, that's fine and all, but what happens when the Storm Troopers support come in? They have weapons that are almost plasma... oh for *vulgarity*s sake, the Arbiter, or any high ranking Elite, has weapons that can't even kill a UNSC marine in one shot (Ref. Halo Wars), and are capable of matching Master Chief; luckiest Spartan ever.

1) Blasters are Particle Blast (Beam, but odd physics) weapons, which is actually a step above Plasma... BUT Infantry Grade Blasters (even Anti-Infantry) fire EXTREMELY SLOW MOVING BOLTS OF ENERGY. The largest infantry portable shot I clocked only came to 40m/s.

2) Those were Marines... And yes they do die fairly fast when shot with Plasma Rifles as note in the Halo Wars Cinematic a Marine goes down, critically injured from 1 hit. But we're not talking about Marines here, we're talking about SPARTANS...

3) Please keep the conversation Clean Posted Image

What I'm wondering is where Skirmisher gets his "all blasters are 49 m/s" stuff. Blaster speed is really inconsistent in the movies.

Basically it's mostly gut, but backed up by actual Calcs. See I calced the Infantry grade Blasters to be around 40m/s, and based on observation, I noticed that the speeds remained relatively similar in contrast to Size. Sure they're inconsistent, But they do have a logic to them. Hence "The bigger they are the Faster their Bolts travel"

#42 ricrery

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 10:32 PM

Have you read the Books?
Have you read the Books?


Well, no, I tried to though, but that writing style is irritating to read with, so I use bits and pieces I find.

Oh, you mean the Blasts that do not have Area Of Effect? When you hear Kiloton Level of Energy! you automatically think literally a Kiloton of TNT just went off producing an Extremely large Explosion... Do you see that at any time on Hoth? No, because the Energy is non-explosive, it hit's a point with Extreme Kinetic Energy and Thermal Energy, but besides the Fragments of ground kicked up there would be no Area Of Effect Explosion. So Only if one of these Kiloton level Blasts were to hit within meters of a Spartan would it do any damage to that Spartan.


Well, remember http://www.youtube.c...69eAXrU#t=5m18sthis explosion?[/url]. Are you going to tell me, that that had no radius? Oh come now, the mushroom begs to differ.

1) Blasters are Particle Blast (Beam, but odd physics) weapons, which is actually a step above Plasma... BUT Infantry Grade Blasters (even Anti-Infantry) fire EXTREMELY SLOW MOVING BOLTS OF ENERGY. The largest infantry portable shot I clocked only came to 40m/s.


Alright, but what about the output? Han's blast pistol destroyed a large chunk of a wall; a few hundred megawatts.

2) Those were Marines... And yes they do die fairly fast when shot with Plasma Rifles as note in the Halo Wars Cinematic a Marine goes down, critically injured from 1 hit. But we're not talking about Marines here, we're talking about SPARTANS...


But these hits are a threat to Spartans, remember?

3) Please keep the conversation Clean Posted Image


Was that necessary?


Basically it's mostly gut, but backed up by actual Calcs. See I calced the Infantry grade Blasters to be around 40m/s, and based on observation, I noticed that the speeds remained relatively similar in contrast to Size. Sure they're inconsistent, But they do have a logic to them.


If they can vaporize just one kg of water in a single shot, they'd be doing 2.57 megajoules. That is however, if they've ever actually vaporized water.

#43 Skirmisher

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 10:59 PM

Well, remember this explosion?. Are you going to tell me, that that had no radius? Oh come now, the mushroom begs to differ.

What I see is their Blaster/Laser Cannons hitting a Complex designed to Produce and Use Large amounts of Energy to make a Shield that can withstand Bombardment from Several plus Large Warships in orbit explode... Personally I don't think that All of that blast was the AT-AT's and that it probably cooked off the Reactors Fuel or caused an Immediate Energy overload when it crippled it's systems resulting in such a large explosion.

Frankly it would be like hitting a Naval High Explosive Shell with a 9mm and saying that because the Shell detonated that 9mm actually has the Explosive power of a couple Dozen Kilograms of TNT...


Alright, but what about the output? Han's blast pistol destroyed a large chunk of a wall; a few hundred megawatts.

Han's Blaster Pistol is also not a good estimate for all blaster weaponry. It expressly says in anything mentioning it that it is a Highly Customized weapon or something to that effect. Meaning that more than likely he tweaked it for Power, which would mean that it would deal Substantially More power than Regular Standard Issue Weapons.

It would be equivalent to someone today having a .50 Deagle customized to fire 44mm long (.50AE rounds are only 33mm) High Explosive Depleted Uranium Tipped Rounds. And you're trying to say that just because he did some nice damage AUTOMATICALLY ALL WEAPONS somewhat similar to it can deal similar damages.


But these hits are a threat to Spartans, remember?

The 7.62x51mm NATO Round is a Threat to a Marine and can kill one in one hit... it takes 60 of them to down the Shields of a Spartan.

#44 Ruinus

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 11:10 PM

Basically it's mostly gut, but backed up by actual Calcs. See I calced the Infantry grade Blasters to be around 40m/s, and based on observation, I noticed that the speeds remained relatively similar in contrast to Size. Sure they're inconsistent, But they do have a logic to them. Hence "The bigger they are the Faster their Bolts travel"


Yes, if I remember you calced some shot moving near a LAAT gunship and hitting someone in the head. What I don't know is why you still assume that is the basic speed? In the Geonosis battle, for instance, the bolts from infantry weapons are crossing the 500 m distances between the clone and droid forces in seconds, and in this post he calced blaster bolts at 125 m/s.

Han's Blaster Pistol is also not a good estimate for all blaster weaponry. It expressly says in anything mentioning it that it is a Highly Customized weapon or something to that effect. Meaning that more than likely he tweaked it for Power, which would mean that it would deal Substantially More power than Regular Standard Issue Weapons.


DL-44 heavy blaster pistol:
The DL-44 was the weapon of choice of the General and Alliance hero, once-smuggler Han Solo, who removed the barrel-sight to facilitate his fast-draw.

As far as this article is concerned all he did was remove the sights on the barrel. I could go bust out my Visual Dictionary, since I'm pretty certain there is mention of his gun there.

#45 Skirmisher

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 11:18 PM

Yes, if I remember you calced some shot moving near a LAAT gunship and hitting someone in the head. What I don't know is why you still assume that is the basic speed? In the Geonosis battle, for instance, the bolts from infantry weapons are crossing the 500 m distances between the clone and droid forces in seconds, and in this post he calced blaster bolts at 125 m/s.

The problem I have with that Calc is that First we have a Guesstimate of Distance... and then we have yet another Guesstimate of Time.

My Calc I actually ripped the vid and put it through a program to literally dissect it into Timed Segments. Each Frame had a definable time, and it wasn't just a guess of "Oh, well one frame is 1/25 seconds"

My Calc also had a Bolt pass perpendicular to the Camera so that Actual Distance Traveled can be Accurately Measured... whereas your guy had a "Down the Barrel" POV which makes gauging distances extremely hard.

Based on this, what would you agree with?

#46 Ruinus

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 11:28 PM

The problem I have with that Calc is that First we have a Guesstimate of Distance... and then we have yet another Guesstimate of Time.

My Calc I actually ripped the vid and put it through a program to literally dissect it into Timed Segments. Each Frame had a definable time, and it wasn't just a guess of "Oh, well one frame is 1/25 seconds"

My Calc also had a Bolt pass perpendicular to the Camera so that Actual Distance Traveled can be Accurately Measured... whereas your guy had a "Down the Barrel" POV which makes gauging distances extremely hard.

Based on this, what would you agree with?


Where does he guess the time? PAL has a 25 fps, while the NTSC has a 30 fps (either .08 of a second or .06 of a second) The only thing he guess was the distance, and even then, I don't see why 10 meters is unreasonable.

Also your shot isn't exactly perpendicular to the LAAT, nor did it seem to take into account perspective (granted, the LAAT wasn't too far back, so it might be unnecessary).

#47 ricrery

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 11:45 PM

What I see is their Blaster/Laser Cannons hitting a Complex designed to Produce and Use Large amounts of Energy to make a Shield that can withstand Bombardment from Several plus Large Warships in orbit explode... Personally I don't think that All of that blast was the AT-AT's and that it probably cooked off the Reactors Fuel or caused an Immediate Energy overload when it crippled it's systems resulting in such a large explosion.


Actually, I'm not too sure.

Peak: >7,73 × 1026 W (with planetary heat sink)[5]


This converts to 323,423.200 teratons. I would expect the explosion to cause much damage. Of course, I'd believe it would implode then cause a mass extinction event...

Han's Blaster Pistol is also not a good estimate for all blaster weaponry. It expressly says in anything mentioning it that it is a Highly Customized weapon or something to that effect. Meaning that more than likely he tweaked it for Power, which would mean that it would deal Substantially More power than Regular Standard Issue Weapons.


I can understand that. What are the greatest feats common blasters have achieved?

The 7.62x51mm NATO Round is a Threat to a Marine and can kill one in one hit... it takes 60 of them to down the Shields of a Spartan.


I guess so, but what about rocket launchers? What yields do they have?

#48 Skirmisher

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 11:45 PM

DL-44 heavy blaster pistol:
The DL-44 was the weapon of choice of the General and Alliance hero, once-smuggler Han Solo, who removed the barrel-sight to facilitate his fast-draw.

As far as this article is concerned all he did was remove the sights on the barrel. I could go bust out my Visual Dictionary, since I'm pretty certain there is mention of his gun there.

Hmm, when last I checked Wookieepedia had said that it was a Heavily Customized Weapon... Now it makes no mention of it. "Star War, makers of Revisionist History since 1977" jk...

Still though, there is plenty of material that shows his gun WITH the scope. In fact the Blaster From ANH had a scope on it... When he fired all those powerful shots... Besides, I really don't think taking a removable scope off of a pistol would count as a Modification...


Where does he guess the time? PAL has a 25 fps, while the NTSC has a 30 fps (either .08 of a second or .06 of a second) The only thing he guess was the distance, and even then, I don't see why 10 meters is unreasonable.

Also your shot isn't exactly perpendicular to the LAAT, nor did it seem to take into account perspective (granted, the LAAT wasn't too far back, so it might be unnecessary).

I know that frame rate is standard, but sometimes it can vary, that's why I would rather dissect my frames with a clock stamp on them.

As for distance, is 10m reasonable? Or is it just a Guess?

It's alot harder to Guess a correct distance when trying to guess distance to a target rather than distance Across a target...

So I can easily say without Boost that My calc is the better, and more accurate.

#49 Skirmisher

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 11:53 PM

Actually, I'm not too sure. This converts to 323,423.200 teratons. I would expect the explosion to cause much damage. Of course, I'd believe it would implode then cause a mass extinction event...

I doubt that it would convert all of it's energy Directly into a Massive Explosion. But still, even if a mere tiny fraction of it's output power goes into causing a massive explosion then we'd still see a big explosion. Unless of course you think that the Shield Generator Station is made of Solid Matter without any working parts and is only there to get blasted to pieces, but this would be no more than a Set Model, and it's only objective would be to Blow up spectacularly...


I can understand that. What are the greatest feats common blasters have achieved?

High Powered Blaster Long Rifles have supposedly been able to cut a Man in half with Maximum power output. However I would classify this as more of an Anti-Material Weapon rather than Infantry or Anti-Infantry.


I guess so, but what about rocket launchers? What yields do they have?

IDK

#50 ricrery

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 12:00 AM

I doubt that it would convert all of it's energy Directly into a Massive Explosion. But still, even if a mere tiny fraction of it's output power goes into causing a massive explosion then we'd still see a big explosion. Unless of course you think that the Shield Generator Station is made of Solid Matter without any working parts and is only there to get blasted to pieces, but this would be no more than a Set Model, and it's only objective would be to Blow up spectacularly...


Or perhaps that no energy came from the generator, as that would be far too much, therefor that was all the AT-AT's power.

High Powered Blaster Long Rifles have supposedly been able to cut a Man in half with Maximum power output. However I would classify this as more of an Anti-Material Weapon rather than Infantry or Anti-Infantry.


I want the normal ones to calculate.

#51 Skirmisher

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 12:09 AM

Or perhaps that no energy came from the generator, as that would be far too much, therefor that was all the AT-AT's power.

So you're assuming that a large building that generated and processed Extremely Large Amounts of Energy was made of Styrofoam and wasn't generating Any Energy when it got hit?


I want the normal ones to calculate.

Ok, blasted a small hole in some thin metal plating? Shot a guy dead or really close to it in one shot? scorched a small patch of fur on a teddy bear?

#52 ricrery

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 12:48 AM

So you're assuming that a large building that generated and processed Extremely Large Amounts of Energy was made of Styrofoam and wasn't generating Any Energy when it got hit?


It was possible, that it wasn't firing its energy as that would be far too much for them to handle.

Ok, blasted a small hole in some thin metal plating? Shot a guy dead or really close to it in one shot? scorched a small patch of fur on a teddy bear?


*Grabs Invader Taz* Go fetch me some feats!

#53 Skirmisher

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 01:20 AM

It was possible, that it wasn't firing its energy as that would be far too much for them to handle.

What? They were defending against a small Fleet of ISD's, if the Imperials had seen that the Shields were down then they would have obliterated the base from Orbit! So of coarse the Shield was up, which would mean that the Generator was Running, which would mean that Large Amounts of Energy were passing through it at the time it blew up.

Like I said, even if only a very small fraction of energy was cast off in the explosion then that would still produce a very large explosion like the one we saw on screen.


*Grabs Invader Taz* Go fetch me some feats!

Why are you grabbing someone? And aren't there laws about Sexual Harassment? Shame on you for groping some random person that isn't in this debate yet.

#54 ricrery

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 01:26 AM

While Invader Taz does that, I will calculate from here okay?

45,000 x 60 = 2,700,000/540 = 5,000 J = 5 kj

30,000 x 60 = 1,800,000/540 = 3,333 = 3.333 kj

20,000 x 60 = 1,200,000/540 = 2,222 = 2.222 kj.

This would be how much they fire a single shot. I can't find anymore links to these weapons, though. But wow, gigawatts a minute.

#55 ricrery

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 01:29 AM

What? They were defending against a small Fleet of ISD's, if the Imperials had seen that the Shields were down then they would have obliterated the base from Orbit! So of coarse the Shield was up, which would mean that the Generator was Running, which would mean that Large Amounts of Energy were passing through it at the time it blew up.


I know that.

Like I said, even if only a very small fraction of energy was cast off in the explosion then that would still produce a very large explosion like the one we saw on screen.


Okay, I see what you mean by "very small fraction".

Why are you grabbing someone? And aren't there laws about Sexual Harassment? Shame on you for groping some random person that isn't in this debate yet.


I can do whatever I want!

#56 Skirmisher

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 01:38 AM

While Invader Taz does that, I will calculate from here okay?

45,000 x 60 = 2,700,000/540 = 5,000 J = 5 kj

30,000 x 60 = 1,800,000/540 = 3,333 = 3.333 kj

20,000 x 60 = 1,200,000/540 = 2,222 = 2.222 kj.

This would be how much they fire a single shot. I can't find anymore links to these weapons, though. But wow, gigawatts a minute.

What relevance is this to the conversation? Also where did these numbers actually come from? Not the Link because I cannot find any correlation with the numbers presented there and your own.

Also, is that your own quote in your sig or did you take that from somewhere? Because it seems fairly vindictive to Halo in general. And frankly even though I myself am branded a Halo Fan, I have at least earned a rep for Logic and Reason in an Argument, you have not and wear your Bias like a Badge of Honour... It makes me think that even if I were to win this, it would not sway your thoughts.

#57 ricrery

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 01:41 AM

What relevance is this to the conversation?


Well, I was going to give a yield to Covenant weaponry that can harm Spartans who are going to face AT-ATs with Stormtrooper backup.

Also, is that your own quote in your sig or did you take that from somewhere? Because it seems fairly vindictive to Halo in general. And frankly even though I myself am branded a Halo Fan, I have at least earned a rep for Logic and Reason in an Argument, you have not and wear your Bias like a Badge of Honour... It makes me think that even if I were to win this, it would not sway your thoughts.


... I took it from elsewhere. Does it really offend you? I prefer Halo because at least it doesn't have people screaming that kiloton based weaponry can beat Star Wars (Star Trek).

Here's some examples:

I think in the end Trek would win... would be a bloodbath at first as the sheer size and power of the Covie's overwhelm them... but once tactics and superior mobility kick in (as well as adaptation and trechnobabble solutions) I think Trek would plink a hole in the Cov's shields and simply wipe the floor with them.


First off, bullshit! Second, no limits fallaccy is not allowed. Third, UNSC could beat all the powers of Star Trek alone just due to have gigaton level weaponry, whereas low yield kilotons are dangerous to Trek ships.

Now, would you show me where you get that bull**** claim that trek cant generate more than a terawatt or fire more than .024 gigatons. The enterprise can generate 12.75 exawatts, that is 12.75 million terawatts. Have fun with that one loser. Next time you try and insult someone, don't make crap up because I will call you out on it every time.


Wow, I was wrong there, Photon Torpedoes don't even generate a megaton! Even with their power increased by 11%, they only blew up a huge chunk of an asteroid just bigger than them. NEWS: Trek cannot generate a petatwatt on its ships.

Damnation, Trekkers can't debate for shit.

#58 Skirmisher

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 02:00 AM

Well, I was going to give a yield to Covenant weaponry that can harm Spartans who are going to face AT-ATs with Stormtrooper backup.

True, but the thing is that the T-25 DER has an output of approx 31,250 watts based on the math there and averaging everything. Now think how long it takes to Down Shields. IIRC it took about 10+ shots to down Shields in Halo 1, meaning that Spartan could take 312,500+ watts of energy. But that's the old Mk5 armour. In Halo 2+ you had to Duel Wield Plasma Rifles to make them effective again.

As well IIRC an E-11 Blaster Rifle was once calced at around a hundred Kilojoules. Which would mean that it would take a handful of shots to down a Spartans Shields. That's also assuming that the Spartan doesn't just dodge the bolts, which they are fully capable of doing, as infantry bolts travel around 40m/s, whereas Plasma Fire which Spartans have been dodging for years in battle is rated at 126m/s. And usually when they have to dodge it, it's usually raining in on them like a monsoon.


... I took it from elsewhere. Does it really offend you? I prefer Halo because at least it doesn't have people screaming that kiloton based weaponry can beat Star Wars (Star Trek).

Well the whole "Halo must be the biggest, cheapest ripoff of the lot then." thing is kinda offensive seeing as how it doesn't really have any correlation to what the previous part of your sig mentioned.

Also try to get your facts straight.

- Marathon was released on December 21, 1994
- Starcraft was released on March 31, 1998
- Warhammer without the 40k on it means Warhammer Fantasy Battle, and was Not inspired by Starship Troopers, more than likely it was inspired by "The Lord of the Rings"
- AvP has nothing to do with any of this...

#59 ricrery

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 02:04 AM

True, but the thing is that the T-25 DER has an output of approx 31,250 watts based on the math there and averaging everything. Now think how long it takes to Down Shields. IIRC it took about 10+ shots to down Shields in Halo 1, meaning that Spartan could take 312,500+ watts of energy. But that's the old Mk5 armour. In Halo 2+ you had to Duel Wield Plasma Rifles to make them effective again.


So 312.5 kilowatts for an out of date Spartan gear? Well, since I am not so aware of Halo, what does the new "more expensive" suit take? Twenty hits? Thirty? You have to be specific here.

As well IIRC an E-11 Blaster Rifle was once calced at around a hundred Kilojoules. Which would mean that it would take a handful of shots to down a Spartans Shields. That's also assuming that the Spartan doesn't just dodge the bolts, which they are fully capable of doing, as infantry bolts travel around 40m/s, whereas Plasma Fire which Spartans have been dodging for years in battle is rated at 126m/s. And usually when they have to dodge it, it's usually raining in on them like a monsoon.


Where was it calced? I have reason to believe they are in megajoule range because of their one-shot kill abilities.

Well the whole "Halo must be the biggest, cheapest ripoff of the lot then." thing is kinda offensive seeing as how it doesn't really have any correlation to what the previous part of your sig mentioned.


Well, that easily can be chipped off.

#60 Skirmisher

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 02:15 AM

So 312.5 kilowatts for an out of date Spartan gear? Well, since I am not so aware of Halo, what does the new "more expensive" suit take? Twenty hits? Thirty? You have to be specific here.

I would assume no more than double?


Where was it calced? I have reason to believe they are in megajoule range because of their one-shot kill abilities.

... You do realise that Megajoules of energy would Violently Explode people when they hit? This would be equivalent to 40K's Lasrifles that are actually stated to do this... Really I would expect Megajoule range damage for those High Powered Longblasters, but not for small carbines.

Besides, tell me where you got your numbers in the Megajoule range.




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