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Empire vs Trade Federation vs UNSC vs Covenant Empire


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#21 ND7

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 09:23 PM

Say guys will the AT-STs pose the same problem as the AT-ATs?

#22 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 09:32 PM

Say guys will the AT-STs pose the same problem as the AT-ATs?

No, they're actually easier to take down... A Spartan with a plasma sword could literally cleave one in half... They're like Jedi, just short of the Force....

#23 Ruinus

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 10:48 PM

Yup. AT-STs (and frankly, also AT-ATs) are simply troop transports (though the AT-ST probably fails in that regard, seeing as how it can't carry many people). They are, at least in the AT-STs case, simply meant for scouting and basic transportation. The AT-AT is also a troop transport, although a more heavily armored version.

Frankly, I can't wait until SW writers wise up to the fact that a "heavy" land vehicle has never been shown for the Empire that is purely designed for attack (and not, for some stupid reason, a transport) and make something like this:
Posted Image

#24 Skirmisher

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 10:56 PM

[Snipz]

The Covenant are slower, their have no shields, and most of their weapons probably won't even track the targets unless they are right on them or close enough to use their plasma cannons (which probably won't happen, seeing as how the damn GE ships can outrace them).

Air combat goes bad for the Halo forces. (All their air support is somewhat analogous to helipocters rather than jets.)

Yeah... that's why ND7 either needs to scrap Air/Space Fighters and swap in actual Ground Support craft, or give the UNSC/Cov their own Air/Space Fighters... Really the Longsword has two Large Tank Caliber Cannons that fire like modern Aircraft Machineguns... One of them Swivel too, in order to track targets for strafing. As for the Seraph, well their the Cov analogue to the Longsword, so I guess they'd be equal?


The rounds of blaster bolts range from anything of 1 km/s from the Battle of Geonosis, to 30 m/s (from your calc on an old thread). Putting in more energy into the gun seems to be what dictates bolt speed, along with gun type etc etc. Depending on what they are firing at they can score hits. Maybe not reliably against infantry but against vehicles they will.

1,000m/s is just only slightly faster than the rounds UNSC assault rifles fire (840m/s)... The Master Chief was just able to dodge that type of fire from point blank range and they were bullets that are extremely hard to see. This was during the testing of the Mark VI armour IIRC. This would mean that with a Very Bright projectile Spartans could easily dodge them and get into their own optimum range without any casualties from Infantry and anti-infantry blaster fire.


Yeah, only if armies have no concept of combined arms and leave the AT-ATs milling around unattended while the other storm/clonetroopers, tanks air support and AT-STs are sitting about on some other part of the battlefield.

True, but here they're literally facing an Army of Commandos. Depending on what terrain it actually is, it would be highly likely that the Empire wouldn't see them coming until they are within their lines. Then they wouldn't really be able to use massive ordinance or air support for risk of annihilating their own.

The only thing that could stop the Spartans from sneaking in like that would be if it was Empty & Level Flatlands, that have next to zero cover... and even then I would say that the Spartans just might find a way to sneak across it...

#25 Skirmisher

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 10:58 PM

Yup. AT-STs (and frankly, also AT-ATs) are simply troop transports (though the AT-ST probably fails in that regard, seeing as how it can't carry many people). They are, at least in the AT-STs case, simply meant for scouting and basic transportation. The AT-AT is also a troop transport, although a more heavily armored version.

Frankly, I can't wait until SW writers wise up to the fact that a "heavy" land vehicle has never been shown for the Empire that is purely designed for attack (and not, for some stupid reason, a transport) and make something like this:
http://i107.photobuc...y_Radojavor.jpg

Meh, I would think that a Scarab could pwn it... It could crawl up onto it and from there sit with impunity as it burns it's way through the thick armour.

#26 Ruinus

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 01:58 PM

Yeah... that's why ND7 either needs to scrap Air/Space Fighters and swap in actual Ground Support craft, or give the UNSC/Cov their own Air/Space Fighters... Really the Longsword has two Large Tank Caliber Cannons that fire like modern Aircraft Machineguns... One of them Swivel too, in order to track targets for strafing. As for the Seraph, well their the Cov analogue to the Longsword, so I guess they'd be equal?


Meh, it's what's given in the OP. I could say the same about the AT-STs and the A5-RXs in the GE side, one is a scout/troop vehicle, and the other seems to be some sort of long range artillery piece, up against: heavy tanks for the TF, jeeps for the UNSC and jeep-analogues for the Covenant.

Or hell, I could say that the GE and TF would need Dark Troopers and heavy battle droids, and the Covenant would need... Arbiters? to counter the SPARTANS. But we work with what we've got. :P

1,000m/s is just only slightly faster than the rounds UNSC assault rifles fire (840m/s)... The Master Chief was just able to dodge that type of fire from point blank range and they were bullets that are extremely hard to see. This was during the testing of the Mark VI armour IIRC. This would mean that with a Very Bright projectile Spartans could easily dodge them and get into their own optimum range without any casualties from Infantry and anti-infantry blaster fire.


Are you sure he dodged the bullet and simply didn't move out of the line of fire? I remember the scene, it's from Halo: Fall of Reach, but there is a different between tracking a bullet mid-flight and getting out of the way and seeng someone point a gun and moving out of the way.

True, but here they're literally facing an Army of Commandos. Depending on what terrain it actually is, it would be highly likely that the Empire wouldn't see them coming until they are within their lines. Then they wouldn't really be able to use massive ordinance or air support for risk of annihilating their own.

The only thing that could stop the Spartans from sneaking in like that would be if it was Empty & Level Flatlands, that have next to zero cover... and even then I would say that the Spartans just might find a way to sneak across it...


*Mang, I hate the army of commandoes trope. :D

I guess I can't say anything until we know the terrain.

I don't see how they can sneak up on the GE if the terrain is flatlands with no cover though, unless they are all SPARTAN IIIs with PSI armor, or all have cloaking devices (which would show up on IR anyway). Anyways, you don't have to use massive ordinance anyways. Hunters are quite dangerous to SPARTANS (again, Halo: Fall of Reach), and any sort of vehicle can *vulgarity* up a SPARTAN if they aren't equipped to take it out. Depending on what weapons the GE is fielding, they could run into shielded machine gun nests or grenands with a 5 meter vape radius. I mean, it's not like the SPARTANS are invincible even in Halo, Master Chief doesn't walk out of everything fine and dandy, he's supposedly the "luckiest" of them all.

*And by that I mean the idea that if all your soldiers are super soldiers the army is invincible. Doesn't matter if a guy can punch people's heads open if the other side calls in artillery on you.

#27 Ruinus

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 02:09 PM

Meh, I would think that a Scarab could pwn it... It could crawl up onto it and from there sit with impunity as it burns it's way through the thick armour.


Yeah, but like I said, only if no one in the GE notices the giant 19.5 meter tall beetle coming at it. Or if no one decides to help out the AT-AT while it's being attacked.

I mean, if the terrain is such that the Scarab can sneak up on the AT-AT, how did the Scarab even know the AT-AT was there anyways (you presume the Covenant have knowledge of the GE's position without the GE having knowledge of the Covenant position), and if its flat terrain then the AT-AT could probably just blast it from far away, or run away at 60 kmph (dunno the Scarab's top speed).

Hell, the GE/TF ships could just bomb them with impunity.

#28 Skirmisher

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 03:07 PM

if its flat terrain then the AT-AT could probably... run away at 60 kmph

What do they do, Gallop Away? I find it really hard to imagine them even going 30km/h. After all at what could only be assumed to be it's Cruising Speed, Luke managed to Jog along with one (9-10km/h)... If they were to pick up to a "Top Speed" then I wouldn't think that it would be higher than 30km/h. As then a person would actually have to Run to keep up with it, as shown by This Guy when he was playing with a Speed Trap...

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#29 ND7

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 03:41 PM

To help the debate the terrian is all grassy like the place were Jar Jar's race fought the TF.

#30 Ruinus

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 03:57 PM

What do they do, Gallop Away? I find it really hard to imagine them even going 30km/h.


Sure, it must look really odd, but who cares if it looks stupid when it can kill the enemy *vulgarity*ing dead?

After all at what could only be assumed to be it's Cruising Speed, Luke managed to Jog along with one (9-10km/h)...


Or, because it was firing, it can't be affording to go at full speed? Accuracy decreases the faster you move, the movement throws off aim, etc etc. The 60 km/h is probably when it simply has to get somewhere real fast.

If they were to pick up to a "Top Speed" then I wouldn't think that it would be higher than 30km/h. As then a person would actually have to Run to keep up with it, as shown by This Guy when he was playing with a Speed Trap...


Kinda sounds like you don't believe it can go 60 km/h (the stated number) simply because you don't "believe" it could go that fast, or because it will look stupid as it does so.

#31 Skirmisher

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 05:36 PM

Or, because it was firing, it can't be affording to go at full speed? Accuracy decreases the faster you move, the movement throws off aim, etc etc. The 60 km/h is probably when it simply has to get somewhere real fast.

I say Cruising speed because that's generally the Speed at which combat vehicles can move at their fastest while still retaining a high degree of Accuracy. Hell, Modern Tanks have such speeds in the 30+ km/h zone, and Star Wars is supposed to be more advanced, but has Cruising Speeds at only 10km/h for Larger, More Stable vehicles...

So they really MUST be Galloping like a Horse to reach 60km/h speeds...

#32 Ruinus

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 08:59 AM

I say Cruising speed because that's generally the Speed at which combat vehicles can move at their fastest while still retaining a high degree of Accuracy. Hell, Modern Tanks have such speeds in the 30+ km/h zone, and Star Wars is supposed to be more advanced, but has Cruising Speeds at only 10km/h for Larger, More Stable vehicles...

So they really MUST be Galloping like a Horse to reach 60km/h speeds...


Uh, no, Star Wars does not have a cruising speed at "only 10km/h for larger, more stable vehicles" it has (maye) a cruising of 10 km/h for a giant 22 meter tall AT-AT, that tells us absolutely nothing about anything else, specifically, it doesn't tell us anything about their actual tanks (which is what you are comparing them to).

And again, who cares if it looks stupid at 60 km/h? It is stated to be able to do so, so it can.

#33 Skirmisher

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 11:15 AM

Uh, no, Star Wars does not have a cruising speed at "only 10km/h for larger, more stable vehicles" it has (maye) a cruising of 10 km/h for a giant 22 meter tall AT-AT, that tells us absolutely nothing about anything else, specifically, it doesn't tell us anything about their actual tanks (which is what you are comparing them to).

And again, who cares if it looks stupid at 60 km/h? It is stated to be able to do so, so it can.

Which, I think, is the same stance alot of people take.

"A character said it, so it must be true."

I take the, "a character said it, but lets wait until the visuals confirm or deny the claim" stance.

I haven't seen a Galloping AT-AT... and find the Idea completely absurd... so Show me where you have Seen one.

#34 Ruinus

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 11:48 AM

I haven't seen a Galloping AT-AT... and find the Idea completely absurd... so Show me where you have Seen one.


It's stated both in the The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels and Star Wars: Behind the
Magic
. They are technical specifications, they don't require being seen.

"Below the troop body section were two immense Kuat Drive Yards FW62 compact fusion drive systems that, in conjunction with the walker's four giant heavily-reinforced legs, propelled the AT-AT forward at a top speed of sixty kilometers per hour. However, this maximum rate was achievable only on a flat, stable terrain. While their immense size gives the illusion that they are slow, plodding vehicles, Rebel troops reported that "walkers are upon you before you know it".

BTW: the game Star Wars: Empire at War gives an idea of what a faster moving AT-AT would look like. Instead of galloping (which, for some reason, is being assumed as the method of moving), it simply moves exactly like the battle of Hoth AT-ATs, except faster. Again, there may have been many reasons the AT-ATs were not moving at top speed: (unknown layout of Rebel base, not wanting to be up in the entire Rebel defense line, not wanting to be surrounded, unability to fire down if they arrive at the base too fast, stability and fire issues).

As I have said, you seem to not want to accept this figure based on your own personal disbelief/gut feeling over any actual evidence.

#35 Skirmisher

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 12:38 PM

1) Gameplay Mechanics Ruinus?

2) Even in the clips I did see of EaW AT-ATs they moved no faster than maybe 15 or 20 km/h, making claims of 3+ times that speed to be highly suspect.

#36 Ruinus

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 12:51 PM

1) Gameplay Mechanics Ruinus?


"the game Star Wars: Empire at War gives an idea of what a faster moving AT-AT would look like."

The AT-AT could simply, (instead of galloping) be moving its legs faster. It may look very choppy and jerky as it moves far faster, but again, you suddenly came with this assumption that it must be galloping like a horse without simply thinkg of an alternative.

I could have, for instance, simply said "take an AT-AT toy, and move it real fast", or "imagine the AT-AT scenes in the movies, but with the AT-ATs speed up." It's the same thing, simply because the visualization of an AT-AT at 60 km/h looks ridiculous doesn't mean it can't do it.

2) Even in the clips I did see of EaW AT-ATs they moved no faster than maybe 15 or 20 km/h, making claims of 3+ times that speed to be highly suspect.


"propelled the AT-AT forward at a top speed of sixty kilometers per hour. However, this maximum rate was achievable only on a flat, stable terrain. While their immense size gives the illusion that they are slow, plodding vehicles, Rebel troops reported that "walkers are upon you before you know it".

BTW: You just used game mechanics, when I didn't. I didn't say "Star Wars: Empire at War shows AT-ATs moving at 60 km/h" I said it gave an idea of how they may look. Instead of galloping like a horse or something similar, an AT-AT at top speed, on open flat terrain, may look just like any other AT-AT, except that it would move its legs faster (or take slightly longer strides, or both), the game gives a rough idea of what this may look like.

Again, your entire argument is basically: "I don't think a top speed over flat stable terrain of 60 km/h feels right for an AT-AT." Hell, even in universe it's stated that Rebels feel that the AT-AT is a "slow plodding vehicle" and are surprised by its speed.

#37 ricrery

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 06:28 PM

"T-47 airspeeder
650 km/h"

Okay, that comes to 10.833333 km per minute, or .1805555 km a second. An F-22's max speed is 2,000 mph, which translates to 3,218 km/h, and is 53.6448 km per minute, or 0.89408 km a second. A snowspeeder is going at 1/5 the speed of an F-22 at its max. The AT-ATs were capable of *hitting* them. An AT-AT will most certainly be able to hit a Spartan.

#38 Skirmisher

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 09:15 PM

"T-47 airspeeder
650 km/h"

Okay, that comes to 10.833333 km per minute, or .1805555 km a second. An F-22's max speed is 2,000 mph, which translates to 3,218 km/h, and is 53.6448 km per minute, or 0.89408 km a second. A snowspeeder is going at 1/5 the speed of an F-22 at its max. The AT-ATs were capable of *hitting* them. An AT-AT will most certainly be able to hit a Spartan.

1) What does an F-22's speed have to do with any part of your point?

2) You're assuming Maximum Speed when the T-47 was shot down? Are you a complete idiot? Did you really think that the Speeders on Hoth were flying at 650kph during their Strafing runs?

3) John during his test of Halo 1 era Mjolnir Armour was clocked at 105kph, though he tore his Achilles tendon apparently due to the strain of it, checking for anything else that could have caused it so subject to Edits. As well between Halo 1 and Halo 2 the Armour got upgrades to make it faster and stronger.

4) You're trying to compare a "Jet" Fighter that only moves really fast in one direction in a Steady and Controlled path that can be easily tracked... to a Spartan that can move erratically, really fast in any Direction that's needed to escape damage...

5) Star Wars blaster fire does not move that fast. Sure the Stronger the blast the faster it travels, but even on the Bigger warmachines I do not see the blasts moving that fast. Spartans that are fully aware that an AT-AT is firing at them should easily dodge the Blaster Fire before they get into their own weapons optimum firing range.

#39 ricrery

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 09:59 PM

2) You're assuming Maximum Speed when the T-47 was shot down? Are you a complete idiot? Did you really think that the Speeders on Hoth were flying at 650kph during their Strafing runs?


Well, at a MINIMUM, they were moving far faster than we've seen Spartans move, including Kelly.

3) John during his test of Halo 1 era Mjolnir Armour was clocked at 105kph, though he tore his Achilles tendon apparently due to the strain of it, checking for anything else that could have caused it so subject to Edits. As well between Halo 1 and Halo 2 the Armour got upgrades to make it faster and stronger.


Lies. Let's see how fast they move, shall we? See this, or this. I will NOT believe for a damn second they can even exceed a horse's speed, let alone 105 kph.

4) You're trying to compare a "Jet" Fighter that only moves really fast in one direction in a Steady and Controlled path that can be easily tracked... to a Spartan that can move erratically, really fast in any Direction that's needed to escape damage...


Right, Will they be able to escape the "maximum firepower" attack? I mean, they can't escape it.

5) Star Wars blaster fire does not move that fast. Sure the Stronger the blast the faster it travels, but even on the Bigger warmachines I do not see the blasts moving that fast. Spartans that are fully aware that an AT-AT is firing at them should easily dodge the Blaster Fire before they get into their own weapons optimum firing range.


Mm, well, that's fine and all, but what happens when the Storm Troopers support come in? They have weapons that are almost plasma... oh for *vulgarity*s sake, the Arbiter, or any high ranking Elite, has weapons that can't even kill a UNSC marine in one shot (Ref. Halo Wars), and are capable of matching Master Chief; luckiest Spartan ever.

#40 Ruinus

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 10:16 PM

What I'm wondering is where Skirmisher gets his "all blasters are 49 m/s" stuff. Blaster speed is really inconsistent in the movies.




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