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A Petition for the Admins


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#1 chaos-with-honor

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 10:48 PM

At Issue: The addition of the band GWAR into the Pop Culture DB.

Reason for denial: Don't think GWAR has the same sort of "pop culture-ness" the way a band like KISS does. Direct cut and paste there.

My counter arguement:

Any band that sticks around for over twenty years, is still performing live shows with new music, has produced their own comics and movies, as well as having cameos in several movies not produced by themselves, been on television shows, had attendance to one of their concerts be the goal of a video game, and has been in costume on multiple day-time talk shows is amply suitable for admission to the Pop Culture DB. Especially when the characters are as interesting and entertaining as those created by Dave Brockie and co.

Doesn't the fact that someone geeky enough to think that fighting superheroes is cool still had a strong enough conection to the band to want them included in one of their favorite hobbies put a big "Pop Culture" stamp on them all by itself?

The links I set for the band were good.
The band has nearly as large an entry on Wikipedia as Kiss, the band cited by the reviewing admin.
The picture I set for the band was good.
For all the reasons a character might be rejected, isn't an admin's personal disdain for a character an exceptionally poor one? Even to say they were rejected because of the content of their shows/music would have been almost valid - although anywhere the phrasing "*insensitivity*" is as rampant as it is here would cause me to argue against that reason also. Come on people, Deathklok is in the PC DB, and they're not even a real band!

I want this decision overturned, as I have several ideas about how to use them here. I would like to hear what the community here has to say about this.

#2 Landon

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 11:05 PM

I denied this character. GWAR simply isn't as well known as KISS, and based on the standards we were given for such characters (basically, they need to have significant "pop culture" recognition), I did not feel that GWAR met those standards. This is the same reason why Hulk Hogan was allowed in the database, but Andre the Giant was denied. Both are wrestlers, but one is significantly more "recognized" and therefore the sort of character desired in the CBUB database.

If another admin feels differently, they can post their feelings here. If that's the case, feel free to resubmit the character and that admin can accept the character.

#3 darthsketch

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 12:16 AM

I denied this character. GWAR simply isn't as well known as KISS, and based on the standards we were given for such characters (basically, they need to have significant "pop culture" recognition), I did not feel that GWAR met those standards. This is the same reason why Hulk Hogan was allowed in the database, but Andre the Giant was denied. Both are wrestlers, but one is significantly more "recognized" and therefore the sort of character desired in the CBUB database.

If another admin feels differently, they can post their feelings here. If that's the case, feel free to resubmit the character and that admin can accept the character.



With the utmost respect for the admins (especially you Landon)...

That's a total bull reason for not accepting GWAR.


I denied this character. GWAR simply isn't as well known as KISS

Since when is reputation a qualification for admission in the DB? There are characters in the DB that, not only, have never been used...EVER...but also have names that most people can't even pronounce.


they need to have significant "pop culture" recognition

Like CWH said, GWAR have made several television appearances and even comics to their name. Hell...even I know about GWAR and I don't even listen to their music.


Andre the Giant was denied

:)

Okay...wow...I honestly just lost a massive amount of faith in the objective reasoning skills of this sites admins. Sorry, but...

How can you honestly not allow a legend like Andre into the database while Matt Foley is permitted to be available for matches!? Anyone worth their salt would be able to identify Andre in a photolineup. I guarantee you those same people would not know the name of a seminal Chris Farley character without the aid of wikipedia. FAIL, guys. EPIC FAIL :lol:

#4 Austo191

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 12:29 AM

Matt Foley

Don't you mean Mick Foley or Matt Hardy?

#5 Skirmisher

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 01:17 AM

With the utmost respect for the admins (especially you Landon)...

That's a total bullsh*t reason for not accepting GWAR.


I denied this character. GWAR simply isn't as well known as KISS

Since when is reputation a qualification for admission in the DB? There are characters in the DB that, not only, have never been used...EVER...but also have names that most people can't even pronounce.


they need to have significant "pop culture" recognition

Like CWH said, GWAR have made several television appearances and even comics to their name. Hell...even I know about GWAR and I don't even listen to their music.


Andre the Giant was denied

:)

Okay...wow...I honestly just lost a massive amount of faith in the objective reasoning skills of this sites admins. Sorry, but...

How can you honestly not allow a legend like Andre into the database while Matt Foley is permitted to be available for matches!? Anyone worth their salt would be able to identify Andre in a photolineup. I guarantee you those same people would not know the name of a seminal Chris Farley character without the aid of wikipedia. FAIL, guys. EPIC F***ING FAIL :lol:

I refer you to my Petition http://207.150.196.1...o...

The Mongolian Horde, they weren't let in because "Doesn't seem Pop Culture to [The Reviewer]."

I proved my case with four valid links to why I thought the Mongolian Horde should be let in. Hell, there's even a Precedence set by the Vikings... They have the 13th warrior and Mongols have... well the movie "Mongol", etc.

#6 Landon

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 07:05 AM

http://207.150.196.1...p?showtopic=138

This was the basis of my decision. Like I said, if another admin feels differently, they can say so and whoever wants to resubmit the character can do so. Based on these guideles, and based on what I know of GWAR, I didn't feel they were up to snuff. Simple as that.

And I have no idea who Matt Foley is or whoever it is your're talking about, so he probably shouldn't be in the database either. I'm assuming he's a wrestler, and I lost interest in that stuff when I was, like, 12 or something. That was awhile back. Heehee...

But yeah, I don't take this stuff too seriously and neither should y'all. If y'all disagree, just say it. You won't be hurting my feelings or the feeling of other admins. No need to get angry or whatever over a character not getting in the database. Just say why you feel a character should be in the database and we'll figure it out from there.

#7 darthsketch

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 08:59 AM

Don't you mean Mick Foley or Matt Hardy?



Whoever the guy is who...

"lives in a van down by the river"

I honestly don't remember the correct name...which kinda says a LOT :lol:

#8 darthsketch

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 09:16 AM

I refer you to my Petition http://207.150.196.1...o...

The Mongolian Horde, they weren't let in because "Doesn't seem Pop Culture to [The Reviewer]."

I proved my case with four valid links to why I thought the Mongolian Horde should be let in. Hell, there's even a Precedence set by the Vikings... They have the 13th warrior and Mongols have... well the movie "Mongol", etc.



REALLY!?

Ok...that's just inexcusable. Seriously...we have SAMURAI, NINJAS, COWBOYS, PERSIANS, SPARTANS and VIKINGS in the DB already....what could possibly be the problem with adding the MONGOLS!? They were the most successful conquerors of ALL TIME (pretty much ran Asia). They also have at least 3 movies to their name (Mongol, Mulan, The Conquerors, etc.). This should be rectified immediately along with the MAFIA submission someone else attempted to put through.

#9 chakos

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 11:20 AM

REALLY!?

Ok...that's just inexcusable. Seriously...we have SAMURAI, NINJAS, COWBOYS, PERSIANS, SPARTANS and VIKINGS in the DB already....what could possibly be the problem with adding the MONGOLS!? They were the most successful conquerors of ALL TIME (pretty much ran Asia). They also have at least 3 movies to their name (Mongol, Mulan, The Conquerors, etc.). This should be rectified immediately along with the MAFIA submission someone else attempted to put through.



As I've said many times, just because character A is in the DB does not mean character AB will make it in.

And as Landon said, deep breath.

Here's the way I look at these characters (mostly, all the historical stuff people want to put in 'pop culture'). The CBUB deals mainly with fictional characters. The CBUB has many admins with differing standards. When I look in the pop culture review bin (always has 70+ characters in it) I see characters and think "Hmmmm, doesn't seem pop culture to me. Links are ok, but I'm not sure its acceptable. Therefore, I will leave it for someone else to deal with." Repeat for three or four different admins over the course of a week or ten days. Then someone like myself or Landon goes back in and says, "Ok, I've looked at this character already. Its been a week or more. I know at least 3 or 4 other reviewers have looked at it and not accepted it. And *I* don't want to accept it. I can surmise that multiple admins agree with me that it is not acceptable and/or pop culture. Therefore, I will deny it."

And we're gonna continue to be somewhat sticklers about what goes in there. And players are gonna think denials are unfair and complain (but thank god its not the old FPL, where people would pitch much bigger fits when their creative writing got denied. note for posterity: Landon has denied FPL characters of mine). And its going to stay this way unless and until we hear different from bigger fish.

#10 Diskyr

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 12:15 PM

Now it seems the Admins are trying to make fun of us

#11 Diskyr

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 12:15 PM

As I've said many times, just because character A is in the DB does not mean character AB will make it in.

And as Landon said, deep breath.

Here's the way I look at these characters (mostly, all the historical stuff people want to put in 'pop culture'). The CBUB deals mainly with fictional characters. The CBUB has many admins with differing standards. When I look in the pop culture review bin (always has 70+ characters in it) I see characters and think "Hmmmm, doesn't seem pop culture to me. Links are ok, but I'm not sure its acceptable. Therefore, I will leave it for someone else to deal with." Repeat for three or four different admins over the course of a week or ten days. Then someone like myself or Landon goes back in and says, "Ok, I've looked at this character already. Its been a week or more. I know at least 3 or 4 other reviewers have looked at it and not accepted it. And *I* don't want to accept it. I can surmise that multiple admins agree with me that it is not acceptable and/or pop culture. Therefore, I will deny it."

And we're gonna continue to be somewhat sticklers about what goes in there. And players are gonna think denials are unfair and complain (but thank god its not the old FPL, where people would pitch much bigger fits when their creative writing got denied. note for posterity: Landon has denied FPL characters of mine). And its going to stay this way unless and until we hear different from bigger fish.


Alright. * Cracks Knuckles * So if I get Mr. Serge in here then you do have to obey him eh?

#12 Diskyr

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 12:17 PM

As I've said many times, just because character A is in the DB does not mean character AB will make it in.

And as Landon said, deep breath.

Here's the way I look at these characters (mostly, all the historical stuff people want to put in 'pop culture'). The CBUB deals mainly with fictional characters. The CBUB has many admins with differing standards. When I look in the pop culture review bin (always has 70+ characters in it) I see characters and think "Hmmmm, doesn't seem pop culture to me. Links are ok, but I'm not sure its acceptable. Therefore, I will leave it for someone else to deal with." Repeat for three or four different admins over the course of a week or ten days. Then someone like myself or Landon goes back in and says, "Ok, I've looked at this character already. Its been a week or more. I know at least 3 or 4 other reviewers have looked at it and not accepted it. And *I* don't want to accept it. I can surmise that multiple admins agree with me that it is not acceptable and/or pop culture. Therefore, I will deny it."

And we're gonna continue to be somewhat sticklers about what goes in there. And players are gonna think denials are unfair and complain (but thank god its not the old FPL, where people would pitch much bigger fits when their creative writing got denied. note for posterity: Landon has denied FPL characters of mine). And its going to stay this way unless and until we hear different from bigger fish.


Okay, so the opinions and suggestions and comments of the entirety ( the Community ) don't matter to you admins? Only Moderators and other Admins have a say?

Thats complete bull. Getting a hearing from the community are among the reasons of making a site better.
Heck, go look at Comic Vine sometime.

#13 Skirmisher

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 04:00 PM

we have SAMURAI, NINJAS, COWBOYS, PERSIANS, SPARTANS and VIKINGS



Well, I can see Samurai being let in for the fact that they are very much pop culture now, with tons of Movies, video games and anime about them.

Ninjas because they are the lovable mooks of most martial arts movies. And their recent animosity with the Pirates very much makes them Pop Culture.

Cowboys and Indians because, well who hasn't heard of that rivalry?

Persians and Spartans got in mostly thanks to 300...

But Vikings... well, they are just the Vikings, the real life Historical Figures that raided Europe's coasts for hundreds of years in the dark ages...

#14 Landon

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 04:34 PM

Accepting characters into the database is, was, and always will be a subjective matter. People are going to be disappointed when someone they submit is denied.

If you have a character denied and feel it should be accepted, start a thread on the boards. Maybe we can set up a sub-forum for such posts.

The admin are not infallible. We make mistakes. We might not be familiar enough with something to make the "best" decision. No one's claiming to be perfect. We'll listen to what y'all have to say (so long as its stated in a reasonable manner), but just because we listen doesn't mean we'll automatically go with what's said. People won't be ignored, but just because a few people speak up doesn't mean something will be changed. The truth of the matter falls somewhere in between.

At the same time, we DO have reasons for acting in the way we do. THIS THREAD is the basis of our decisions. Its intentionally worded vaguely because the subject matter at hand is innately subjective. What constitutes "pop culture" cannot and will not be specifically defined for these purposes beyond what is written in the linked thread. Therefore, what constitutes "pop culture" is up to the admin in question.

Also, we aren't out to get anyone. We have no agenda. We're not "making fun" of you or anything like that. Anyone that feels that way needs to get over those feelings quick.

And finally, this isn't a serious matter, so please stop making this into one. Getting angry about a character being denied isn't going to help prove your point. I'm sure people will ignore this request, though, since they ignored my first request to take it easy.

#15 Skirmisher

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 04:47 PM

Then would it be more agreeable to the reviewers if I presented the Mongols from the point of view of their recent film?

300 allowed both the Spartans and Lionidas into the DB. Would you allow the Mongols from "Mongol" as well as Genghis Khan into the Database?

#16 treacherous

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 05:28 PM

I know GWAR. I know André the Giant. I know Mick Foley. I know the Mongol's (I've seen Mongol). We all know Genghis Khan.

GWAR gets accepted. There are so many characters that got accepted in the old CBUB that never were used. GWAR will be one of these. They are underground (cult) at best. They would die in the database.

Andre the Giant is mainstream. Very much so. He'd get decent action.

Mongols are history. They are/should be known to anyone with history education. They would get average action.

Genghis Khan is on par with Shaka Zulu. Conquered Asia. Shaka conquered Africa. Very mainstream. Plenty of usage.

I think all of them could get accepted sans GWAR. They would be a waste. No offense.

#17 Diskyr

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 10:11 PM

I know GWAR. I know André the Giant. I know Mick Foley. I know the Mongol's (I've seen Mongol). We all know Genghis Khan.

GWAR gets accepted. There are so many characters that got accepted in the old CBUB that never were used. GWAR will be one of these. They are underground (cult) at best. They would die in the database.

Andre the Giant is mainstream. Very much so. He'd get decent action.

Mongols are history. They are/should be known to anyone with history education. They would get average action.

Genghis Khan is on par with Shaka Zulu. Conquered Asia. Shaka conquered Africa. Very mainstream. Plenty of usage.

I think all of them could get accepted sans GWAR. They would be a waste. No offense.


GWAR would be so badass. People are going to use them eventually ( GWAR vs KISS )

#18 treacherous

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 10:23 PM

( GWAR vs KISS )


The end.

#19 Mullon

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 11:13 PM

I remember the old rules being that no bands or wrestlers were let in, no exceptions. Not that that stopped them from getting in.

I tried submitting Gorillaz, because I thought maybe a "fictional" band would fit in, but it was rejected. But now it seems liek I jut need to keep re-submitting them until I get a mod that will let them through. Good to know.

#20 Marvel Man

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 02:44 AM

Okay, so the opinions and suggestions and comments of the entirety ( the Community ) don't matter to you admins? Only Moderators and other Admins have a say?

Thats complete bull. Getting a hearing from the community are among the reasons of making a site better.
Heck, go look at Comic Vine sometime.

If the CBUB becomes anything like Comic-Vine, then what would be the point. Would it be worth it?

Besides, you guys are taking this to the extreme. Pop Culture means (or I think it means) "Household name".

That's why KISS is in, why Ninjas are, why Michael Jackson, etc.

These are people anyone knows (or should, if they know any pop culture).

Well, that's all I have to say on that. Respect the Admins & whatnot....




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