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#81 Skirmisher

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 02:02 AM

By the way, can I have a link to Star Wars teleportation? I know force users can teleport, but doesn't the Star Wars galaxy have teleporters too?

Kwa had Infinity Gates. But they all apperently died out. There are several mentions of Teleportation in Wookieepeida. But most are in reference to Arcane places/artifacts, and are moot on the basis that they may not actually be tech, or even replicatable with tech.

#82 Ruinus

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 02:48 AM

Meaning that, Yes this is the Imperial Main Computer for Coruscant.


Except that there is no such thing as a main computer for Coruscant. Nowhere on the wiki can I find a reference to such a thing. It's odd to jump from "main computer" of whatever system they are hacking into to "main computer for the entire planet".

BTW: The memory cores are changed every night, not every hour like the codes.

And that yes you have effectively tried to compare Data, an Android, to a Planet Wide Super Computer...


I-Five:
"I have a SyntheTech AA-One nanoprocessor, operating at seven petahertz, with a five-exabyte capacity."

Data:
"I have an ultimate storage capacity of eight hundred quadrillion bits. My total linear computational speed has been rated at sixty trillion operations per second."

The protocol droid has an order of magnitude on Data's storage capabilities.

Unless I terribly *vulgarity*ed up my math, Data's 8E+17 bits = .10 exobytes.

"[The Navi Computer] was a device that made the careful calculations necessary to navigate through hyperspace. Navicomputers would calculate data like the exact destination, the quickest and safest route to it, and the number of hyperspace jumps necessary."

They only do three things. Destination, Route, Time...

That's as easy as analyzing a set of coordinates, finding what the Weather Network says is the safest route between point A and B, and how long it would take...


Except that the Weather Network doesn't do any calculations at all, the Navicomputer does.. Where in this article does it say anything about the Space Ministry doing any of the requried calculations? It doesn't. The Space Ministry simply had the "recent astrogation data and laws and regulations" which was "downloaded to starships' navicomputers as a standard part of docking procedures at many spaceports." The Navicomputer, then, is working on old information that was uploaded at the last dock, and then has to calculate real time movement of the galaxy to plot the course., the Navicomputer is what determines what the safest route through all of those thousands of lightyears is.

It's also quite odd that you think finding your way from point A to point B, when point A and B can be seperated by thousands of light years is "easy".

#83 Zreth

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 03:03 AM

If you still adding to the sides can you add the Wraith, Block and Nanite replicators to the Xenos, and can you add the Ori to the humans.

#84 ricrery

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 03:22 AM

For Weyland, we can add War of the Worlds Martians?

#85 Skirmisher

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 03:36 AM

Except that there is no such thing as a main computer for Coruscant. Nowhere on the wiki can I find a reference to such a thing. It's odd to jump from "main computer" of whatever system they are hacking into to "main computer for the entire planet".

BTW: The memory cores are changed every night, not every hour like the codes.

Yes, yes, small detail. Except they are still talking about "The Main Imperial Computer" for "The Central Computer Complex" for the planet, in order to affect the Planetary Shield Generators. As well there is the statement about how Black Sun's slicers haven't been able to insert any code into the programs that Control the Planet...

All of this is back on page 234 Wedges Gamble.

When you started quoting the book, I though you had a copy in front of you... like me.


I-Five:
"I have a SyntheTech AA-One nanoprocessor, operating at seven petahertz, with a five-exabyte capacity."

Data:
"I have an ultimate storage capacity of eight hundred quadrillion bits. My total linear computational speed has been rated at sixty trillion operations per second."

The protocol droid has an order of magnitude on Data's storage capabilities.

Unless I terribly *vulgarity*ed up my math, Data's 8E+17 bits = .10 exobytes.

IIRC I-5, or I-5YQ is a 5YQ-series protocol droid, which was described as a "short-lived offshoot of the company's successful 3PO-series."

"The use of shared components led to a lawsuit... forcing the company to retire the line."

He was also heavily modified, but nowhere does it state that his "brain" was even touched.

C-3PO units had the SyntheTech AA-1 VerboBrain. I-5YQ units have the SyntheTech AA-One nanoprocessor.

It seems that the Verbobrain is a nanoprocessor, and that the AA-1 is and AA-One.

Which means that, such a "wise-cracking" droid could have easily exaggerated his mental abilities, in order to cow the person he was talking to. Big numbers thrown in peoples faces, in a flippant or sardonic way = Wise Crack. As well, these Super Speeds, have been disproven by C-3POs lack of such Mental Abilities (Aside from the languages) in that it took Him a few seconds between seeing a Stormtrooper and trying to tell the others. Hell, if he were that fast, he would have not said a word and just backed out of that situation as fast as he could.


Except that the Weather Network doesn't do any calculations at all, the Navicomputer does.. Where in this article does it say anything about the Space Ministry doing any of the requried calculations? It doesn't. The Space Ministry simply had the "recent astrogation data and laws and regulations" which was "downloaded to starships' navicomputers as a standard part of docking procedures at many spaceports." The Navicomputer, then, is working on old information that was uploaded at the last dock, and then has to calculate real time movement of the galaxy to plot the course., the Navicomputer is what determines what the safest route through all of those thousands of lightyears is.

It's also quite odd that you think finding your way from point A to point B, when point A and B can be seperated by thousands of light years is "easy".



"[Imperial Space Ministry] was a bureaucracy responsible for distributing information on hyperspace travel, including both recent astrogation data and laws and regulations.


da·ta [dey-tuh, dat-uh, dah-tuh]
–noun
1. a pl. of datum.

2. (used with a plural verb) individual facts, statistics, or items of information: These data represent the results of our analyses. Data are entered by terminal for immediate processing by the computer.

3. (used with a singular verb) a body of facts; information: Additional data is available from the president of the firm.


Check definition #2. Data represents the results of analysis. Data is then distributed to Navi Computers and Astromech Droids for use in Starships.

Also, since you have seemed to back out of Astromechs and instead try to use Navi Computers, it seems that you are once again trying to compare the Processing capacity of A Whole Ship to an Android... Well, not as bad as a whole planets computer.

#86 MarvelFan15

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 03:58 AM

For Weyland, we can add War of the Worlds Martians?


Thank you, Ricrery for getting us back on track!

#87 ricrery

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 05:37 AM

Where are the Martians to counter Weyland?

#88 Opalord

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 10:52 AM

So, how do you guys think the first large scale ground engagement would go if it happened before the two sides got a chance to morph tech together?

#89 Ruinus

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 04:10 PM

Yes, yes, small detail. Except they are still talking about "The Main Imperial Computer" for "The Central Computer Complex" for the planet, in order to affect the Planetary Shield Generators. As well there is the statement about how Black Sun's slicers haven't been able to insert any code into the programs that Control the Planet...


Then why does Wookieepedia make no such mention of a main controlling computer for any planet, in SW, anywhere?

Have you ever even see pictures of memory cores?

IIRC I-5, or I-5YQ is a 5YQ-series protocol droid, which was described as a "short-lived offshoot of the company's successful 3PO-series."

"The use of shared components led to a lawsuit... forcing the company to retire the line."

He was also heavily modified, but nowhere does it state that his "brain" was even touched.


His modifications were some armaments and his creativity buffers being turned off.

As well, these Super Speeds, have been disproven by C-3POs lack of such Mental Abilities (Aside from the languages) in that it took Him a few seconds between seeing a Stormtrooper and trying to tell the others. Hell, if he were that fast, he would have not said a word and just backed out of that situation as fast as he could.


The exact same thing could be said for Data. He doesn't act at super speeds, he doesn't see the world in slow mo and he makes basic math errors several times.

BTW: this is their data storage capacities, not their ability to act on that data. Even so, for a droid to access its 5 exabyte storage at even human speeds is ridiculous. People can't even access their own brains at such speeds, they can't remember things off the top of their heads.

BTW: positronic brain: Oh shit. Data is a special droid, unable to be reproduced. So even then the Star Trek is behind, they have one good droid (the other Soong types were failures or, in Lore's case, evil). SO yeah, it's sad. Data is one droid in all of Starfleet, while peasants in the GFFA can build droids that are equal to him.

Also, it's odd that you continue to attempt to handwave away his exact specifications of his own computer as "exaggeration". What's more believable, that he could say "I'm a droid, far smarter than a human" or that he lists his specific brain model, followed by his specific running specs?

Hey, you know what? Since Data screws up basic science on a few occasions, then he has human intelligence too.

"[Imperial Space Ministry] was a bureaucracy responsible for distributing information on hyperspace travel, including both recent astrogation data and laws and regulations.


It holds the data, the article specifically states that the navigational computers calculate the trip themselves.

"Travelin' through hyperspace ain't like dustin' crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova, and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?" -Han Solo, to Luke Skywalker

Navicomputer:
"A navigation computer, also known as an astrogation computer, navicomputer, navicomp, or nav computer, was a device that made the careful calculations necessary to navigate through hyperspace"

"Navicomputers would calculate data like the exact destination, the quickest and safest route to it, and the number of hyperspace jumps necessary"

Nowhere, at all does it say that the Space Ministry did any of these calculations themselves and feed them to computers. All evidence in Star Wars points to the computers doing the work themselves.

Also, since you have seemed to back out of Astromechs and instead try to use Navi Computers, it seems that you are once again trying to compare the Processing capacity of A Whole Ship to an Android... Well, not as bad as a whole planets computer.


Because you first tried to equate astrogation buffers to actual navicomputer, and attempt to handwave away the I-Fives superior data storage with "Oh they don't move fast so there" (which again, can also be said of Data), and because you are attempting to hold Data as a case that proves ST is above SW in computational terms, all the while conveniently ignoring that Data is a unique droid, one out of several failures, while the SW galaxy is littered with droids on every planet, and has been for millenia.

#90 MarvelFan15

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 04:56 PM

Where are the Martians to counter Weyland?


I went to bed directly after posting that.

Adding now...

#91 Skirmisher

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 07:44 PM

@ Ruinus

Will respond to your arguments later, Currently it is starting to Derail from the Derailment that it originally was... so if you really want to further that particular argument I will oblige when I can, but for now why not "agree to disagree" so that we can move the discussion forward.

Why not give a look over that list I made up of each universes Resources (I made it mostly for tech and people, as we already know most of the raw materials these universes can draw upon) and fill in what I've missed.


@ MarvelFan15

I think we should set a cap of how many factions should be "allowed" in per side. Too many and it starts to look crowded, as well it would become a logistical nightmare when/if we try to hammer a story into it. As we'd need to fully understand each factions positions, motives, and sympathies... as well as possible fusion tech that they could come up with.

#92 Ruinus

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 10:02 PM

Why not give a look over that list I made up of each universes Resources (I made it mostly for tech and people, as we already know most of the raw materials these universes can draw upon) and fill in what I've missed.


Sure.

*Looks over*

Galactic Empire
Pretty much everything the Republic has.
Quantum-Crystalline Armour
Resonance Torpedoes
Super Lasers
Gravity Well Projectors
World Devastators
Darth Vader
Emperor Palpatine
The Emperor's Hand

I'll add the:
Galaxy Gun: A giant spaceborne cannon that fires planet destroying missiles through hyperspace.

Dark Trooper: Mass produced stromtrooper powered armor. Not quite SPARTANS or Space Marines, but it won't matter when they are being deployed like regular infantry.

Thinking about it a bit, if the Terran Federation is refering to the one from Starship Troopers, (which can provide the NOVA bomb, the one that Halo bases it's NOVA bomb from, which is actually able to crack open planets), then the TF can embarrass all the other factions by showing them what a real military does when it applies it's insane technology to common footsoldiers.

Sure, SW/WH40K/Halo toss around greater energies, can move faster and have more of everything. But the Terran Federation would look at these guys and go "Hey, how come you don't apply this to your soldiers? Sure, Dark Trooper/Space Marine/SPARTAN is all fine and good, but our footsoldiers are all powered armor nuke packing badasses who can kill you with sticks if they needed to.

#93 ricrery

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 10:54 PM

Sure, SW/WH40K/Halo toss around greater energies, can move faster and have more of everything. But the Terran Federation would look at these guys and go "Hey, how come you don't apply this to your soldiers? Sure, Dark Trooper/Space Marine/SPARTAN is all fine and good, but our footsoldiers are all powered armor nuke packing badasses who can kill you with sticks if they needed to.


"Good thing we have (mind you not footsoldiers) vehicles that shot kilotons on full power and can take megatons (AT-AT), and our friend has giant mechs that do megatons to gigatons per shot, and they can shoot twice in an a second, did I mention some of them take gigatons with little damage (Imperator)? Yeah, keep your troopers, we'll just piss over them regardless."

Is that what will happen?

#94 Zreth

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 11:33 PM

Just wait so can my Stargate guys get added?

#95 Ruinus

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 12:04 AM

"Good thing we have (mind you not footsoldiers) vehicles that shot kilotons on full power and can take megatons (AT-AT), and our friend has giant mechs that do megatons to gigatons per shot, and they can shoot twice in an a second, did I mention some of them take gigatons with little damage (Imperator)? Yeah, keep your troopers, we'll just piss over them regardless."

Is that what will happen?


No, because I was highlighting the fact that the Terran Federation would show them what they could be doing with their SOLDIERS, not their vehicles. Also these vehicles would suddenly be quite tame in comparison to your soldiers.

Also, I was pointing out that the MI would show the bigger powers in this scenario that they should apply their tech consistently. If you have the tech to make men in super durable powered armor that allows them to run 60 mph and fly at insane heights and carry insane firepower, then you should have the tech to make your tanks in super durable armor that allows them to outrun the puny powered armor man and also fly at insane heights.

Or to use an example, think of the Iron Man movie. Tony Stark is badass because he has that awesome suit with crazy armor and the crazy powersource. And that is all in a reactor and armor the size of a man.

Get the same armor alloys and slap them on a tank. Now the tank is as durable as he is.
Get the same AI interface and install it on the tank. Now the tanker has the same help as he does.
Get the same power source and put it in the tank. Now the tank can fire those crazy repulsor beams that Tony can.
Get the same jet pack/repulsor technology and put it in the tank. Now the tank can lift off and fly after Tony at supersonice speeds.

Do this for a jet fighter, and it's as durable as Tony, and can fly even faster than he and the tank.

Do this for a battleship, and it's as durable as he is and can fly.

Suddenly Tony's awesome suit is tame when compared to everything else.

That's what I'm saying would happen. The SW/WH40K verses would look at the MI, and see how much they've squeezed out of their relatively primitive tech to make infantry, and figure out that they could get much much more if they did the same, squeezed as much as they can out of their tech. When the GE/WH40K get super powered armor infantry they now have to rebuild their vehicles to be able to compete and exceed these infantrymen.

#96 ricrery

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 12:09 AM

Considering both super infantry aren't as dispensable as tanks, I'd assume tanks wouldn't too greatly exceed these infantrymen.

#97 Ruinus

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 12:44 AM

Considering both super infantry aren't as dispensable as tanks, I'd assume tanks wouldn't too greatly exceed these infantrymen.


The hell?
Tanks are more valuable than men.
If you have the tech to make men in armor fly faster than jet planes, then you have the tech to put the same thing in a tank and make tanks fly as fast as jet planes. You also have the tech to make jet planes fly fast enough to leave Earth orbit, and maybe even the tech to make battleships do the same.

Another example: You have a SPARTAN, and you apply that tech consistently you can outfit a Scorpion MBT with MJOLNIR armor, an AI that interfaces with the driver and a nuclear reactor that allows the Scorpion to move faster than SPARTANS. Would be even better, and probably less expensive, actually, considering you don't have to kidnap children, replace them with flash clones, and then have to indoctrinate and train them until adulthood.

#98 MarvelFan15

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Posted 16 March 2010 - 01:58 AM

So, how do you guys think the first large scale ground engagement would go if it happened before the two sides got a chance to morph tech together?


The Human Coalition would probably have to rely on massive numbers to counteract some of the Necron tech.


@ MarvelFan15

I think we should set a cap of how many factions should be "allowed" in per side. Too many and it starts to look crowded, as well it would become a logistical nightmare when/if we try to hammer a story into it. As we'd need to fully understand each factions positions, motives, and sympathies... as well as possible fusion tech that they could come up with.


I concur. Seeing as how Humanity will only succeed if they cooperate, they might at first be snarky about sharing tech at first, but will soon see the long-term benefits if they do share it. Like, survival of the Human species. I'm guessing they'll apply their resources at meshing basic weapons tech (like laser rifles and such) and armor, and then move on to vehicles (tanks, mecha), and then onto the ships. Finally, they'll focous their resources on production of holy-crap amazing weapons (Galaxy Guns, etc.). Most importantly, however, they'll probably be sharing battle tactics.

The aliens, however...might not be as cooperative as the Humans. The Gravemind might reinforce the Xenos with Flood Combat Form meat shields, try and overwhelm them with sheer numbers. The Tau, from what I know of them, would probably greedily absorb all the tech they can get their hands on, as long as it advances their overall technology. I'm not so sure as to how sharing the Necrons would be. If they did share, it would be a huge advantage for the Xenos. Eventually, the aliens might divide into different inner factions like you suggested. Another possibility is that they will develope a caste system, based on intelligence and battle prowess. The Flood, Tyranids, and Xenomorphs might even be treated like livestock to deploy en masse...

Still, we will have to think it through. I'm open to suggestions.


Just wait so can my Stargate guys get added?


I'm with Skrimisher: I don't want this getting overcrowded. But, if when think this through, we may be able to safely add several more universes to each side without it getting out of hand.

#99 comic_book_fan

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 09:13 PM

the federation has the best ships of any fiction i know of .

#100 ricrery

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Posted 22 March 2010 - 09:25 PM

Ha! In the Star Wars vs Star Trek fights, I bring up that the Fed Enterprise D can't take 800 gigawatts without losing shields! Star Wars ships do 200 gigatons on low turbos! 200 gigatons >>> 800 gigawatts.

The Federation has one of the WORST ships in any fiction you can think of.




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