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The Perfect Team: The Villains Finals


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#61 MarvelFan15

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 08:19 PM

No different than any other fictional univers. *shrugs*


True...

#62 ricrery

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 08:24 PM

Can Horus summon a warp storm to keep Vegito from bouncing all over the place? I know that Horus can teleport on a whim. DBZ is not beyond light speed. IT = lightspeed by Supreme Kai's statement.

#63 The Technomancer of Nesh

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 08:35 PM

Can Horus summon a warp storm to keep Vegito from bouncing all over the place? I know that Horus can teleport on a whim. DBZ is not beyond light speed. IT = lightspeed by Supreme Kai's statement.

The Supreme Kai never made a statement IT. Supreme Kai did have a technique called Instantaneous Movement. Instantaneous Movement is a technique that allows its user to instantly teleport to another planet. Unlike Instant Transmission, the user does not actually need to focus on a specific energy signature to use as a target. That's the only difference between the two.

Plus there's this manga scan:
Here. Supreme Kai could clearly sense Goku's Power but made no later mention of Gotenks' power unaided while he was in another dimension (Hyperbolic Time Chamber.) telling me that Earth and the Supreme Kai's planet is in the same dimension.

#64 ricrery

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 09:27 PM

Post destruction of the earth, Supreme Kai says that after Kid Buu uses IT that he can travel at the speed of light.

#65 The Technomancer of Nesh

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 09:37 PM

Post destruction of the earth, Supreme Kai says that after Kid Buu uses IT that he can travel at the speed of light.

Here to prove you wrong I have to consecutive manga pages.

Vol. 42 ch. 7 page 7 Vol 42 ch. 7 page 8

No mention of Instant Transmission's speed.

#66 ricrery

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 09:54 PM

In the episode where Buu destroys Earth, it goes something like this:

"Did you see that?" -Vegeta

"Yeah, he used instant transmission." -Goku

"But how could he have learned it that fast, now he can travel at the speed of light!" - Supreme Kai

So, if we go by the anime showing off Kid Buu busting galaxies to the manga showing Kid Buu busting hundreds of planets in a few years, it would suggest that... damn it I have no idea where I'm going with this, but if the GEoM could conquer billions of worlds in a few hundred years, then he most certainly destroy them in a few hundred years. Horus = GEoM clone = stronger than Vegito or Kid Buu.

#67 The Technomancer of Nesh

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 09:57 PM

In the episode where Buu destroys Earth, it goes something like this:

"Did you see that?" -Vegeta

"Yeah, he used instant transmission." -Goku

"But how could he have learned it that fast, now he can travel at the speed of light!" - Supreme Kai

So, if we go by the anime showing off Kid Buu busting galaxies to the manga showing Kid Buu busting hundreds of planets in a few years, it would suggest that... damn it I have no idea where I'm going with this, but if the GEoM could conquer billions of worlds in a few hundred years, then he most certainly destroy them in a few hundred years. Horus = GEoM clone = stronger than Vegito or Kid Buu.

Vegito's a heck of a lot stronger than kid Buu, I was just negating your staement about instant transmission. The manga is the definitive canon. In the anime Buu also blew several planet before appearing on the planet of the Kais. From those scans alone IT's an instant teleportation.

#68 Skirmisher

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 10:49 PM

Vegito's a heck of a lot stronger than kid Buu, I was just negating your staement about instant transmission. The manga is the definitive canon. In the anime Buu also blew several planet before appearing on the planet of the Kais. From those scans alone IT's an instant teleportation.

Instant Transmission is quite Different from Instantaneous Movement.

And for all we know there is no Speed of Light limiter on it. However IT has been Stated within Canon that it only travels AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT. This doesn't speak well for the fact that IT is supposed to be Much Faster than just Super Speed.

As for you Continued Claim that the Kais planet is in Our Dimension... Well here you go...

http://dragonball.wi...wiki/Kai_Planet

"The Sacred World of the Kais (Kaioshinkai) is a planet in Other World where the Supreme Kais reside."

"The Sacred World of the Kais is where the Supreme Kai and his bodyguard Kibito live"

"The Sacred World of the Kais is where the four Supreme Kais and the Grand Supreme Kai used to live, and possibly every single Supreme Kai has lived."

"The Planet of the Kai's seems to be a very empty place; for a large planet, not many reside on it. This may be because of the planet's sacredness, or because it is very difficult to get there, as it took Goku a while to find Gohan in Other World"


Do you still claim that the Kais world is in our Dimension?

#69 Zreth

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 10:51 PM

Hey, Skirm why are they sort of focusing on debating yours and leaving me empty handed?

#70 Skirmisher

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 10:53 PM

Hey, Skirm why are they sort of focusing on debating yours and leaving me empty handed?

Because I don't have a Temporal Trump Card? ... That and I'm attacking their Speed, without which they cannot win.

#71 The Technomancer of Nesh

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 10:57 PM

Instant Transmission is quite Different from Instantaneous Movement.

And for all we know there is no Speed of Light limiter on it. However IT has been Stated within Canon that it only travels AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT. This doesn't speak well for the fact that IT is supposed to be Much Faster than just Super Speed.

As for you Continued Claim that the Kais planet is in Our Dimension... Well here you go...

http://dragonball.wi...wiki/Kai_Planet

"The Sacred World of the Kais (Kaioshinkai) is a planet in Other World where the Supreme Kais reside."

"The Sacred World of the Kais is where the Supreme Kai and his bodyguard Kibito live"

"The Sacred World of the Kais is where the four Supreme Kais and the Grand Supreme Kai used to live, and possibly every single Supreme Kai has lived."

"The Planet of the Kai's seems to be a very empty place; for a large planet, not many reside on it. This may be because of the planet's sacredness, or because it is very difficult to get there, as it took Goku a while to find Gohan in Other World"


Do you still claim that the Kais world is in our Dimension?

Yes I do, the Hyperbolic Time Chamber is in another dimension an you can not IT out or in. You can It to the World of the Kais and other Places in Other World. The only Difference between IT and IM is the lack of need to sense ki.

#72 The Technomancer of Nesh

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 11:07 PM

Because I don't have a Temporal Trump Card? ... That and I'm attacking their Speed, without which they cannot win.

Her, the Manga scan of the Trunks scene:

This proves my point.

The Japanese name for Instant Transmission is translated as Instant Movement, as stated on the scan. This means that your referenced anime lines were dub errors.

#73 Skirmisher

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 11:09 PM

Yes I do, the Hyperbolic Time Chamber is in another dimension an you can not IT out or in. You can It to the World of the Kais and other Places in Other World. The only Difference between IT and IM is the lack of need to sense ki.

Do you think that the reason that you can't IT out of HbTC is that there is a Very Large Temporal Distortion that has to be overcome?

As for the Fact of the Kais planet being in the Other World... Once again, I say that the Laws of Physics May be different there since it is Not our Dimension!

Light speed may be different there, or even not be as binding a law as our reality. Then again, since Distance is moot in the Other World, and cannot be proven, there is no reason to assume that the distance between the actual planets is anything great enough to require FTL speeds, and that actual Light Speed would be enough.

Once Again I also say that Instantaneous Movement has also never demonstrated Extreme FTL speeds. It has been able to do exactly what IT has done and take a "Wormhole" through the Other World to shorten the Actual Travel Distance down to a much more manageable level.

#74 The Technomancer of Nesh

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 11:16 PM

Do you think that the reason that you can't IT out of HbTC is that there is a Very Large Temporal Distortion that has to be overcome?

As for the Fact of the Kais planet being in the Other World... Once again, I say that the Laws of Physics May be different there since it is Not our Dimension!

Light speed may be different there, or even not be as binding a law as our reality. Then again, since Distance is moot in the Other World, and cannot be proven, there is no reason to assume that the distance between the actual planets is anything great enough to require FTL speeds, and that actual Light Speed would be enough.

Once Again I also say that Instantaneous Movement has also never demonstrated Extreme FTL speeds. It has been able to do exactly what IT has done and take a "Wormhole" through the Other World to shorten the Actual Travel Distance down to a much more manageable level.

And you ignore the manga scan that makes no mention of lightspeed.

#75 Skirmisher

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 11:18 PM

And you ignore the manga scan that makes no mention of lightspeed.

As it does not Actually contradict the Higher Canon Source it is therefore Canon, and supplements the Full Canon of the Series.

#76 The Technomancer of Nesh

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 11:22 PM

As it does not Actually contradict the Higher Canon Source it is therefore Canon, and supplements the Full Canon of the Series.

The very name of the technique tells you what itis!

This isn't Star Wars those EU rules don't apply, if they did Brolly would be cannon.

#77 Skirmisher

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 11:29 PM

The very name of the technique tells you what itis!

This isn't Star Wars those EU rules don't apply, if they did Brolly would be cannon.

But Brolly Does contradict Main Canon. He cannot be canon as the timing for the Movie doesn't add up right.

As for the the Naming of it, how sure are you that Both the Kai's and Goku's techniques are the same? Goku's IT may have been Improperly Translated as "Instant Movement". It was only stated to be "Shukidan Idou" and can you speak Japanese? A good way to confirm what you want with this is to actually go and find something that the Kai says to Link these two moves, anything less would be folly on your part to continue this line of questioning.

#78 DataSnake

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 12:14 AM

1. The screwy SW "canon" rules don't fit here.
2. If IT was, as the dub claims, simply breakdown-to-light-and-reassemble teleportation, it would not be able to reach the other world AT ALL. It is therefore a form of dimension-hopping, is not limited to light speed, and can be faster than super-speed without taking away the FTL nature of DBZ characters' movement.
3. Your argument that speed need not be multiplicative does not hold. If it were additive, as little as a 1% speed increase would make someone faster than sight on the high end of things. This is patently absurd. However, being four times as fast as someone WOULD make you faster than sight, no matter how fast the initial speed under consideration.
4. Goodnight. We can continue this tomorrow.

#79 AKUMA

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 12:18 AM

But Brolly Does contradict Main Canon. He cannot be canon as the timing for the Movie doesn't add up right.

As for the the Naming of it, how sure are you that Both the Kai's and Goku's techniques are the same? Goku's IT may have been Improperly Translated as "Instant Movement". It was only stated to be "Shukidan Idou" and can you speak Japanese? A good way to confirm what you want with this is to actually go and find something that the Kai says to Link these two moves, anything less would be folly on your part to continue this line of questioning.

okay i know im interfering a little but lets see.....

broly isnt canon, but the movie actually could line up with the main canon...if the broly movie is taking place within the 9 days of rest in the cell games.then timing is good.

#80 I_KNOW_ALL

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 12:49 AM

1: Since Horus has the power of the chaos gods, that would give him well over the Ki of Mystic Buu, and by both loghic Vegito would take him first! And then its Vegito vs. Mystic Buu.

SSJ3 Goku, SS2 Vegeta, SSJ3 Gotenks, Mystic Gohan, Piccolo, and Buu vs. Kid Buu

Without the spirit bomb they still win.

2: Sephiroth, Darth Reven, Tartarus, and Sylar are all taken by Cell Jrs.

3: Doom is taken by Cell.

Z team wins.




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