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The Perfect Team: The Villains Finals


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#41 The Technomancer of Nesh

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:28 PM

He actually States the Speed in that clip!

That it is only 186,000 miles per second!

Thank you for finding evidence for me.


As for his improving on it, I'm sure that he could have done it some way, since after Frieza they kinda threw out any logic they had with the series. As well, even when Goku was shown to be much faster than light when he used IT again he still made a top over in the other world before going to Namek. We do not know the actual distance Traveled because of this, and the fact that he traveled like that means that he could theoretically travel at multiples of the speed of light, without actually going FTL. He would use it like a Wormhole shortcutting through the other world to cut the distance down and make it seem faster!

The point of showing that to you was to prove it was a dub error, he describes the nature of the technique and it says you become light, the speed of light is constant, unchangable. King Kai's planet is nowhere near Earth and is several lightyears away as is Namek. It's a dub error.

#42 The Technomancer of Nesh

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:30 PM

Then...assuming the speed of light is the limit, how do the other characters manage to go so fast? What exactly does he dematerialize into to make him go faster than light?

Exactly my point.

#43 Skirmisher

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:33 PM

A few points to remember:

1. Vegito can easily move at 200,000c. That is a BARE MINIMUM. The IT thing is a dub error. Everyone except Buu and maybe Horus would be dead before they could blink.

2. Vegito was deliberately trying to goad Buu into absorbing him. Both Goku and Vegeta are quite capable of finishing off an enemy quickly if necessary.

3. Super Perfect Cell has learned his lesson from almost getting killed by Gohan, and is not about to underestimate his opponents.

4. Both characters have massive degrees of Saiyan blood, meaning they will be immune to mind control.

1) Prove it...

2) They can but they won't due to CIS. They would want a fight, and they would want to demonstrate their superiority to Super Buu, and that would leave them open to attack from other characters that do not have to directly attack them.

3) Yet all of the fighter that he would consider a threat are the fighters that are at least "Strong", strong as in lot's of Ki. None of these characters would rate above a few thousand (and that's generous) but they have many other abilities that would allow them to fight Cell, things that Cell would not know about. So he sees a gaggle of Hercules, and goes to smash them like Hercule... and then gets Smoked into nothing but the weight of DOOM!

4) They only have resistance to Mind Attacks, not Immunity. And the level of Mind Attack that is coming their way is on a level that would make even the Best Mentalist of Marvel and DC quake in their boots and piss their pants...

#44 Skirmisher

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:35 PM

The point of showing that to you was to prove it was a dub error, he describes the nature of the technique and it says you become light, the speed of light is constant, unchangable. King Kai's planet is nowhere near Earth and is several lightyears away as is Namek. It's a dub error.

The thing about improving on a Technique is that you can also find better ways to use it. When he's "Supposed" to be faster (a point that I have disproven) he could have Changed what he turns into to something else that is faster than light. That's the point of Improving with Training!

Besides he has never shown that his Later IT is faster than Light Speed IT.

#45 DataSnake

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:39 PM

1) Prove it...

I already did.

2) They can but they won't due to CIS. They would want a fight, and they would want to demonstrate their superiority to Super Buu, and that would leave them open to attack from other characters that do not have to directly attack them.

They know nothing about the other fighters, and after 17 and 18, they aren't about to assume lack of ki equates to weakness.

3) Yet all of the fighter that he would consider a threat are the fighters that are at least "Strong", strong as in lot's of Ki. None of these characters would rate above a few thousand (and that's generous) but they have many other abilities that would allow them to fight Cell, things that Cell would not know about. So he sees a gaggle of Hercules, and goes to smash them like Hercule... and then gets Smoked into nothing but the weight of DOOM!

See above. Also, Cell would realize that he had no way of knowing how much power they were hiding.

4) They only have resistance to Mind Attacks, not Immunity. And the level of Mind Attack that is coming their way is on a level that would make even the Best Mentalist of Marvel and DC quake in their boots and piss their pants...

Then I guess it's back to the good old *fake word*.

#46 The Technomancer of Nesh

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:39 PM

The thing about improving on a Technique is that you can also find better ways to use it. When he's "Supposed" to be faster (a point that I have disproven) he could have Changed what he turns into to something else that is faster than light. That's the point of Improving with Training!

Besides he has never shown that his Later IT is faster than Light Speed IT.

The distance between planets he's traveling between is enough proof and I ask you whhat could he demateralize into that's faster than light. Instant Transmission is pretty much, instant. All you've got is a dub error and a possibly fake interview.

#47 MarvelFan15

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:41 PM

Exactly my point.


Yes, but despite this, you haven't explained how he manages to move FTL while applying physics. You stated yourself that you can't exceed a beam of light past light-speed. You said it defied physics. How then, do the DBZers manage to move themselves past light-speed?

#48 MarvelFan15

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:43 PM

The distance between planets he's traveling between is enough proof and I ask you whhat could he demateralize into that's faster than light. Instant Transmission is pretty much, instant. All you've got is a dub error and a possibly fake interview.


If it's instant as you claim, then it goes beyond the relm of speed. So, what Skirmisher's said about the other non IT speed feats remains true.

#49 The Technomancer of Nesh

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:45 PM

Yes, but despite this, you haven't explained how he manages to move FTL while applying physics. You stated yourself that you can't exceed a beam of light past light-speed. You said it defied physics. How then, do the DBZers manage to move themselves past light-speed?

I said you can't make a beam of light go faster than a beam of light and that the lightspeed thing was a dub error. Instant Transmission is like Nightcraler's teleportation, you pass for and inpercepable about of time and emerge in in another place as if no time had passed.

#50 Skirmisher

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:47 PM

I already did.

They know nothing about the other fighters, and after 17 and 18, they aren't about to assume lack of ki equates to weakness.

See above. Also, Cell would realize that he had no way of knowing how much power they were hiding.

Then I guess it's back to the good old *fake word*.

1) That doesn't prove anything, How much faster is one than the other? It never states that for a fact, for all you know they could only be 1 m/s faster than the other after that ONE actual speed feat.

2) They also knew that since 17 and 18 were androids that they had that type of defence. They don't know that about the other fighters and would not think about it, as the only thing that they consider powerful is Ki, hell even the Androids used Ki attacks.

3) Same as above, and from the look of my fighters he wouldn't care if they are hiding it, as they wouldn't even look like they are hiding it. IIRC someone who's smart enough can still Identify that someone else is hiding their Ki. My fighting are not hiding Ki because they can't and don't have any in large enough quantities to actually look like they could pose a threat.

4) Not when they can't speed blitz as fast as you want them to.


The distance between planets he's traveling between is enough proof and I ask you whhat could he demateralize into that's faster than light. Instant Transmission is pretty much, instant. All you've got is a dub error and a possibly fake interview.

But he doesn't go between Actual Physical Universe Planets, he takes a Short Cut through the Other World, another Dimension, and there he doesn't need to travel FTL as it would be like a Wormhole.

#51 The Technomancer of Nesh

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:53 PM

1) That doesn't prove anything, How much faster is one than the other? It never states that for a fact, for all you know they could only be 1 m/s faster than the other after that ONE actual speed feat.

2) They also knew that since 17 and 18 were androids that they had that type of defence. They don't know that about the other fighters and would not think about it, as the only thing that they consider powerful is Ki, hell even the Androids used Ki attacks.

3) Same as above, and from the look of my fighters he wouldn't care if they are hiding it, as they wouldn't even look like they are hiding it. IIRC someone who's smart enough can still Identify that someone else is hiding their Ki. My fighting are not hiding Ki because they can't and don't have any in large enough quantities to actually look like they could pose a threat.

4) Not when they can't speed blitz as fast as you want them to.



But he doesn't go between Actual Physical Universe Planets, he takes a Short Cut through the Other World, another Dimension, and there he doesn't need to travel FTL as it would be like a Wormhole.

There is no proof that the distance between King Kais planet and Namek is less than that of Earth and the only reason he need to go there in the first place is because hecouldn't sense the Namekians ki and King Kai's planet is specail as it allows one to sense ki from anywere in the glaxy it has nothing to do with the sepeed of the technique.

#52 MarvelFan15

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:57 PM

I said you can't make a beam of light go faster than a beam of light and that the lightspeed thing was a dub error.


If that's the case, then you can't make anything go FTL.

#53 The Technomancer of Nesh

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:58 PM

If that's the case, then you can't make anything go FTL.

No ligt van't go faster than itself but that doesn't stop anything else from moving faster.

#54 DataSnake

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:58 PM

1) That doesn't prove anything, How much faster is one than the other? It never states that for a fact, for all you know they could only be 1 m/s faster than the other after that ONE actual speed feat.

Not really. We don't know the exact number, but it DOES have to be multiplicative, and by a fairly significant factor, to give the effect we see in those examples. For those calcs, I used the LOWEST value that would fit that. Still, just for the sake of argument, let's reduce it to 3. That still yields a speed of 2,872c.

2) They also knew that since 17 and 18 were androids that they had that type of defence. They don't know that about the other fighters and would not think about it, as the only thing that they consider powerful is Ki, hell even the Androids used Ki attacks.

They learned that beings whose ki they could not sense were still formidable.

3) Same as above, and from the look of my fighters he wouldn't care if they are hiding it, as they wouldn't even look like they are hiding it. IIRC someone who's smart enough can still Identify that someone else is hiding their Ki. My fighting are not hiding Ki because they can't and don't have any in large enough quantities to actually look like they could pose a threat.

He couldn't predict how much stronger Gohan would get the first time, and he paid the price. He would not make the same mistake again.

4) Not when they can't speed blitz as fast as you want them to.

They could.

#55 Skirmisher

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:59 PM

There is no proof that the distance between King Kais planet and Namek is less than that of Earth and the only reason he need to go there in the first place is because hecouldn't sense the Namekians ki and King Kai's planet is specail as it allows one to sense ki from anywere in the glaxy it has nothing to do with the sepeed of the technique.

But he still makes a Way stop in the other world on the way between.

Besides, the Other World is in ANOTHER DIMENSION, the same laws as the Real World Need not apply there. Hell People that are Dead are walking around there!

Yet another Fact is that King Kais World seems to only be a Couple months journey away while walking and running. As well, due to the fact that it IS another dimension Namek could be EXCEPTIONALLY closer to the king Kais Planet than to Earth!

#56 The Technomancer of Nesh

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 08:02 PM

But he still makes a Way stop in the other world on the way between.

Besides, the Other World is in ANOTHER DIMENSION, the same laws as the Real World Need not apply there. Hell People that are Dead are walking around there!

Yet another Fact is that King Kais World seems to only be a Couple months journey away while walking and running. As well, due to the fact that it IS another dimension Namek could be EXCEPTIONALLY closer to the king Kais Planet than to Earth!

Okay How about this, in the Buu Saga Goku it'd to the Supreme Kai's Planet wich is in the phisical universe and much farther away than Namek in one go.

#57 MarvelFan15

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 08:05 PM

No ligt van't go faster than itself but that doesn't stop anything else from moving faster.


So, in the DBZ universe, light is the only thing bound by physics?

#58 Skirmisher

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 08:06 PM

Not really. We don't know the exact number, but it DOES have to be multiplicative, and by a fairly significant factor, to give the effect we see in those examples. For those calcs, I used the LOWEST value that would fit that. Still, just for the sake of argument, let's reduce it to 3. That still yields a speed of 2,872c.

They learned that beings whose ki they could not sense were still formidable.

He couldn't predict how much stronger Gohan would get the first time, and he paid the price. He would not make the same mistake again.

They could.

1) But what if the Numbers are not Multiplicative! What if they are just a Series! A is 2, B > A and is 3, C > B and is 4.

Not: A is 2, B > A and is 4, C > B and is 8

2) But only the Fighters, look what they thought of Babidi, somewhat formidable but they never gave him a second though, concentrating only on his hentchmen when they should have been able to easily swoop in for the kill. This is the Disdain they show for those that do not have Ki, and cannot provide a fight up to their Standard! and it will be their undoing here.

3) Oh but he could predict, He knew Gohan was going to get stronger, and kept prodding him. He understood that Gohan had untapped potential and sought to release it.

4) I have been proving otherwise.

#59 The Technomancer of Nesh

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 08:06 PM

So, in the DBZ universe, light is the only thing bound by physics?

No different than any other fictional univers. *shrugs*

#60 Skirmisher

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 08:07 PM

Okay How about this, in the Buu Saga Goku it'd to the Supreme Kai's Planet wich is in the phisical universe and much farther away than Namek in one go.

But it isn't, the Kais world is in the Other World. As denoted by the Grand Tournament they had there!




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