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Magneto vs The Enterprise


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#41 thanosisawesome

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 06:40 PM

 
First of all, the strongest nuclear weapon in the United States arsenal is the B41 with a yield of 25 Megatons. Second of all, those nukes were SPECIFICALLY designed to take out Magneto (which is why they exploded when he tried to deflect them), which means they could easily be of a higher output to ensure Magneto is dead. Second of all, like I've said three times now, he was before literally trying to manipulate the magnetic field of the entire planet, putting him in extreme pain, and then he got nuked completely unexpectedly. Also, directly afterwards, he fought Joseph (a being more powerful than himself) and the entire X-Men. So obviously, fending off the nukes didn't keep him down for much time at all.
 
 
 
Not really. If he has "absolute control" of the entire E/M spectrum he can deflect all electromagnetism. There has been no indication that there is a limit to this ability, or that it depends on the energy of the light. In any case, in Silent Enemy (Star Trek: Enterprise) the phase cannons had a maximum output of 500 gigajoules, which Magneto can deflect rather easily, and that's assuming that they would full out attempt to annihilate the f*ck out of what appears to be a dude floating in space (extremely uncharacteristic of the Enterprise I believe).
 
 
 
Are you sure it was the hull only and not the deflector shields? Because I don't think deflector shields can deflect what appears to be localized magnetic fields, which can be created inside of the shield or even inside the ship (he can also create electric fields inside the ship, meaning all non-shielded consoles and such are toast).
 
 
 
Even if it was, the structural integrity fields at their max can take 82 * 10^9 Dynes (TNG: The Loss) (why Star Trek uses made up units, I don't know), which is equivalent to 820,000 N (1 dyne = 10^-5 N). Using your figure for 2 million tons as the weight of asteroid M, Magneto can easily override the structural integrity fields of the Enterprise with little to no effort whatsoever. 
 
 
 
Also, you never countered my point that what if Magneto deflected the missile right after it exited the Enterprise?

Where did you get that statistic for the nuke?The largest US nuke ever was 15 megatons.



#42 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 06:55 PM

The B-41 bomb was discontinued after the 1950s. It was a massive weapon, weighing over 5 tons. It could only be deployed on the largest bombers, not as a missile-based warhead. Cruise missiles (which your scan clearly shows the missiles to be) cannot handle such a massive weapon. 

 
Even if we assume that the US government in the Marvel Universe has developed a warhead as powerful as the B-41 that can be mounted on a cruise missile, the two warheads together (which the text of your scan says Magneto had to struggle frantically to contain) would still have a lower yield than a single attack from the Enterprise.
 
 
 
The missiIes sent at Magneto could be more powerful, but that requires us to speculate that warheads more powerful than the B-41 have been developed by the US government and that they have somehow miniaturized them enough to allow cruise missile deployment. This seems unlikely because a lot of the weight of the device comes from the radioactive material it needs to generate the explosion. In any case, this is a lot of speculation with no evidence to back it up.
 
 
While it makes sense that Magneto was at lower than normal strength because of what he had just done. It also makes sense that his strength was much greater than normal because he was at a base designed to augment his magnetic powers. It's impossible, without more evidence, to say how his power during this feat compares to his normal, healthy, unaugmented power. To make either the claim that he would normally be much more powerful than this, or much less powerful than this is unsupported speculation. The feat only supports what Magneto actually did, not what he might have been able to do under different circumstances. If you don't think it represents his true power, I can only suggest you find a different feat that does.
 
 
The text box in your scan indicates that containing the two thermonuclear blasts is a frantic struggle for Magneto. In other words, he clearly has limits. It makes no sense that he would have infinite power to deflect light based energies but would strain to contain a thermonuclear reaction, which is only a different form of radiation. If his power over such things was unlimited then containing the explosion would have been effortless. For that matter, fighting the X-Men and Joseph, and changing the earth's magnetic field would also have been effortless. Your own examples demonstrate that Magneto's control over EM radiation, and even magnetism, has clear limits. If you want to contend that he has no limits you'll need to produce some evidence to counter this.
 
 
I agree, an all out attack would be out of character for the Enterprise crew, but raising the shields when encountering a man flying through space on his own power and generating powerful energy fields would not.
 
And the Kirk's Enterprise is much more advanced and powerful than Archer's Enterprise. The Star Trek: Enterprise episode "In a Mirror Darkly" makes that very clear.
 
Magneto vs. Archer's Enterprise would be a very different fight, and I'd probably be on Magneto's side for that one.

 
I can't find specific data on deflector shields vs. magnetic energy but did find this statement on the Memory Alpha wiki:
 
Neither matter nor highly-concentrated energy could normally penetrate a shield. When shields were "up," or energized at a high level, most matter or energy that came into contact with the shields was harmlessly deflected away.
 
Without any evidence to suggest that highly concentrated magnetic energy is the one exception to this rule, we have to assume that they protect against Magneto's attacks as well.

 

 

I wasn't aware of the facts you bring up about the SI fields. I'll concede that it must be the defectors are what limits the damage.

 
 
 

Actually, I did answer your question about photon torpedoes, but I can restate my answer.


 
Magneto will not be able to affect the torpedoes until they leave the protection of the Enterprise's shields. After the torpedoes leave the protection of the shields, Magneto will be faced with the same scenario as in the scan with the cruise missiles, except that the torpedoes are much more powerful and much faster.


#43 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 09:11 PM

...

 

I dunno why there's a massive debate going on when one just needs to do some research on Magneto and they'll find he's going to have a relatively simple time of crushing the Enterprise. _-_

 

Go hit a respect thread or two.



#44 skadoosh

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 10:06 AM

...

 

I dunno why there's a massive debate going on when one just needs to do some research on Magneto and they'll find he's going to have a relatively simple time of crushing the Enterprise. _-_

 

Go hit a respect thread or two.

 

There are many points concerning why he couldn't just crush the Enterprise. Do you have any new points about how and why Magneto could do so?



#45 force_echo

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 11:35 AM

The B-41 bomb was discontinued after the 1950s. It was a massive weapon, weighing over 5 tons. It could only be deployed on the largest bombers, not as a missile-based warhead. Cruise missiles (which your scan clearly shows the missiles to be) cannot handle such a massive weapon. 

 
Even if we assume that the US government in the Marvel Universe has developed a warhead as powerful as the B-41 that can be mounted on a cruise missile, the two warheads together (which the text of your scan says Magneto had to struggle frantically to contain) would still have a lower yield than a single attack from the Enterprise.
 
 
 
The missiIes sent at Magneto could be more powerful, but that requires us to speculate that warheads more powerful than the B-41 have been developed by the US government and that they have somehow miniaturized them enough to allow cruise missile deployment. This seems unlikely because a lot of the weight of the device comes from the radioactive material it needs to generate the explosion. In any case, this is a lot of speculation with no evidence to back it up.
 
 
While it makes sense that Magneto was at lower than normal strength because of what he had just done. It also makes sense that his strength was much greater than normal because he was at a base designed to augment his magnetic powers. It's impossible, without more evidence, to say how his power during this feat compares to his normal, healthy, unaugmented power. To make either the claim that he would normally be much more powerful than this, or much less powerful than this is unsupported speculation. The feat only supports what Magneto actually did, not what he might have been able to do under different circumstances. If you don't think it represents his true power, I can only suggest you find a different feat that does.
 
 
The text box in your scan indicates that containing the two thermonuclear blasts is a frantic struggle for Magneto. In other words, he clearly has limits. It makes no sense that he would have infinite power to deflect light based energies but would strain to contain a thermonuclear reaction, which is only a different form of radiation. If his power over such things was unlimited then containing the explosion would have been effortless. For that matter, fighting the X-Men and Joseph, and changing the earth's magnetic field would also have been effortless. Your own examples demonstrate that Magneto's control over EM radiation, and even magnetism, has clear limits. If you want to contend that he has no limits you'll need to produce some evidence to counter this.
 
 
I agree, an all out attack would be out of character for the Enterprise crew, but raising the shields when encountering a man flying through space on his own power and generating powerful energy fields would not.
 
And the Kirk's Enterprise is much more advanced and powerful than Archer's Enterprise. The Star Trek: Enterprise episode "In a Mirror Darkly" makes that very clear.
 
Magneto vs. Archer's Enterprise would be a very different fight, and I'd probably be on Magneto's side for that one.

 
I can't find specific data on deflector shields vs. magnetic energy but did find this statement on the Memory Alpha wiki:
 
Neither matter nor highly-concentrated energy could normally penetrate a shield. When shields were "up," or energized at a high level, most matter or energy that came into contact with the shields was harmlessly deflected away.
 
Without any evidence to suggest that highly concentrated magnetic energy is the one exception to this rule, we have to assume that they protect against Magneto's attacks as well.

 

 

I wasn't aware of the facts you bring up about the SI fields. I'll concede that it must be the defectors are what limits the damage.

 
 
 

Actually, I did answer your question about photon torpedoes, but I can restate my answer.


 
Magneto will not be able to affect the torpedoes until they leave the protection of the Enterprise's shields. After the torpedoes leave the protection of the shields, Magneto will be faced with the same scenario as in the scan with the cruise missiles, except that the torpedoes are much more powerful and much faster.

ICBMs can have a payload capacity of 7200 kilograms. 5 tons is 4535 kilograms.

 

What? No, a thermonuclear explosion is not just another kind of radiation, it's concussive force (which isn't radiation at all) and heat energy, of which only a small part is radiation. Also, I don't think Magneto can fly in space at all. He flies on Earth using the Earth's magnetic field. Also, why would he be arbitrarily generating a powerful energy field? Are you suggesting he picks up on the Enterprise before the Enterprise picks up on him?

 

So you're saying that the phase cannons on the new Enterprise are over 1,000 times more powerful than the old one? I would like to see some evidence of this. Actually, no need, I did some hard research, and the The Next Generation: Technical Manual rates Enterprise- D's entire phaser array at 1.02 gigawatts. Battle Lines gives a 40 MW figure, Survivors gives a 400 Gigawatt figure, and Who Watches the Watchers gives a 4.2 Gigawatt figure. For comparison, DS9's Technical Manual rates the entire power output of Deep Space 9 (even though it runs multiple phaser arrays) at 790 Terawatts. So even if DS9 tried to obliterate Magneto, it couldn't.

 

Something else from the Technical Manual, The TM states that 2.4TJ is sufficient to vaporize one cubic metre of tritanium which is used in starship hulls. So if Magneto wanted to, he could actually vaporize pieces of the hull. I'm not even talking about crumpling here.

 

Yes, but that doesn't give any indication of whether it can stop a magnetic/electric field instantiated within the shield, or even within the Enterprise. As far as I know, Deflector shields have only deflected things coming in from out. Magneto can instantiate a magnetic field wherever he wants, even inside people (as seen when he scrambles the electric function of the brain or in the iron in their blood). He doesn't send some kind of magnetic ray to the target, he can create localized magnetic fields to affect every metal object.

 

This makes absolutely no sense. After the weapon leaves the range of the shield, which isn't infinite, and he blows it up, then he might be too far away for the missile to affect him, depending on how far away the ship is. And considering space, it's probably going to be pretty far.



#46 force_echo

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 11:47 AM

Where did you get that statistic for the nuke?The largest US nuke ever was 15 megatons.

Do better research.



#47 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 01:00 PM

There are many points concerning why he couldn't just crush the Enterprise. Do you have any new points about how and why Magneto could do so?

 

He pretty much can strip the Enterprise of it's shielding - which makes the defenses argued for moot. He pretty much can crap out a wormhole that sends the Enterprise into a sun. He pretty much has shielding so powerful he could decide to entrap the Enterprise in an instance of one and then proceed to turn it into a ball of metal, plastic, and viscera. He pretty much would wipe out the electronics on the ship relatively easily.  He's also got thermal attacks that are capable of wiping out a city if I recall correctly, which definitely fits within nuclear ranges. He could also scan the Enterprise with his electromagnetic vision, conjure a wormhole, teleport inside the Enterprise, and proceed to explode people apart and take the Enterprise for himself as a nice prize given its tech.

 

He has so much going for him it's silly.



#48 thanosisawesome

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 01:34 PM

Do better research.

Sorry, I meant largest weapon ever tested by US.



#49 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 04:03 PM

An ICBM could carry a payload that big, yes. Are you suggesting that the missiles in your scan are ICBM's? They are clearly cruise missiles.

 

You're partly right, the concussive force is not radiation but the heat is. Heat is thermal radiation.

 

The set up says that Magneto detects the Enterprise first and they only notice him when he flies toward them. I don't know if Magneto can fly in space, but it's in the set up so I'm giving him that. There is nothing arbitrary about the fact that Magneto is generating a powerful energy field. He is using his powers to fly.

 

I appreciate the research you did on looking up the Enterprise phaser data. Unfortunately, the numbers from your sources are nonsense, as should be evident from the fact that they are wildly inconsistent with each other. All of them are flatly contradicted by the evidence from the shows and movies. I'll take them one at a time.

 

The 40 megawatt figure from Battle Lines is equal to 40 megajoules/sec. This means that a 1 second burst would have the same force as the explosion of slightly over 19 lbs. of TNT, roughly the power of a sidewinder missile.

 

The 1.02 gigawatt figure from the TNG Tech Manual would equal about 485 lbs of TNT, or about the power of one 18" cannon from a WW-2  era battleship. 

 

The 4.2 gigawatt figure is equal to a little under a ton of TNT. That's roughly 1/11 the power of the largest conventional bomb. 

 

The 400 gigawatt figure is a little more realistic, it has the power of neatly 100 tons of TNT. That's 9 times bigger than the biggest conventional bomb, but still much smaller than the yield of even a suitcase nuke.

 

The 790 Terawatt figure from the DS-9 Tech Manual is better, but still only yields 189 kilotons of energy, a little short of what you'd get from the warhead on a tomahawk cruise missile.

 

If any of these numbers made sense, I'd agree that Magneto would win pretty decisively. Unfortunately, they don't. I did some math with the 790 Terawatt output. If you put an engine with that capacity in a ship the size of Kirk's Enterprise, it would take more than 56 hours to accelerate to .9 sublight. Since we've seen the ship do this sort of thing in mere seconds, the number in the manual has to be much too low.

 

The other thing about the numbers that is an issue is visual evidence. Ship's Phasers and photon torpedoes visually do similar damage. Torpedo damage seems maybe slightly greater. That can't be if the torpedoes (whose explosive force can be accurately be determined based on real world physics) are many hunderds of times more powerful. The logical conclusion is that the phaser banks on Kirk's Enterprise have an out put in tho 200-250 petawatt range.

 

Magneto has the raw power to vaporize pieces of the ship's hull, I agree, but has he ever used his power in that way? I can't see how magnetism would be as useful in trying to vaporize something as a different form of energy, like heat.

 

If, as you suggest, Magneto can simply bypass the shields and directly affect the magnetic fields within the ship, he could win. For one thing, the antimatter in the ships engines is held within a magnetic field. Mess with that and the whole thing goes boom!

 

It depends on how Magneto's powers work. If he, or the magnetic field he generates, has to be in contact with another magnetic field in order to manipulate it, the deflectors will stop him. If he can psychically sieze controls of a remote magnetic field without such contact, he can win. We know from TNG that deflector shields do not block telepathy. If Magneto is using a similar psychic power to access the fields in the ship, the shields won't stop him. I would like to see some confirmation that this is how his powers work before I agree.

 

Magneto could destroy the photon torpedoes once they left protection of the shields. The fact that they use antimatter in a magnetic containment field would make that fairly simple. The two issues he'd have to deal with are range and speed. He wants to be far away from the torpedoes when they explode, but he also needs to be close enough to the ship to see (or sense) them fire. I can't find a listing for how fast the torpedoes are but I'm guessing high sublight (they are warp capable, but that shouldn't come into play in this fight.) He has good potential to defend against them, but it's dangerous, even for him. Phasers will be much more difficult for him to deal with.

 

Power to power, Magneto doesn't have a chance. If he can mess with the engine core, and do it so quickly that they don't get off even one phaser shot, he can win (though it's unlikely he will survive the explosion.)

 

If he could get on board, Magneto could easily take over the ship. In the battle as outlines, the best he can hope for is mutually assurred destruction.



#50 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 04:17 PM

He pretty much can strip the Enterprise of it's shielding - which makes the defenses argued for moot. He pretty much can crap out a wormhole that sends the Enterprise into a sun. He pretty much has shielding so powerful he could decide to entrap the Enterprise in an instance of one and then proceed to turn it into a ball of metal, plastic, and viscera. He pretty much would wipe out the electronics on the ship relatively easily.  He's also got thermal attacks that are capable of wiping out a city if I recall correctly, which definitely fits within nuclear ranges. He could also scan the Enterprise with his electromagnetic vision, conjure a wormhole, teleport inside the Enterprise, and proceed to explode people apart and take the Enterprise for himself as a nice prize given its tech.

 

He has so much going for him it's silly.

 

When has magneto shown he can strip the shields of anything as powerful as the Enterprise?

 

When has he even "crapped out a wormhole?" And why should we imagine that a wormhole can such in a ship with warp capacity. It'll have the power to suck in anything up to lightspeed, but Enterprises engines are much more powerful than that.

 

I'll agree that he can crush the Enterprise's hull, if he can get through the shields, but all the evidence shows that her shields are much too strong for him.

 

He has a thermal attack that is in the nuclear range? I'll take your word for now, but Enterprises shields can take multiple hits from 64 megaton weapons so that's not going to do anything unless it's much more powerful than it sounds.

 

If he could create a wormhole and get inside the ship, he would win. Of all your arguments, this one sounds like it could have some validity. So far nobody has presented any evidence that he can do this.

 

You have offered a lot of impressive claims, but not a single bit of evidence to back any of them up. Please do so.



#51 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:16 PM

He can strip the energy shields, which consist of gravitons - he can manipulate gravitons. It's how he's produced anti-gravity relatively easily, etc. Even if he couldn't be able to manipulate it, there's literally nothing preventing him from sensing the source of the deflector shields via his vision and generate a local magnetic well to shred these- i.e. the emitters that form up the shields.

 

magreflectspsychicpowerandreve.jpg

 

Actually since the Enterprise is apparently right above Magneto's base on Earth, Magneto can just effortlessly utilize the planet's electromagnetic fields to shred the ship's shields or even the ship itself apart... or even disable the ship's electronics. He's dropped a mountain on insurgents with his magnetism, which should speak for the sheer strength of the localize magnetic wells he can summon up on the ship utilizing the planet's electromagnetic fields, and disabled the entire planet's electronics before.

 


magdropsanmountain6di.jpg

 

magcutsaswath8vm.jpg

^ I cannot find the next page but the context is supposedly him disabling the planet's electronics.

 

Try imagining the fact they'd be caught off guard by such instance and would end up in the likes of a sun before realizing it? Well they wouldn't be able to realize it in time since... you know, they'd be crispy. Though this was just a suggestion, he doesn't need to do this as the prior paragraph is the more likely way to go about it.

 

Refer to first paragraph

 

I'm presuming the fact that he's leveled a city before with sheer infrared radiation / heat before could consist of being within nuclear ranges. But he doesn't need to hit it with nuclear level energy attacks since he's got better means of going about it.

 

The fact that he can use wormholes to transport himself to place isn't in question. The fact that he can use his electromagnetic vision to scan the innards of the Enterprise to configure a wormhole entrance of his picking isn't in question. He's demonstrated the capability to use wormholes for transport, he's demonstrated the capability of his electromagnetic vision. X-Rays are within the electromagnetic spectrum and he can see it in that manner.

 

Here's him effortlessly generating a wormhole and coming back with seemingly no strain:

 

excalibur0822gi2.jpg

excalibur0825xx4.jpg



#52 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:20 PM

Also he can fly in space - he can contain himself within his forcefields - it's just the limited air supply he has to worry about but since this is taking place right next to Planet Earth, he doesn't need to go into space.



#53 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:21 PM

Magneto is one of few over powered people that are interesting as a character.



#54 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 08:24 PM

He can strip the energy shields, which consist of gravitons - he can manipulate gravitons. It's how he's produced anti-gravity relatively easily, etc.

 

Your scan doesn't show him manipulating gravitons. He's creating a powerful enough magnetic field to "effectively reverse gravity." In other words, he's countering gravity with magnetism, not affecting gravity himself.

If he could manipulate gravitons, his power to do so would be limited and the Enterprise's shields are comfortably above his demonstrated upper limits.

 

Even if he couldn't be able to manipulate it, there's literally nothing preventing him from sensing the source of the deflector shields via his vision and generate a local magnetic well to shred these- i.e. the emitters that form up the shields.

The emitters are protected by the shields. If he can't get through the shields he can't disable the emitters.

Actually since the Enterprise is apparently right above Magneto's base on Earth, Magneto can just effortlessly utilize the planet's electromagnetic fields to shred the ship's shields or even the ship itself apart... or even disable the ship's electronics. He's dropped a mountain on insurgents with his magnetism, which should speak for the sheer strength of the localize magnetic wells he can summon up on the ship utilizing the planet's electromagnetic fields, and disabled the entire planet's electronics before.

Effortlessly? In force Echo's scans we see that manipulating the earth's magnetic field was extremely difficult and painful. Please provide some evidence of how great a power boost this would give him, or that he can do it at all.

Dropping a mountain is not a big deal at the power levels we're talking about. He was able to lift Asteriod M into orbit, and that's something like 2 million tons. If he applied the same energy (114,000 terrajoules) at a much lower speed, say (25 meters/sec) he could raise about 1,140,000,000,000 tons. That's impressive, but 114,000 terrajoules isn't enough to break through the Enterprise's shields.

I don't know how to calculate the power of an EMP that would take out the world's electronics, but the feat isn't relevant here. 23rd century technology is much more resistant to such things. The EMP created by the nuclear weapon fired at the Enterprise in "Patterns of Force" had no effect at all, and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" states that magnetic storms were a hazard in the early days of space travel but, by the time of Kirk's Enterprise they  are no longer an issue.

 

It's impossible to say anything definitive without knowing how strong Magneto's pulse is and how good the hardening of Enterprises circuits are. My guess is that Magneto's pulse wouldn't have much effect on Enterprise. I understand if you disagree, but both our answers are mostly guesswork without more evidence.

 

The scan with the wormhole is interesting. Is this something he does regularly, or just this once? Do we know anything about his limits? There's a good chance that this idea could work but it would be nice to know more about it to be sure.



#55 kainboa

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 08:33 PM

He has previously done the wormhole thing fairly casually, moving from the X-mansion to New York, where he also demonstrated relatively casual Matter manipulation, in changing his uniform into civilian clothes.

 

I don't have a scan of it on hand, but I'll go through my comics and see if I can't find it.



#56 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 08:37 PM

He doesn't need to go through the shields - you don't seem to understand that he can generate it on or within the emitters.



#57 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 09:56 PM

I understand the claim that both you and Force Echo have made. I also understand that neither of you has presented any evidence that this is anything more than an opinion. 



#58 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 10:09 PM

It's not an opinion but a fact that he's capable of generating wells wherever he pleases, especially if he's using the planet's fields to create these wells. That would mean it bypasses the shields and destroys them since they're being formed on site and not coming in from out. I believe we've already established that Magneto is capable of shredding the Enterprise's Hull. He's capable of doing so by bypassing the deflector shield via said manifestations of said wells at said sites.



#59 Dinsdale Piranha

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    Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 10:20 PM

If it's a fact you should be able to offer some evidence to that effect.



#60 Jaeger Panzer

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    The Gorram Hypocyte™ ~1337 Slenderman~

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 10:25 PM

Wormholes - effectively a use of his electromagnetism where he wants to go.

 

The widespread EMP Pulse.

 

Channeling his magnetic power to lift and drop a mountain.

 

Plenty of instances you can find and read for yourself that indicates high end control of his power in terms of positioning where he wants it to happen and what effect to a degree. Hence my constant, incessant affirmation that it can be done.

 

Also I'm under the impression you're holding out that the shielding would render any medium of the attack I'm suggest impossible - is that the case or?






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