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Magneto vs The Enterprise


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#21 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 03:31 PM

The Enterprise's torpedoes use 1.5 kg of antimatter, which would create 60 megatons of explosive capability. Magneto's deflected multiple nukes effortlessly. Plus, the fact is he can easily deflect any missile or E/M based attack directed at him.

I'll accept this yield if you can source it.

 

Has Magneto deflected the energy of the explosion or just the missiles? If it's just missiles it doesn't help. Trying to deflect a photon torpedo (as with deflector shields) causes it to detonate. Also, phasers do similar levels of damage. Can you show me where Magneto has shielded energies on this level?



#22 sirmethos

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 03:48 PM

This http://www.edwardmul...rams&Amount=1,5

 

Says that 1.5 kg of anti-matter, would produce 64.44 megatons of force.



#23 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 08:41 PM

It's a good link, though I'm more interested in where Force got the information that photon torpedoes use a payload of 1.5 kg of the stuff. I've looked high and low and can't find this figure.



#24 sirmethos

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 08:59 PM

Ah.

 

Try here http://en.memory-alp.../Photon_torpedo

 

The second type warhead was loaded with a maximum yield of only 1.5 kilograms of antideuterium. Due to the premixed reactants, the released energy per unit time is greater than the result of a rupture in a storage pod containing 100 cubic meters of antideuterium. The torpedo had a dry mass of 247.5 kilograms. (pg. 129, 68 referenced) By using standard physics calculations, a payload of 1.5 kilograms equals to about 64 megatons. The second type, at maximum yield, achieves the level of destructive force of an antimatter pod rupture. Antimatter is stored as liquid or slush on starships. (pg. 69) Density of mere liquid antideuterium is around 160 kilograms per cubic meter. According to this comparison the high annihilation rate energy release would be comparable to about 690 gigatons. For the sake of plausibility the affected blast area at these intensities might be extremely small. Visual effects on-screen would seem to confirm this.



#25 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 09:05 PM

Thanks



#26 force_echo

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 11:41 AM

I'll accept this yield if you can source it.

 

Has Magneto deflected the energy of the explosion or just the missiles? If it's just missiles it doesn't help. Trying to deflect a photon torpedo (as with deflector shields) causes it to detonate. Also, phasers do similar levels of damage. Can you show me where Magneto has shielded energies on this level?

Then why doesn't he deflect the torpedo as soon as it exits the Enterprise? Or just crumple the ship? 

 

magtakespain1fh.jpg

 

Multiple nukes fired by the US government at point blank range while he was in huge pain from before. After this he battled Joseph and the X-Men, so it obviously didn't require much effort to completely nullify the effects. And Phasers won't work, as I said before, any light based energy Magneto can deflect because he literally has all control of it.

 

magcontrolsphotons24qd.jpg



#27 skadoosh

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:21 PM

I just wanna point out that in the above scan Magneto looks like he's putting a lot of effort into defending himself, actually.

 

Other than that, very impressive, Kirk and co. are looking more and more screwed.



#28 force_echo

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:27 PM

Because he was in immense pain before the nukes hit, like I've already said.



#29 skadoosh

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:42 PM

Yeah, which is impressive, but you also said this -

 

it obviously didn't require much effort to completely nullify the effects.

 

- which is not true. He is clearly putting effort into what he's doing. Just wanted to point that out.



#30 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:04 PM

Then why doesn't he deflect the torpedo as soon as it exits the Enterprise? Or just crumple the ship? 

Because they're protected by the ship's shields. As I said before, these should be able to deflect focused electromagnetism in the same way they are able to deflect focused light or radiation. 

magtakespain1fh.jpg

 

Multiple nukes fired by the US government at point blank range while he was in huge pain from before. After this he battled Joseph and the X-Men, so it obviously didn't require much effort to completely nullify the effects.

You say "obviously didn't require much effort" but the text in your scan says "Magneto struggles desperately to minimize the force of the nuclear reactions--" The expression on Magneto's face and the way the muscles are standing out in his neck also demonstrate how difficult this is for him.

 

Technically, there are "multiple" missiles, though your scan shows that multiple means "two" in this instance. They are US missiles and the most powerful warhead currently in the US nuclear arsenal is the B-83, which delivers a yield of 1.2 megatons. Therefore, based on your scan, Magneto is at his limit containing a combined release of 2.4 megatons. That's very impressive, but a single photon torpedo (and thanks for providing this info) can deliver about 30 times that much energy.

And Phasers won't work, as I said before, any light based energy Magneto can deflect because he literally has all control of it.

 

magcontrolsphotons24qd.jpg

You haven't answered the objection I've raised twice about the level of energy. Your scan shows that Magneto can affect light-based attacks but this does support your assertion that he "literally has all control of it." To be able to gain control of any light based attack regardless of how powerful it is would require him to be infinitely powerful. You haven't provided any evidence of that. 

 

He can overcome Dazzler's attack because he's much more powerful than Dazzler. I'm sure he could handle hand phasers pretty easily too. But Dazzler's powers are puny compared to the Enterprise's main phaser banks. As your scan establishes, Magneto's upper limit is alightly better than 2.4 megatons (which converts to 10,000 terajoules) of energy. The ship's main phaser banks have comparable power to her photon torpedoes and will generate about 30 times what he can handle.

 

To go back to your question "why doesn't he just crumple the ship" it's because he can't, he's not powerful enough.

 

In "Into Darkness" the Enterprise survives multiple phaser and photon torpedo hits. We know that any of these hits is equivalent to a 60 megaton nuclear explosion, which should obliterate a vessel of her size. Instead, they do very localized damage. This is because the ship is held together by structural integrity fields (they are needed to withstand the acceleration stress of warp speed and even the accelerations at sublight speeds which would tear any metal ship apart.) They make the hull of the Enterprise so durable that these powerful weapons only do the damage you'd expect from big conventional weapons, like battleship guns. The 10,000 or so terajoule Magneto can muster may cause some very minor damage but its far short of what the Enterprise can take.

 

So, the encounter probably goes like this: Sensors pick up a man flying through space. Kirk orders Uhuru to hail him. Magneto is non-responsive and keeps coming. He tries to crumple the ship with his powers but the structural integrity fields are too much for him.

 

Kirk, not wanting to risk minor damage has the shields raised. Magneto finds he can no longer affect the ship directly and begins trying to breach the shields. Spock says that there is no immediate danger but, if he is able to keep up this level of attack indefinitely, he may eventually get through. Kirk orders a phaser burst on 1/20 power which overloads Magneto's shields and renders him unconcious (if he's lucky.) He can figure out what to do with him at that point.

 

The problem would be if Magneto managed to get on board. I don't think there's any way the crew could deal with him if that happened. 



#31 Omega11

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:13 PM

That scan of the missiles and Magneto is from the Magneto War. The citadel Magneto is in there? He built it to boost his powers. That is also how he was able to disrupt all of the electronics on Earth.

#32 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:28 PM

^^That is why feats/scans need to have context.



#33 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:25 PM

I need to make a small correction to what I said before. The warhead I listed before is for a bomber deployed explosive. Since these are cruise missiles they would be using the W80 which tops out at 150 kilotons of force.

 

A proton torpedo would have 200 times the yield of moth of the missiles combined.



#34 sirmethos

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:45 PM

I'm not sure why people haven't brought up the obvious option for an easy win for Magneto.

 

Open a wormhole into the ship, slaughter everyone on board.

 

 

Also, @Dinsdale, about Magneto's limit being about 10.000 terajoule, does lifting Asteroid M, and disabling every electronic device on the planet, from orbit, fall within that limit?



#35 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:51 PM

How heavy is Asteroid M?



#36 Classic80s

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 09:54 PM

 

In "Into Darkness" the Enterprise survives multiple phaser and photon torpedo hits. We know that any of these hits is equivalent to a 60 megaton nuclear explosion. 

 

How do we know this?



#37 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 09:55 PM

This is really rough but…

XMEN-Utopia.jpg

I didn't find any images of Asteroid M with anything of known size for comparison, however I did find this image of Utopia (created from Asteroid M) with human figures on it. Using this and comparing it to images of Asteroid M, I estimate it's about 176' * 176' * 264' or 8.178×10^6 cubic feet. Figuring in the average density of a nickel-iron asteroid yields a hair over 2,000,000 tons.

 

Earth escape velocity is 25,010 miles per hour and the kinetic energy of that mass, traveling at that velocity is 114,000 terajoules, which is the equivalent of a 27.25 megaton explosion. That's a lot more powerful than my calculations based on the cruise missiles (apparently the US uses more powerful warheads in the Marvel Universe) but still only about a third of what he'd need to shield against a single photon torpedo or phaser burst.



#38 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 10:00 PM

How do we know this?

It's either that or they're suddenly using some new and much less powerful kind of torpedo than is described at the Memory Alpha Star Trek wiki, which makes no sense.

 

And we can tell that the phasers have a similar output to torpedoes because they visibly do similar damage.



#39 skadoosh

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 04:15 PM

I'm not sure why people haven't brought up the obvious option for an easy win for Magneto.

 

Open a wormhole into the ship, slaughter everyone on board.

 

 

Also, @Dinsdale, about Magneto's limit being about 10.000 terajoule, does lifting Asteroid M, and disabling every electronic device on the planet, from orbit, fall within that limit?

 

When has Magneto opened a wormhole with his own powers? Also, regarding disabling every electronic device on Earth, this was brought up a few posts ago:

 

That scan of the missiles and Magneto is from the Magneto War. The citadel Magneto is in there? He built it to boost his powers. That is also how he was able to disrupt all of the electronics on Earth.



#40 force_echo

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 04:28 PM

Because they're protected by the ship's shields. As I said before, these should be able to deflect focused electromagnetism in the same way they are able to deflect focused light or radiation. 
 
You say "obviously didn't require much effort" but the text in your scan says "Magneto struggles desperately to minimize the force of the nuclear reactions--" The expression on Magneto's face and the way the muscles are standing out in his neck also demonstrate how difficult this is for him.
 
 
 
Technically, there are "multiple" missiles, though your scan shows that multiple means "two" in this instance. They are US missiles and the most powerful warhead currently in the US nuclear arsenal is the B-83, which delivers a yield of 1.2 megatons. Therefore, based on your scan, Magneto is at his limit containing a combined release of 2.4 megatons. That's very impressive, but a single photon torpedo (and thanks for providing this info) can deliver about 30 times that much energy.
 
You haven't answered the objection I've raised twice about the level of energy. Your scan shows that Magneto can affect light-based attacks but this does support your assertion that he "literally has all control of it." To be able to gain control of any light based attack regardless of how powerful it is would require him to be infinitely powerful. You haven't provided any evidence of that. 
 
 
 
He can overcome Dazzler's attack because he's much more powerful than Dazzler. I'm sure he could handle hand phasers pretty easily too. But Dazzler's powers are puny compared to the Enterprise's main phaser banks. As your scan establishes, Magneto's upper limit is alightly better than 2.4 megatons (which converts to 10,000 terajoules) of energy. The ship's main phaser banks have comparable power to her photon torpedoes and will generate about 30 times what he can handle.
 
 
 
To go back to your question "why doesn't he just crumple the ship" it's because he can't, he's not powerful enough.
 
 
 
In "Into Darkness" the Enterprise survives multiple phaser and photon torpedo hits. We know that any of these hits is equivalent to a 60 megaton nuclear explosion, which should obliterate a vessel of her size. Instead, they do very localized damage. This is because the ship is held together by structural integrity fields (they are needed to withstand the acceleration stress of warp speed and even the accelerations at sublight speeds which would tear any metal ship apart.) They make the hull of the Enterprise so durable that these powerful weapons only do the damage you'd expect from big conventional weapons, like battleship guns. The 10,000 or so terajoule Magneto can muster may cause some very minor damage but its far short of what the Enterprise can take.
 
 
 
So, the encounter probably goes like this: Sensors pick up a man flying through space. Kirk orders Uhuru to hail him. Magneto is non-responsive and keeps coming. He tries to crumple the ship with his powers but the structural integrity fields are too much for him.
 
 
 
Kirk, not wanting to risk minor damage has the shields raised. Magneto finds he can no longer affect the ship directly and begins trying to breach the shields. Spock says that there is no immediate danger but, if he is able to keep up this level of attack indefinitely, he may eventually get through. Kirk orders a phaser burst on 1/20 power which overloads Magneto's shields and renders him unconcious (if he's lucky.) He can figure out what to do with him at that point.
 
 
 
The problem would be if Magneto managed to get on board. I don't think there's any way the crew could deal with him if that happened. 
 
First of all, the strongest nuclear weapon in the United States arsenal is the B41 with a yield of 25 Megatons. Second of all, those nukes were SPECIFICALLY designed to take out Magneto (which is why they exploded when he tried to deflect them), which means they could easily be of a higher output to ensure Magneto is dead. Second of all, like I've said three times now, he was before literally trying to manipulate the magnetic field of the entire planet, putting him in extreme pain, and then he got nuked completely unexpectedly. Also, directly afterwards, he fought Joseph (a being more powerful than himself) and the entire X-Men. So obviously, fending off the nukes didn't keep him down for much time at all.
 
 
 
Not really. If he has "absolute control" of the entire E/M spectrum he can deflect all electromagnetism. There has been no indication that there is a limit to this ability, or that it depends on the energy of the light. In any case, in Silent Enemy (Star Trek: Enterprise) the phase cannons had a maximum output of 500 gigajoules, which Magneto can deflect rather easily, and that's assuming that they would full out attempt to annihilate the f*ck out of what appears to be a dude floating in space (extremely uncharacteristic of the Enterprise I believe).
 
 
 
Are you sure it was the hull only and not the deflector shields? Because I don't think deflector shields can deflect what appears to be localized magnetic fields, which can be created inside of the shield or even inside the ship (he can also create electric fields inside the ship, meaning all non-shielded consoles and such are toast).
 
 
 
Even if it was, the structural integrity fields at their max can take 82 * 10^9 Dynes (TNG: The Loss) (why Star Trek uses made up units, I don't know), which is equivalent to 820,000 N (1 dyne = 10^-5 N). Using your figure for 2 million tons as the weight of asteroid M, Magneto can easily override the structural integrity fields of the Enterprise with little to no effort whatsoever. 
 
 
 
Also, you never countered my point that what if Magneto deflected the missile right after it exited the Enterprise?





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