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#81 Magnamax

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 12:13 PM

Sure, but Batman uses his martial arts with greater effectiveness than those two, especially Wolverine. Knowing and mastering that many forms of martial arts and being able to consistently blend those into unique styles makes him a more skilled, unpredictable fighter than Cap.



#82 force_echo

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 02:21 PM

No, not at all. Knowing more martial arts doesn't mean you're more skilled in real life or in comics. and to say Batman utilized martial arts more effectively than Iron Fist, is not knowing anything about the H2H capability of the best fighter in the Marvel Universe. Also, he most definitely cannot use martial arts better than Wolverine. Wolverine, when he's not beserking, has literally hundreds of years of experience to pull on.



#83 thanosisawesome

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 02:30 PM

I find it hilarious that when Batman does something superhuman, it can't be true and is invalid. Cap does it, and it's totally fine.

 

Batman HAS created his own style, as stated in Shadow of The Bat #0. So get your facts straight. Batman knows every pressure point, can incapacitate someone in 463 ways without drawing blood, has used Chi techniques to survive in the Himalayas naked for hours and literally melt the ice, and has trained under the likes of Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon. As for Wolverine, Batman regularly goes toe-to-toe with and beats Ra's al Ghul, who has had hundreds of years more experience than Wolverine. I have proof of all the above claims if necessary.

 

Batman also regularly beats down the likes of Solomon Grundy and Blockbuster, and thrashes Bane, who lifts two tons on venom. As for bullet timing, nothing I post will convince you. But what do you call this?

 

1360362-batman_bullet_time_matrix_style_super.jpg



#84 force_echo

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:22 PM

I find it hilarious that when Batman does something superhuman, it can't be true and is invalid. Cap does it, and it's totally fine.

 

Batman HAS created his own style, as stated in Shadow of The Bat #0. So get your facts straight. Batman knows every pressure point, can incapacitate someone in 463 ways without drawing blood, has used Chi techniques to survive in the Himalayas naked for hours and literally melt the ice, and has trained under the likes of Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon. As for Wolverine, Batman regularly goes toe-to-toe with and beats Ra's al Ghul, who has had hundreds of years more experience than Wolverine. I have proof of all the above claims if necessary.

 

Batman also regularly beats down the likes of Solomon Grundy and Blockbuster, and thrashes Bane, who lifts two tons on venom. As for bullet timing, nothing I post will convince you. But what do you call this?

 

1360362-batman_bullet_time_matrix_style_super.jpg

Yeah, maybe because Captain America isn't a completely unassisted human. Heads up, the SUPER SOLDIER serum turned him into a SUPER SOLDIER. Despite what the Marvel wiki says (and there have been sources, like the MU Handbook that say he's enhanced human) he is not peak human.

 

Oh, he can keep himself warm and melt ice? That's very nice. Definitely more impressive than bringing yourself back from the dead, I concede all of my points. Daredevil also knows every pressure point. Yeah, he can incapacitate 463 different ways. Cool. Iron Fist can kill in an infinite number of ways. Still didn't beat Cap though. Telling me who Batman trains under makes no difference to me. Especially with Lady Shiva and the overhype that is Richard Dragon. Meh. Oh, Ra's Al Ghul has superhuman strength, an unbreakable skeleton with razor sharp claws, and a vastly superhuman regenerative factor? Wow, I didn't know that, thanks for the tip.

 

Terrax lifts over 100 tons, and is on Thor's level of strength. Rhino lifts over 75 tons. Spider-Man lifts 10 tons, and with the Starktech suit on, even more. I'm sure Batman can beat street-level-Grundy and Bane, lol.

 

I call that no proof that Batman didn't start dodging before he pulled the trigger. I call that, even if it is bullet dodging, it's not nearly as impressive as leaping across a room to catch a bullet before it fires at another person at point blank range.



#85 xLEGACYx

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:28 PM

before you two continue this flame war, they both have outrageous feats for peak human characters. (which both are)  They both are highly skilled, really strong, agile, and fast.  Cap has an advantage in endurance and Bats has an advantage in skill.  In the end it will all come down to if Bats could finish it quickly.  If not, Cap wins. (due to superior endurance)  

 

Any random encounter between the two comes down to 50/50



#86 thanosisawesome

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:38 PM

Yeah, maybe because Captain America isn't a completely unassisted human. Heads up, the SUPER SOLDIER serum turned him into a SUPER SOLDIER. Despite what the Marvel wiki says (and there have been sources, like the MU Handbook that say he's enhanced human) he is not peak human.

 

Oh, he can keep himself warm and melt ice? That's very nice. Definitely more impressive than bringing yourself back from the dead, I concede all of my points. Daredevil also knows every pressure point. Yeah, he can incapacitate 463 different ways. Cool. Iron Fist can kill in an infinite number of ways. Still didn't beat Cap though. Telling me who Batman trains under makes no difference to me. Especially with Lady Shiva and the overhype that is Richard Dragon. Meh. Oh, Ra's Al Ghul has superhuman strength, an unbreakable skeleton with razor sharp claws, and a vastly superhuman regenerative factor? Wow, I didn't know that, thanks for the tip.

 

Terrax lifts over 100 tons, and is on Thor's level of strength. Rhino lifts over 75 tons. Spider-Man lifts 10 tons, and with the Starktech suit on, even more. I'm sure Batman can beat street-level-Grundy and Bane, lol.

 

I call that no proof that Batman didn't start dodging before he pulled the trigger. I call that, even if it is bullet dodging, it's not nearly as impressive as leaping across a room to catch a bullet before it fires at another person at point blank range.

Heads up, the serum turns him into a peak human. This is 616 Cap, not Ultimate Cap. So you are completely wrong.

 

Proof that Daredevil knows every pressure point? And it's incapacitate in 453 ways without drawing blood. And as for bringing yourself back from the dead, that's cool and all, but wouldn't help in a fight. And when has he even done this, with no outside help? No, I'm saying that Ra's al Ghul is more skilled than Cap by a huge margin, and has hundreds of years of experience. 

 

Any of those encounters would be PIS, plain and simple. Further, I would like scans of each.

 

Nothing I say will convince you that Batman dodges bullets, no matter how many scans I show of him doing so. It's really pointless.



#87 kainboa

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:10 AM

snip

 

 

snip

 


they both have outrageous feats for peak human characters. (which both are)

They can call Cap peak human all they want, but his feats shows that he is quite clearly not.

Heads up, the serum turns him into a peak human.

No, that is what they typically say it did, what it actually did, was turn him a super human, based on what he's done in the comics.



#88 bigballerju

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 11:48 AM

Captain America is a enhanced human which is above peak human like Force said. Brubaker on his Captain America run changed it to that and you can probably see that for yourself in the most current Marvel Handbook which is the official canon. Captain America has feats that Batman hasn't done. Captain America can see very faster then humans for example to dodge bullets. Example here:

 

 

2360621-cap_sees_faster.jpg



#89 thanosisawesome

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 01:10 PM

Okay, this is the part I don't get. Based on what he's done in comics, Batman is superhuman, and people flip a shit when he does something like dodge bullets. But Cap, also peak human, does it, and it's fine. Both are peak human, with superhuman feats. But I think we have derailed this thread enough. You have convinced me that Cap is stronger and faster than Batman by a larger margin than I previously believed. I still think that Batman's superior skill and gadgetry would grant him the win, but it would be extremely close.



#90 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 01:15 AM

I find it hilarious that when Batman does something superhuman, it can't be true and is invalid. Cap does it, and it's totally fine.

 

It's probably because Cap has super-powers and Batman doesn't. If you give someone an origin that has scientists messing with his body to turn him into a super-soldier you have more latitude to make him do impossible things. The way DC often gives Bats these superhuman feats annoys me. IMO they should either leave him a human level character who finds a way to win in spite of his limitations and drop this crap, or else give him a new origin story where he's bitten by a radioactive bat.

 

As for Cap... Marvel's justified in making him physically superior to any human athlete because of his super powers, but maybe not that superior. With the feats that Force mentioned, he should have blown through enemies like Batroc, Tumbler and Crossbones like they weren't there. And one-shotting the Rhino is absurd. They printed it, so its canon, but this is a man who can win a head-butting contest with a Brink's truck. I doubt you could knock him out with a hundred lbs. of TNT. Realistically, Cap's punch shouldn't even have registered.

 

As for the skill difference... almost impossible to gauge, but Force is right when he says the sheer number of martial arts a person knows doesn't tell you much about their ability as a fighter. After you've studied 3-4 pretty much everything else you learn is redundant.

 

If knowing lots of arts were the measure of a fighter, Grandmaster Ron Van Clief would have dominated the early years of the UFC rather than losing his only match. I say this with a lot of respect for Van Clief, who is an amazing man. I also think that studying many martial arts is beneficial. But it doesn't make you a batter fighter. The bast way to do that is to train intensely in a small number of styles that cover the basics of striking, grappling, pressure points, etc.



#91 bigballerju

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 09:53 AM

Batman by comic standards hasn't shown any superhuman feats to be put on that level. All his feats are peak human which is why he is just that and nothing more.



#92 Darxeth

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 11:21 AM

Batman hasn't just studied all 127 styles, he's mastered them, which would take more time than only mastering 3.

#93 Magnamax

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 01:24 PM

And he's also used said styles to invent several entirely new forms of martial arts



#94 thanosisawesome

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 01:27 PM

He is just peak human, but comic peak human. Some superhuman feats.

 

batbars_halloween.jpg

Easily bending steel bars. I am fairly confident that that is impossible.

 

batman656-manbatswing.jpg

He does use the man-bat's momentum, but swinging 600 pounds around yourself multiple times at head level easily, is also fairly physically impossible.

 

batweightraining.jpg

This picture is well known as Bruce benching 1000 lbs. But if you look carefully, the 500 pound weight isn't even the inside weight. This is past peak human.

 

batmantenses2-weightraining.jpg

This is an extremely impressive showing. With forearm, he is able to lift 300 lbs.

So yes, Batman is peak human. But he is comic peak human, and has many physically impossible feats.



#95 force_echo

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 04:42 PM

None of those feats are physically impossible. Slicing a supersonic missile enough, that's physically impossible. Cleaving a solid metal truck in half, that's physically impossible. Busting through a particle beam-proof reactor wall with your shield is physically impossible.



#96 force_echo

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 04:46 PM

You're completely right, having the ability to stay alive and heal yourself would be completely useless in the fight, it's much more essential to be able to melt snow.



#97 xLEGACYx

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 06:52 PM

thanosisawesome does have a point on the bench pressing feat.  He has 1000lbs in just two plates.  He has a larger one inside of that and two smaller ones outside of it.  Easily more than any real human could possibly do.



#98 thanosisawesome

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 09:21 PM

Can you find me people benching at least 2000 pounds with no spotters and as a daily workout?



#99 Darxeth

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 11:00 PM

The world record for Bench Pressing is barely over 1000 lbs. iirc. and that's from a man who physically resembles a refridgerator.
Batman is 210 lbs. Realistically speaking, it's impossible for him to lift that much weight and still maintain the speed and athleticism he has without being superhuman.

Alas, writers of comics spit in the face of realism for obvious reasons.

#100 bigballerju

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 12:44 AM

Well it's comics. LOL realism pretty much went out the window a long time ago when Superman started moving planets and sneezing galaxies away. In the comics world Batman is peak human by the standards set in that world.






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