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#61 Darxeth

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 11:09 PM

The fact that Cap hits people who regularly dodge bullets. (Daredevil being the first one to come to mind)

#62 bigballerju

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 11:23 PM

To be fair regular humans like Punisher have stopped his Shield. Batman during battle could find a way to redirect it's path or dodge it. That's won't be a problem for him. Cap's physical abilities, experience, and good fighting skills is what gives him the win. Cap has enough of a physical advantage it makes a big difference. Hence why even in JLA vs Avengers it was said Cap would beat Batman.

 

2800592-captainamerica241_10.jpg



#63 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 11:28 PM

And scene where Cap and a bunch of soldiers, or SHIELD agents are attacking Hydra (or AIM, or Nazi soldiers, or any other group that relies on more-or-less conventional soldiers.) Watch the Captain America movie, or the Avengers EMH episode that introduces him. This  kind of scenario also shows up a lit in issues of Cap's title in the 60s and 70s.

 

Cap takes out more enemy troops by throwing his shield than any of his allies does with firearms. Sometimes he is more effective by throwing his shield than a whole squad of men with submachine-guns. This is only possible if the shield is both more accurate and harder to avoid than bullets.

 

What's going on is that there's a common convention in comics that guns are worthless. The bad guys have guns but they are (illogically) less effective than the batarangs, shields, arrows, billy clubs, or fists. The heroes can dodge bullets and can take out characters with their other weapons better than a policemen or soldier can with a gun. This rule applies to Cap, Batman, DD, and pretty much every other character who would logically be shot dead otherwise.

 

You can assume that a character like Batman can dodge a bullet but it looks like what you're doing is construction a faulty syllogism.

 

Premise: Batman can (always) dodge bullets.

Premise: A bullet is faster than Captain America's shield.

Conclusion: Batman can (always) dodge Captain America's shield.

 

There are a lot of flaws in this; let's start with the first premise.

 

There are some scans of Character X dodging bullets. This illogical because human beings cannot react this fast. You'd have to have a nervous system that operates about 10 times faster than what is humanly possible even to have a chance at doing this. That's okay, though because writers occasionally trump logic with the rule of cool, which is unrealistic, but fun, as long as they don't abuse it.

 

But people draw a ridiculous conclusion from this. If Character X can dodge one bullet, he must be able to dodge any bullet. He's a "legitimate bullet timer" and bullets are useless against him. This is a little like watching somebody having a good practice session at dodgeball and concluding that "balls can't kit him." This also ignores all the times Character X is seen ducking for cover to keep from getting shot, and the times he has actually been shot (both have happened to Batman, BTW). You've got a very badly flawed premise here.

 

The second premise is pretty straightforward. Captain America's shield is slower than a bullet. The problem is that you've used used comic book logic for one premise and real world logic for the other. You're changing the rules in mid-syllogism to get to the conclusion you want.

 

The conclusion sounds logical, but let's see how it plays out. Cap's shield is incapable of hitting Batman because it's slower than a bullet. That means that nothing can hit Batman unless it's faster than a bullet. Nobody can ever succeed in punching or kicking or grabbing him because human punching and kicking speed is much slower than even the slowest bullet. Your logic means that someone would need to throw a punch significantly faster than bullet speed just to have a chance at hitting Batman. To give you an idea how fast, the punch would need to be supersonic and would cause a sonic boom.

 

Bane has punched Batman, is Bane a supersonic puncher?

The Joker has punched Batman, is the Joker a supersonic puncher?

There have been a number of ordinary Gotham criminals who have punched Batman. Are they all supersonic punchers?

 

I know this is ridiculous, but when you try to be logical about one character while allowing the other to be illogical you're going to create this kind of nonsense every time.



#64 thanosisawesome

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 05:21 AM

In the crossover, it didn't say Cap would win. What happened was, Batman knew something else was going on and didn't want to waste time fighting Cap.

 

And Dinsdale, I'm not saying that Cap won't hit Batman with his shield. In 4 out of ten fights, he would probably nail him to the wall. But, I believe that in MOST cases, Batman would be able to to dodge the shield. Thus, it is a logical conclusion that Batman would win most of the time, and dodge the shield most of the time, since plenty of characters have done so before. And I'm still waiting on evidence that Cap is vastly more physically powerful than Batman. 



#65 bigballerju

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:20 AM

Edit



#66 bigballerju

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:20 AM

Oh yes it did and Batman said it himself that Captain America would win. You need evidence that Cap is vastly superior to Batman physically? That's common knowledge as a comic fan if you have actually read Cap comics.



#67 force_echo

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:47 AM

What the hell are you basing this on?

 

 

 

No, it's really not. Unlimited stamina? No, just extremely high endurance. And what martial arts feats does Cap have that put him near Batman in skill? The difference in skill is larger than the physical difference.

 

It's so easy to fight while holding your breath right? He can't see through smoke, he just isn't as affected by gas.

 

He has fought at peak physical capacity for 3 days straight before in WWII. I'm pretty sure that's functionally unlimited endurance. Umm, let's see, how about beating every top martial artist in the MU, including Iron Fist and Daredevil?  Cap has done stuff like throwing his shield fast enough to catch a SUPERSONIC MISSILE and rip it in half, and deflecting a bullet already fired across the room from someone else with his shield.

 

A long time. He can hold his breath for 10 minutes with little discomfort while doing strenuous activity. Also, "Rogers cannot become intoxicated by alcohol, drugs, or impurities in the air and is immune to terrestrial diseases. He is also highly resistant to hypnosis or gases that could limit his focus."



#68 bigballerju

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 12:12 PM

Let's see he can run 30 to 49 miles her hour, can leap 50 yards out, bench presses 1200 pounds, can go for a hour without any rest, reaction speed at 20 kph, got from a several stories fall with no problem, heals much faster then the regular human, and more. Yeah vast physical abilities which put him way over Batman. 



#69 Darxeth

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 12:53 PM

I don't remember the issue, but Batman was fighting Nightwing and Nightwing through his escrima stick and made it look like he missed, in which Batman stated: "You missed."
The escrima stick richocheted from behind Batman and hit him in the neck, staggering him.
Nightwing then replied: "No, I just had a good teacher."

Cap could pull off the same technique but with more force and more precision.
Batman wouldn't know what hit him.

Seriously, in a straight up fight, Cap beats Bats. I know you're a big fan of Batman so a certain amount of Bias blinds you from seeing clearly, but sometimes you have to realize when you've lost an argument. And from reading the posts on this topic, you sir, have lost. (In regards to Bat vs. cap)

#70 thanosisawesome

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 02:54 PM

I don't remember the issue, but Batman was fighting Nightwing and Nightwing through his escrima stick and made it look like he missed, in which Batman stated: "You missed."
The escrima stick richocheted from behind Batman and hit him in the neck, staggering him.
Nightwing then replied: "No, I just had a good teacher."

Cap could pull off the same technique but with more force and more precision.
Batman wouldn't know what hit him.

Seriously, in a straight up fight, Cap beats Bats. I know you're a big fan of Batman so a certain amount of Bias blinds you from seeing clearly, but sometimes you have to realize when you've lost an argument. And from reading the posts on this topic, you sir, have lost. (In regards to Bat vs. cap)

 

No, sorry, I haven't. You have just cited some unknown instance of Batman being hit by a ricocheting object. Just because I like Batman doesn't mean you can invalidate my argument.

 

 

 

Let's see he can run 30 to 49 miles her hour, can leap 50 yards out, bench presses 1200 pounds, can go for a hour without any rest, reaction speed at 20 kph, got from a several stories fall with no problem, heals much faster then the regular human, and more. Yeah vast physical abilities which put him way over Batman. 

 

Lets see, 300 lb triceps press (if you know anything about weights you know how insane that is), survived in vacuum for 24 seconds, benches over 1,200 lbs, gets shot with a sniper then runs down a car, and survives having a shovel rammed into his chest. Yeah, physical abilities that put him slightly below Cap.

 

 

 

He has fought at peak physical capacity for 3 days straight before in WWII. I'm pretty sure that's functionally unlimited endurance. Umm, let's see, how about beating every top martial artist in the MU, including Iron Fist and Daredevil?  Cap has done stuff like throwing his shield fast enough to catch a SUPERSONIC MISSILE and rip it in half, and deflecting a bullet already fired across the room from someone else with his shield.

 

A long time. He can hold his breath for 10 minutes with little discomfort while doing strenuous activity. Also, "Rogers cannot become intoxicated by alcohol, drugs, or impurities in the air and is immune to terrestrial diseases. He is also highly resistant to hypnosis or gases that could limit his focus."

 

For the purposes of this fight, it is. Batman is more skilled than Daredevil, and when has Captain America beaten Iron Fist? And Batman swats half a dozen bullets out of the air from across the room.

 

Conceded. But that says nothing about clouding his vision.



#71 bigballerju

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 03:50 PM

You either lack serious knowledge on Captain America or you are as always being biased when it comes to Batman if you think their close physically. Let's end this right now. Batman said himself in JLA vs Avengers which was canon that Cap would win. You

 

2052975-cap_vs_bat.png



#72 xLEGACYx

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 04:35 PM

You either lack serious knowledge on Captain America or you are as always being biased when it comes to Batman if you think their close physically. Let's end this right now. Batman said himself in JLA vs Avengers which was canon that Cap would win. You

 

2052975-cap_vs_bat.png

Saying its conceivable Cap could beat him is not a sure thing.  It means that Bats can tell by the small encounter that he is highly skilled, strong, and fast.  With the two of them fighting it would be 50/50.



#73 thanosisawesome

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 04:42 PM

You either lack serious knowledge on Captain America or you are as always being biased when it comes to Batman if you think their close physically. Let's end this right now. Batman said himself in JLA vs Avengers which was canon that Cap would win. You

 

2052975-cap_vs_bat.png

 

Lol. Either read the scan you posted, or google the word conceivable. As for physicals, I like how you couldn't provide any feats putting Cap leagues ahead of Batman as you keep saying. Every time I debate Batman, people call me biased, and I admittedly am. But this doesn't invalidate my arguments, which haven't been disproven. So instead of complaining about my bias and making  statements with virtually no evidence, try to actually counter my arguments.



#74 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:31 PM

Saying its conceivable Cap could beat him is not a sure thing.  It means that Bats can tell by the small encounter that he is highly skilled, strong, and fast.  With the two of them fighting it would be 50/50.

 

Right, a fight between them could conceivably go either way.



#75 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:46 PM

...when has Captain America beaten Iron Fist? 

 

Iron Fist, Vol 1 #12



#76 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:56 PM

Lol. Either read the scan you posted, or google the word conceivable. As for physicals, I like how you couldn't provide any feats putting Cap leagues ahead of Batman as you keep saying. Every time I debate Batman, people call me biased, and I admittedly am. But this doesn't invalidate my arguments, which haven't been disproven. So instead of complaining about my bias and making  statements with virtually no evidence, try to actually counter my arguments.

 

Your argument that Batman would certainly beat Cap has been disproven. So has your argument that Batman would have no problem dealing with Cap's shield.

 

In fairness, nobody on the other side has proven that Cap would certainly defeat Batman, and you've brought up evidence to throw some doubt on Cap's physical superiority. 



#77 thanosisawesome

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 05:19 AM

Your argument that Batman would certainly beat Cap has been disproven. So has your argument that Batman would have no problem dealing with Cap's shield.

 

In fairness, nobody on the other side has proven that Cap would certainly defeat Batman, and you've brought up evidence to throw some doubt on Cap's physical superiority. 

 

He wouldn't certainly win, but he would win most of the time. And again, he wouldn't have no problem with the shield, but saying that Cap will throw the shield once and end the fight simply won't be true in most cases.

 

And thanks for the issue number.



#78 force_echo

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 09:24 AM

No, sorry, I haven't. You have just cited some unknown instance of Batman being hit by a ricocheting object. Just because I like Batman doesn't mean you can invalidate my argument.

 

 

 

 

Lets see, 300 lb triceps press (if you know anything about weights you know how insane that is), survived in vacuum for 24 seconds, benches over 1,200 lbs, gets shot with a sniper then runs down a car, and survives having a shovel rammed into his chest. Yeah, physical abilities that put him slightly below Cap.

 

 

 

 

For the purposes of this fight, it is. Batman is more skilled than Daredevil, and when has Captain America beaten Iron Fist? And Batman swats half a dozen bullets out of the air from across the room.

 

Conceded. But that says nothing about clouding his vision.

 

He is not more skilled than Daredevil, you have absolutely no proof of that, and you've never given it. You're basically just saying it. Daredevil has beaten almost every skilled martial artist in the Marvel Universe, and knows martial arts so arcane he can actually bring himself back from the dead with chi manipulation. Batman is chump change. He's beaten Iron Fist before twice, the scan from one of the fight's been posted on here before, Iron Fist couldn't deal with Cap America's unique fighting style (that he created) coupled with speed and power. He's also beaten Black Panther (twice), Wolverine, and Spider-Man (with the Iron Spider suit) among others. He's taken on f*cking Terrax. Terrax.

 

No, Batman has never put himself between a bullet and the target after its fired from across a room. He hasn't even dodged a bullet after it's been fired, and you've never given a scan to say otherwise. Cap is not peak human, no matter what Marvel says, he's faster and stronger than every other peak human in the Marvel Universe, he literally bursts a barrier that would take a focused particle beam minutes to penetrate with his shield. His feats put him on Spider-Man level in terms of strength and speed, except not even Spider-Man can one-shot KO the Rhino.

 

He has enhanced vision, and even if he can't see, he'll hear him with enhanced hearing.



#79 Magnamax

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 10:02 AM

Hurm, seems like this thread has been thoroughly derailed.

 

I would go with team Marvel having a slight edge over team DC, but it's pretty close. Blade seems the strongest character and Marvel has a slight skill edge on their side. Rorschach is totally outclassed, great character but he's completely useless in this fight. V fares a little better but probably can't do more hold his own for a little while, Snake Eyes and the Predator won't be working together and can probably take on most of the other heroes but anyone working as a team can take them out. Turtles work well but probably have trouble with the more physically superior characters.

 

I see it as:

 

Marvel

DC

Random

Turtles

 

Though as someone else said with a huge team battle it could really swing either way.

 

Also: I don't really understand how the skill difference between Batman and Captain America is so small. Batman has mastered 127 forms of martial arts vs. Caps training in Boxing, Judo, Aikido, and Jujutso. I think he has refined some fighting style using his shield and mixing various other fighting styles but Batman has invented like six styles of his own. I always thought this was why the fight was close: Cap's physical advantage against Bruce's skill advantage. The fight is a toss up for me, I'd probably take Batman but I can really see it going both ways.



#80 force_echo

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 12:03 PM

How many fighting styles you know honestly doesn't count for shit, even in comics. Like I said before, Cap utilizes only a handful, and he's able to beat Iron Fist, who knows a literally infinite amount and Wolverine, who throughout the years has learned early every one the world has to offer.






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