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#41 xLEGACYx

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 03:16 AM

I will watch some episodes from where I left off later tonight and this weekend and add in some input as well.



#42 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:48 AM

What I like though in that instance, despite Comics Flash being able to run in space, he needed Green Lantern's help to deliver the thing into the sun.

 

A better instance would be when he tore Brainiac out of Luthor because he states he's never gone that fast before, before also including the sun instance. :)

 


In the episodes with Grodd's secret society. Sinestro is battling Flash and says "My constructs move at light speed, the same as you!"  To which Flash replies "Yeah but you can't think that fast."



#43 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:50 AM


In the episodes with Grodd's secret society. Sinestro is battling Flash and says "My constructs move at light speed, the same as you!"  To which Flash replies "Yeah but you can't think that fast."

Also, my take on the Superman vs Darkseid is this:

 

Superman clearly showed he stronger and faster than Darkseid(who was enhanced due to Braniac), which it was damn impressive.  Darkseid does get up without even appearing to be hurt though.



#44 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 11:25 AM

 The single punch sends the most powerful villian in the DCAU through multiple buildings across the city.


Just noticed this.

Ahem. Amazo.

#45 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 12:47 PM

This is going to be hijacked as a debate thread no matter what I say, isn't it?

 

It's a shame, I thought a threat that analyzed the characters' powers through the entire series would have been interesting.



#46 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 01:03 PM

Just noticed this.

Ahem. Amazo.

Ace with her reality warping is up there as well, same with Brainiac Luthor.  Also Chaotic magic Grundy > Golden Amazo.

 

Random facts off the top of my head: (Netflix FTW)

 

In the show Batman is 6'3 240 pounds.  Typically he is portrayed at 225 pounds in the comics.

 

Clayface is pretty damn powerful, considering he took on J'onn and KOed Green Lantern.

 

Grodd's telepathy is strong enough to subdue J'onn with relative ease, but only staggered Superman.  Superman flicked him away, I suspect that if Grodd wasn't so close to his face, his telepathy would eventually over come Supes.  Grodd himself is pretty damn dangerous, maybe even more so than Luthor.  He is a genius himself, mind fuck powers, physically more impressive, and trained in martial arts.



#47 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 01:06 PM

 she definitely isn't on Superman's level of strength in the DCAU.

When her and Superman fought(they were tricked into believing each one was a demon) she held her own.  She had the upper hand for a little bit as well.  Apparently Aquaman is tougher than her though, seeing as how he beat her, but then got dropped from one punch by Superman.  Although Arthur was probably worn out, and Superman wasn't playing games at that point.



#48 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 01:09 PM

Wonder Woman is definitely not on Superman's level.



#49 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 01:52 PM

Agreed, but she gave him a hell of a fight.



#50 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 02:39 PM

Could a moderator lock this thread, please?

 

Edit: Never mind.



#51 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 05:00 PM

That would be a pointless act.



#52 bigballerju

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 05:26 PM

 People are finally having a nice discussion with no heated debates yet you want it locked? People are simply analyzing and discussing the abilities shown in the JLU.



#53 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 03:36 AM

Yeah, you're right. 

Sorry, I'm in a mood and overreacting to things lately.



#54 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 04:51 PM

Hmm with those symptoms, I'd suggest that you take some midol.



#55 xLEGACYx

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 08:43 PM

I noticed in Injustice League (I think), Batman's utility belt holds enough voltage to knock out Grundy.  Joker's knock out gas is effective also.



#56 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 08:53 PM

Yeah, you're right. 

Sorry, I'm in a mood and overreacting to things lately.

 

*pesters and pokes to further infuriate - poke poke poke poke poke poke poke poke poke poke poke poke poke*

 

THAT ASIDE - how far along are you, Dinsdale? :)



#57 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 09:47 PM

Electricity seems to do a lot more damage than other forms of attack. Deadshot's gadget that electrifies the manhole cover is strong enough to stun Superman for a few seconds in "The Enemy Below."



#58 Shockwave

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:43 PM

Is it weird that I think the episodes without Batman were better than the ones with him?



#59 deojusto

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:41 PM

Is it weird that I think the episodes without Batman were better than the ones with him?

 

Yes. Best episode is Great Brain Robbery though, and he only has a minor part in that. 



#60 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 12:12 AM

A few quick thoughts on the infamous "world of cardboard" scene.

 

- IMO this scene gives some good data on Superman's powers. It cements the idea that this version is less powerful than his comic book counterpart and gives us some interesting numbers to play with. 

 

- This scene does not give us a clear of who would win a fistfight between Superman and Darksied. Superman gets in some impressive (I think) shots, and it's nice to see him using his flying and super-speed powers strategically in a fight. As has been noted, Darksied doesn't exhibit any visible signs that he's been badly hurt. He does shift tactics and uses the agony matrix but we really don't know why. It might be that he realized Superman was winning but it could just as easily be that he thought the fight was taking to long, or that a prolonged fistfight was beneath his dignity. We don't really know.

 

- Lord Methos points out that, before the big, window-shattering punch, Superman's punches didn't seem to be doing much. It took (IIRC) four punches just to force Darksied through a building wall. This is true and there are several possible reasons for it:

 

1) This may be because of the limits of Superman's strength. Maybe it would take him four punches to force any foe roughly Darksied's size through a wall. That suggests that he isn't very strong (probably somewhere in the 3-5 ton lifting range.) Since Superman regularly lifts more than this, we can pretty much dismiss it.

 

2) The writers and animators find it easier to do interesting fight scenes if people aren't being hurled hundreds of yards every time a punch lands.

 

This is (IMO) probably the real reason. Unfortunately, this doesn't help us at all in these discussions.

 

3) Darksied is resisting.

 

The fact that there's not always a lot of knockback in superpowered fights makes sense if we assume that these beings have powers that allow them to resist being knocked back. Superman and Darksied can both fly. One of the offshoots of this power could easily be the ability to maintain your position more-or-less when being hit with powerful attacks.

 

4) Superman is using different kinds of attacks. The punch that flings Darksied across the city is meant to do that. The other punches are not.

 

In martial arts there are different attacks that are used for different purposes. For example: the front thrust kick and the front snap kick of Okinawan karate look similar but do different things. The front snap kick is quicker and has less follow through. It generates its power more through speed than weight transfer. It focusses it's energy on as small a target for as short a period as possible. It doesn't throw the person you're kicking back because it's purpose is to achieve maximum penetration. The front thrust kick is slower, generates its power mostly from the transfer of the kicker's weight and maintains contact with the target's body for longer. It will not "kick a hole" in the target nearly as effectively but is much better at throwing the target back and has a much better chance of taking him off of his feet. It's possible that the early punches were more like the "snap" variety and the big punch was more a "thrust."

 

5) Superman was holding back before the big punch.

 

This idea fits with the speech, and the windows shattered by the concussion show that it is clearly a harder punch than he was throwing before. But the conclusion that many fans come up with--that this is the first and only time in the DCAU we see Superman use his real power--is flawed. For one thing, this isn't really that much more powerful than what we've seen in other fights. As others have pointed out, sinilar window-shattering punches have been seen in the fights with Doomsday and Captain Marvel. You might say that the Captain Marvel fight was different because they were both throwing punches, but you'd actually be wrong. There's a counter-intuitive thing in physice that they demonstrated in an episode of Mythbusters. You'd think that two cars, each going 50 mph, would crash into each other with the energy of one car hitting a wall at 100 mph. The surprising result is that this is contrary to Newton's laws of motion. Two cars hitting each other at 50 mph produce exactly the energy of one car hitting a wall at 50 mph. In other words, Superman's punch would have shattered just as many windows, even if Cap hadn't been punching back.

 

We can see clear instances of Superman holding back. When he hits Ultra-Humanite several times without knocking him out in "Injustice for All" he has to be holding back. When (disguised as Batman) he uses about 10-12 blows to put Bane away instead of mashing him to jellw with one punch, he's clearly holding back. I think he's even holding back when he's fighting Wonder Woman under the influence of the illusion spell in Knight of Shadows (at least he is once he realizes it's her.)

 

But does that mean that he's been holding back in every fight up to this one? Against Kalibak? Against Grundy? Against Sinestro? Against Lobo? Against Bizarro? Does the fact that we didn't see this kind of big punch in any of these battles mean that Superman was holding back in all of them? What about the times he's been stunned or knocked unconcious: was he faking? If he was, I'd have some serious doubts about Superman's sanity because his holding back put so many lives in danger.

 

I think the most logical way to interpret the "world of cardboard" scene is to understand that Superman doesn't hold back when fighting foes at or near his power level. The fights with the characters I mentioned and many more were depictions of the Man of Steel going full out. He doesn't usually hit with the level of power we say in the Darksied fight for the same reason Mike Tyson or Chuck Lyddell or any experienced fighter doesn't use his best punch every single time. It's too difficult and too risky. You leave yourself wide open when you fight like that.

 

Superman went toe-to-toe with Darksied, not holding anything back, and was having a rough time. He did some trash talking and took a chance with his Sunday punch. It wasn't enough to finish the job but it seems to have rattled Darksied enough to get him to change tactics. It also made a good, dramatic scene. But it did not invalidate Superman's performance in every fight that came before it.






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