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#21 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:10 PM

Well I think the Flash quote from the comics fit in nicely here. "Those were for charity, Clark." *boom*

Considering later on in JLU when they need to get to the sun real quick to launch a device at it...

Superman: Even I can't fly that fast.

Green Lantern: No, but...give it to Flash.

Nuff said.

#22 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 07:11 PM

What I like though in that instance, despite Comics Flash being able to run in space, he needed Green Lantern's help to deliver the thing into the sun.

 

A better instance would be when he tore Brainiac out of Luthor because he states he's never gone that fast before, before also including the sun instance. :)



#23 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:09 AM

I did not start this thread for it to become another interminable Superman vs. Darksied debate. My intent is to do an analysis of character powers in the Justice League series. If someone wants to start a parallel thread on Superman TAS, that's a good idea and I'd support that, but please don't do it here.



#24 AVP vs The Terminator

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:19 AM

That video is from Justice League (well, Unlimited) and it wasn't a Superman vs Darkseid debate.

#25 sirmethos

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:52 AM

The discussion on the Superman/Darkseid thing, was whether it was an impressive showing from Superman, in the Justice League series.

 

Which it isn't.



#26 AVP vs The Terminator

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:54 AM

In your opinion.



#27 bigballerju

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 09:44 AM

Well if your going to do a analysis of powers as well as skills (Batman) then you can't just use Justice League Unlimited for Batman and Superman. You have to use the Batman and Superman animated series along with the first Justice League series before Justice League Unlimited. You have to take into consideration all their feats from DCAU.  Where on this thread did you see a Superman vs Darkseid debate? People posted that cardboard Superman clip which is from Justice League Unlimited and discussed whether it was a good showing. Which it isn't since we have seen way better feats from Superman in the DCAU. Batman Animated Series, Superman Animated Series, Justice League, and Justice League Unlimited are all part of the same world. Other JLA members first showed up in the Superman and Batman series in the DCAU.



#28 xLEGACYx

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 09:47 AM

In your opinion.

I agree with you AVP.  That was a Darkseid that had the added Brainiac tech.  A single punch from Supes sends a shockwave across the city.  The single punch sends the most powerful villian in the DCAU through multiple buildings across the city.  Then Supes is waiting for him and hits him once and creates a crater bigger than any other instance in the series during a fight.  All the destruction came from two hits total.

 

Supes vs Marvel fight, the shockwave was caused by the two hitting at the same time.  It was the force of them both attacking.  Against Darkseid it was Supes alone that through a single punch and caused more damage than any other fight.



#29 bigballerju

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 10:31 AM

Also Superman has good feats in the Superman animated series. I posted the Flash race to show you how fast he is super speed wise. Also Superman has fought Mongul, Lobo, Darkseid like two times before that cardboard episode, Doomsday, and more in the DCAU. Batman himself has good feats himself. Wonder Woman showed to be a excellent fighter but her feats for how powerful she is are low and she definitely isn't on Superman's level of strength in the DCAU. Supergirl definitely is in the the DCAU close to Superman's level of power for example and showed to be a great fighter in both the JLU as well as Superman show.



#30 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 10:38 AM

I'm sorry I started this thread.

 

Well if your going to do a analysis of powers as well as skills (Batman) then you can't just use Justice League Unlimited for Batman and Superman. You have to use the Batman and Superman animated series along with the first Justice League series before Justice League Unlimited. You have to take into consideration all their feats from DCAU.  Where on this thread did you see a Superman vs Darkseid debate? People posted that cardboard Superman clip which is from Justice League Unlimited and discussed whether it was a good showing. Which it isn't since we have seen way better feats from Superman in the DCAU. Batman Animated Series, Superman Animated Series, Justice League, and Justice League Unlimited are all part of the same world. Other JLA members first showed up in the Superman and Batman series in the DCAU.

 

 

So the fact that I was intending to do more work on this thread than anyone here has ever done on this series just isn't good enough?

 

I had suggested that you (or anyone) start a Superman TAS thread and that I would be happy to help with that. I see you didn't even respond to this suggestion. Does that mean you'd like for me to do all the work, and you'll limit your participation to criticizing?

 

Yeah, that sounds like a good plan :wacko:



#31 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 10:38 AM

Actually my intent of posting that video was what Superman was saying in regards to how he holds back. Which is pretty true in of itself and impressive. Given it was effectively an enhanced Darkseid, yeah it's pretty impressive compared to earlier showings i.e. JL. In fact he did decently against Darkseid in the JL if I recall correctly though it was more in Darkseid's favor and given that he did far better here against an enhanced version... I reiterate, it's pretty impressive. Granted it was using Darkseid to prove the point but yes, he does hold back and it exemplifies this. But alas opinions.

 

Anyways, following Dinsdale's wishes. :)



#32 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 10:57 AM

This is not a Superman respect thread.

 

And it's not a "was this an impressive showing?" thread either.

 

If anyone wants to actually add some analysis, I'll appreciate that. Analysis on this thread means numbers.

 

How far from the impact were windows shattered?

What how much energy is needed to create a pressure wave that would shatter windows over an area this large?

How far was Darksied hurled by the punch?

How much energy would it take to hurl someone with Darksied's mass that far?

How much energy does it take to create an impact crater of that size?

 

Figuring out stuff like this takes time but it's not that hard. I'm not a scientist or mathematician or even especially smart and I can do it. I don't see any reason others here can't do the same.

 

The point of this thread is not opinions, it's facts. It is not debate, it's analysis. It is not defending your point, it's generating information as objectively as possible.



#33 Shockwave

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 11:27 AM

The Question episodes were the best. 



#34 sirmethos

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 01:04 PM

The "world of cardboard" video:

 

0:54, takes Superman 6 punches, to punch Darkseid through a wall. Though at the last punch(where he actually goes through the wall) Darkseid rolls/tumbles what looks like 2-4 meters(it takes Superman roughly 12 seconds to walk from the wall and up to Darkseid's position).

Once he "cuts loose"(about 1:30) he punches Darkseid with sufficient force to send him flying through 7 buildings(the whole flight takes about 9 seconds).

After Darkseid has flown through the 7 buildings(just as he exits the last one) Superman comes "speed" flying into position, waiting for him, and punches(axe punch) Darkseid into the ground below(it takes Darkseid 2 seconds from the point of the punch, 'till he hits the ground), making a crater that looks to be about 2-2.5 meters deep at the center.

 

 

I'll do some math on it, and post that later(unless Dinsdale gets there first :P )



#35 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:05 PM

I was going to wait till I got to that episode but here's a little preliminary work.

 

As nearly as I can tell, the impact crater made by Darksied is about 40' across and roughly circular. The crater is something like 15-20' deep. I haven't found a good formula for figuring the energy needed to to that but I did find something that made a similar crater.

 

On March 11, 1958, a USAF B-47 bomber accidentally dropped a Mark 6 nuclear bomb on a farm just outside the town of Mars Bluff, South Carolina. Fortunately, the bomb's nuclear core was safely locked in a secure container in another part of the bomber, but the 7600 lb payload of TNT did detonate, creating a crater 75' wide and 25-35' deep and cracking walls as far as several miles away.

 

The wall-cracking sounds like it could be a similar pressure wave to the shattering windows in Metropolis seen in the JLU episode. The crater in JLU is smaller, showing that Darksied hit the ground with less force. However, he would have hit the ground with less energy than Superman generated with the axe punch so it's possible that the two punches generated something on the order this kind of explosive force.

 

If this is correct, it would put the upper limit of Superman's punches at about 15.9 gigaJoules of energy.

 

I found a listing for Darksied at Comicvine that lists him as 8'9" and 1815 lbs. I don't know if this is accurate or not for the DCAU version of the character. If it is, then 15.9 GJ of energy could hurl him at an initial velocity of 6215 meters/second. That's 13903 mph or roughly Mach 18. Darksied would be going slower than this because of the less than perfect transfer of energy in a punch, but it gives a starting place anyway.

 

You guys can judge for yourselves whether that's "impressive" or not, that's purely arbitrary. It does sound to me like its roughly consistent to me with Superman's other high-end feats from the series. For example, 15.9 GigaJoules is enough to raise 100,000 tons at a rate of 8.5 meters/second, which is very much in line with his lifting the cruise ship out of the water in the episode "Injustice for All."



#36 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:26 PM

Correction, Superman's lifting output has to be a little higher than this. He has to do better than 9.8 m/sec to overcome gravity. Lifting the ship at 15 m/sec would be 10.21 GigaJoules.



#37 Incredible Hulk

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:30 PM

Correction, Superman's lifting output has to be a little higher than this. He has to do better than 9.8 m/sec to overcome gravity. Lifting the ship at 15 m/sec would be 10.21 GigaJoules.

 

Wow :huh:  How are you able to figure all this stuff out and not be "a scientist or mathematician or even especially smart." :D

 

It's amazing....

 

Also I wouldn't mind trying to help out if it's not too hard to do.



#38 DSkillz

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:38 PM

You might be a little disappointed in how J'ohn is treated in the first season. His strength and durability is usually depicted as on par with Supes and Wonder Woman, but he's almost always one of the first Leaguers to go down in Season 1 fights. 



#39 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:40 PM

Mostly it's research. I looked for "impact crater" and "blast crater" on Google before finding a result I could use under "bomb crater." From there it's pretty easy. Wolfram Alpha.com is good for figuring how much energy a certain weight of TNT will create. From there I just let Wolfram Alpha do the calculations.



#40 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:42 PM

You might be a little disappointed in how J'ohn is treated in the first season. His strength and durability is usually depicted as on par with Supes and Wonder Woman, but he's almost always one of the first Leaguers to go down in Season 1 fights. 

 

I thought it was interesting that Hawkgirl shrugged off the Manhunter's blasts that knocked J'onn out. :blink:

 

Hopefully the data will even out over time.






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