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Lady Shiva vs Daredevil


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#81 sirmethos

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 06:00 PM

To Thanos is Awesome:

 

They're what if stories, essentially, with characters used in characters, from the very people who write said characters in canon stories, so we can base our observations on these. It's the closest thing to canon we're gonna get anyways. 

 

I certainly agree, give Bats access to his utility belt and things get more even, though, to be fair, Steve should have access to his shield as well. As far as pure h2h, Cap would win, after a long, exhausting fight, even for a Super Soldier such as he.

The vast majority of crossovers(with marvel and/or DC at least) are not canon to the main universes(616 for marvel).

I would go into detail on why Cap would win, easily, against Batman, but considering that I've already done that in a few other threads, with that exact topic, I really can't be arsed.

 

Do you have anything to back up the claim that Batman's more skilled than Daredevil?

I'm sorry, but your own perception on "who's on the list" has absolutely no relevance in the debate at all. The fact is that Daredevil's fought and beaten Marvel's top martial artists. If there's a person he hasn't beaten on the top list, it's because Daredevil hasn't fought him or her.

 

Are you serious? Daredevil's fought so many more superpowered/master martial artists than Shiva that it's not even funny. the experience factor goes to him by a LARGE margin. And when has Daredevil been beaten by people less skilled than himself? Anyone who's beaten him, he's returned in kind at some point or another. Also, Lady Shiva simply hasn't been in as many fights as Daredevil (has she ever had her own series even?) so of course her record's going to be more consistent. That's like saying someone who's won 1 out of 1 boxing match is better than someone who's won 47 out of 50, just because 100% is greater than 94%.

 

And who has Lady Shiva beaten? You want to compare her records to the best martial artists in DC? She's lost to Cassandra Cain twice, Batman, Tim Drake, David Cain, Cheshire, Prometheus, Victor Sage, and Richard Dragon. Daredevil's beaten Captain America, Wolverine, Iron Fist, Black Panther, The Punisher, Spider-Man (including once with the symbiote suit), etc.

Wait... You're listing who Daredevil has defeated, but you're listing who Shiva has lost to?  How exactly does that give any kind of comparison?

Listing who the two have defeated, respectively, would make sense to a certain point. As would listing who they have each lost to.  But the way you're doing it, is like comparing apples and oranges.  Not to mention that no context is given, for any of the mentioned fights on either side.

 

People also seem to be forgetting, that Daredevil is the protagonist of his own title, while Shiva is not even a primary villain.



#82 KidStranglehold

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 06:29 PM

Why are people still listing Shiva losing to Tim Drake, when I already explained what happened between the two with scans...Also Shiva has beaten  David Cain when she was pregnant with Cass.

107749-92855-lady-shiva.jpg

 

David Cain is no joke himself. He has stalemated with Batman. And I know for sure that he would give DD a hard fight.

 

The only time David Cain beat Shiva was when Shiva was ill experienced and David Cain had a group with him. David basically had prep and he had her off guard. Also Batman only beat a mind controlled Shiva. Listing Shivas defeat to Cassandra Cain is not even saying much. Cassandra Cain easily outclasses both Daredevil and Elketra when it comes to H2H. And Shiva has stalemated with Cass before. 

 

How about I bring up Shiva humiliating Supergirl. She even beat Shadow dragon who is faster than the speed of sound. 

 

Also Richard Dragon is one of DC's top Martial artist. IMO I think he is way better than Batman. He has even defeated Bronze Tiger. That's not even a low showing for Shiva. I doubt DD comes close to him.

 

Here's the whole fight between him and Shiva:

http://static.comicv...27509-71612.jpg

http://static.comicv...92866-71613.jpg

http://static.comicv...12586-71613.jpg

http://static.comicv...84046-71613.jpg

http://static.comicv...16423-71613.jpg

http://static.comicv...91461-71613.jpg



#83 KidStranglehold

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 06:38 PM

Strangler:

 

Have you read Elektra stories, or Marvel stories where she appears? Let's say yes. You'll have noticed then she doesn't employ Saïs as an absolute rule. Her fists and kicks are just as deadly.

 

I certainly agree, they're not 100% similar. They do have a lot in common, dark personnality, zen attitude, training first class hero.. Shiva taught Bruce, Elektra too Logan under her win... They do have difference, such as Elektra's wider range of techniques.. as for 

who is wiser, more clever... there's no ground to make such a claim, beyond your own beliefs, of course.

The point I am trying to make is...Elektra developed most of her time into being a Ninja. While focused on developing her H2H skills. Elektra didn't ONLY focus on her H2H skill, but Shiva did. Shiva put more effort into developing her H2H skills. That's the point I am trying to make.

 

When has Elektra trained Wolverine?

 

DD will see in Shiva what me, and others, are seeing, someone that reminds him of a certain deadly Ninja (meaning martial artist and assassin, just so you know) he's been acquainted with for years. An ambiguous character with her own code. Almost the same archetype. With similar personnalities. Which makes sense, they're both the top human female martial artists in their respective universes. That's why I'm comparing them.


I disagree with them having similar personalities. And Elketra struggled with Bullseye. I don't think she's Marvel's best Martial Artist if she struggles with Bullseye. Elektra is not even close to being the top female Marvel artist in Marvel. That title is only for Mantis and Gamora.

As for your last question towards DD and Bats, I can think of two options for you:

Read the cross over.

Email Bendis and ask him (I believe he was the author, though I could be wrong, and I'm lazy. Just email the damn writer, lol).

 

Was that crossover canon...Before you even say anything. Again you like others still haven't answered my question. What are Daredevil and Batman even in???



#84 thanosisawesome

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 07:39 PM

The vast majority of crossovers(with marvel and/or DC at least) are not canon to the main universes(616 for marvel).

I would go into detail on why Cap would win, easily, against Batman, but considering that I've already done that in a few other threads, with that exact topic, I really can't be arsed.

 


Wait... You're listing who Daredevil has defeated, but you're listing who Shiva has lost to?  How exactly does that give any kind of comparison?

Listing who the two have defeated, respectively, would make sense to a certain point. As would listing who they have each lost to.  But the way you're doing it, is like comparing apples and oranges.  Not to mention that no context is given, for any of the mentioned fights on either side.

 

People also seem to be forgetting, that Daredevil is the protagonist of his own title, while Shiva is not even a primary villain.

 

As to not derail this thread, can you link me to a thread where you explain how Ca would easily win? Just wondering.



#85 force_echo

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:29 PM

The vast majority of crossovers(with marvel and/or DC at least) are not canon to the main universes(616 for marvel).

I would go into detail on why Cap would win, easily, against Batman, but considering that I've already done that in a few other threads, with that exact topic, I really can't be arsed.

 


Wait... You're listing who Daredevil has defeated, but you're listing who Shiva has lost to?  How exactly does that give any kind of comparison?

Listing who the two have defeated, respectively, would make sense to a certain point. As would listing who they have each lost to.  But the way you're doing it, is like comparing apples and oranges.  Not to mention that no context is given, for any of the mentioned fights on either side.

 

People also seem to be forgetting, that Daredevil is the protagonist of his own title, while Shiva is not even a primary villain.

 

I was making the point that Daredevil has beaten Marvel's top fighters to counter his point of "Daredevil isn't even considered a top 5 fighter in Marvel" (which is a weak point to begin with) and I was also pointing out that Lady Shiva doesn't exactly have a spotless record either, as he was insinuating she did, or at least, more so than Daredevil. Also, I'm not forgetting that fact, I mentioned it directly. Daredevil by far, has more experience than Lady Shiva due to that reason.

 

Shiva beat Supergirl. Really. Symbiote Spider-Man beat Firelord, who could probably beat Supergirl, and Daredevil beat Symbiote Spider-Man, so Daredevil can beat Supergirl.

 

Also, Daredevil definitely "comes close" to Richard Dragon. And I don't care what you say about Tim Drake, whether it was a training exercise or whatever. Either way, she was outsmarted, unprepared, and underestimated her opponent. It doesn't matter if the feat is "non-repeatable", you only have to kill someone once. Daredevil will take her down.



#86 sirmethos

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:33 PM

"The point I am trying to make is...Elektra developed most of her time into being a Ninja. While focused on developing her H2H skills. Elektra didn't ONLY focus on her H2H skill, but Shiva did. Shiva put more effort into developing her H2H skills. That's the point I am trying to make."

Yea, and your point is essentially bullsh*t.  Coming from either not knowing what you're talking about, or simply pulling stuff out your arse.

 

"When has Elektra trained Wolverine?"

Among other times, after the whole incident with the Dark Riders trying to give Wolverine his Adamantium skeleton back, when he went feral.  He went to Elektra for help and re-training.

 

"I disagree with them having similar personalities. And Elketra struggled with Bullseye. I don't think she's Marvel's best Martial Artist if she struggles with Bullseye. Elektra is not even close to being the top female Marvel artist in Marvel. That title is only for Mantis and Gamora."

Elektra is the top female on Earth.  But it's true that she is not the top female martial artist in the entire Marvel universe.  But then again, Shiva isn't the top female if you include the entire DC universe either.

 

 

As to not derail this thread, can you link me to a thread where you explain how Ca would easily win? Just wondering.

EF has a very nice Search function. Try using it.

Google is a good alternative, if you don't want to use the Search function.



#87 bigballerju

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:39 PM

I'm glad people are adding more to my arguements on how good Elektra and Daredevil are. 



#88 Darxeth

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:47 PM

I was making the point that Daredevil has beaten Marvel's top fighters to counter his point of "Daredevil isn't even considered a top 5 fighter in Marvel" (which is a weak point to begin with) and I was also pointing out that Lady Shiva doesn't exactly have a spotless record either, as he was insinuating she did, or at least, more so than Daredevil. Also, I'm not forgetting that fact, I mentioned it directly. Daredevil by far, has more experience than Lady Shiva due to that reason.

Shiva beat Supergirl. Really. Symbiote Spider-Man beat Firelord, who could probably beat Supergirl, and Daredevil beat Symbiote Spider-Man, so Daredevil can beat Supergirl.

Also, Daredevil definitely "comes close" to Richard Dragon. And I don't care what you say about Tim Drake, whether it was a training exercise or whatever. Either way, she was outsmarted, unprepared, and underestimated her opponent. It doesn't matter if the feat is "non-repeatable", you only have to kill someone once. Daredevil will take her down.


abc logic doesn't work. Shiva beat Supergirl. Correct.
Spiderman has defeated DD a LOT more than DD has defeated him, without PIS, (which is what Spidey beating firelord was and DD beating Spiderman was). IIRC, Spiderman kicked DDs ass in Civil War. The fight was only like one panel, thats how quickly Spiderman beat him.

So waving around PIS feats like DD beating Spiderman isn't impressive at all.

Every martial artists worth their salt in the DC universe (to my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong) is eager to train with Shiva because of how much of a prominent martial artist she is. Can the same be said for DD, whos own teacher still deems him "sloppy?"

#89 KidStranglehold

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:03 PM

Yea, and your point is essentially bullsh*t.  Coming from either not knowing what you're talking about, or simply pulling stuff out your arse.

Elaborate please. 

 

Among other times, after the whole incident with the Dark Riders trying to give Wolverine his Adamantium skeleton back, when he went feral.  He went to Elektra for help and re-training.

Okay.

 

Elektra is the top female on Earth.  But it's true that she is not the top female martial artist in the entire Marvel universe.  But then again, Shiva isn't the top female if you include the entire DC universe either.

 

That was my point in the first place. 



#90 KidStranglehold

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:07 PM

And I don't care what you say about Tim Drake, whether it was a training exercise or whatever. Either way, she was outsmarted, unprepared, and underestimated her opponent. It doesn't matter if the feat is "non-repeatable", you only have to kill someone once. Daredevil will take her down.

If you count that as a win then whatever. I can't change your mind. When Shiva was actually training him,  even giving him advice and not going all out on him.

 

No Shiva did not underestimate him..She actually told Tim that people will underestimate him due to his size. 

 

The only advantage DD has on Shiva is his equipment and radar senses. I actually gave round one to him. Shiva too can take DD down.



#91 bigballerju

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:07 PM

When was the last time Stick called Daredevil sloppy? How long ago was that again? Daredevil is known for how prominent of a fighter he is and he has fought the best. He has defeated a few of them. I like how people want to bring up who Daredevil loses to but want to ignore who Shiva has lost too and her low feats. I still see people talking for Shiva seem to be ignoring Daredevil's good feats showing how skilled and good he is. People want to ignore Daredevil making a ass out of the Avengers, fighting Hulk, and the superior foes he has fought. The same thing goes for Elektra.

 

Methos probably called bullshit because you either don't know enough about Elektra or are ignoring what's been said about her. But I have already told you about Elektra's skills and abilities. 

 

As far as Lady Shiva. I love the fact you want to ignore both times Tim Drake beat Lady Shiva but bring up a feat like Lady Shiva embarrassing Supergirl. If your gone bring up feats like that then you better accept feats like her losing as well.



#92 KidStranglehold

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:15 PM

As far as Lady Shiva. I love the fact you want to ignore both times Tim Drake beat Lady Shiva but bring up a feat like Lady Shiva beating Supergirl.

 

Its funny you talk about people ignoring stuff, when you guys are the ones ignoring the  context of the scans between Shiva and Tim. Again the first time Shiva was training Tim and Shiva wasn't even serious or was trying to really hurt him. The second time Tim was enhanced. Both are irrelevant. So who's ignoring what? We brought up Supergirl because you guys tried to bring up Shivas losts and DD wins. 



#93 KidStranglehold

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:18 PM

Methos probably called bullshit because you either don't know enough about Elektra or are ignoring what's been said about her. But I have already told you about Elektra's skills and abilities. 

 

 

I can't care what Methos or anyone said. I already said this million times that I was only comparing the fighting skills of Elektra and Shiva, not any other other Elketra's abilities. I ONLY said Shiva is a way better martial artist than Elketra. You and others were the ones that brought up stuff like Elektra's mental abilities. Again this fight will mostly be H2H, especially the second round.

 

And I already told you about the situation between Tim and Shiva.



#94 bigballerju

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:29 PM

Its funny you talk about people ignoring stuff, when you guys are the ones ignoring the  context of the scans between Shiva and Tim. Again the first time Shiva was training Tim and Shiva wasn't even serious or was trying to really hurt him. The second time Tim was enhanced. Both are irrelevant. So who's ignoring what? We brought up Supergirl because you guys tried to bring up Shivas losts and DD wins. 

Shiva losts were brought up because you guys kept downplaying Daredevil and Elektra ignoring how good they are. Yea you seem incapable of grasping the fact in there final sparr match after training Tim Drake had to beat Lady Shiva to see how skilled he had become under her training. Just because it wasn't to the death doesn't mean Lady Shiva didn't give Tim Drake a hard fight. She did and Tim Drake won. 


I am not ignoring anything. If you paid attention to my whole posts before I mentioned the fact Tim Drake beat Lady Shiva because of the drug. I even said I wouldn't count it. I brought it up by the way because it showed you how Shiva would lose to someone who was that much faster then her and more.

 

 

 

I can't care what Methos or anyone said. I already said this million times that I was only comparing the fighting skills of Elektra and Shiva, not any other other Elketra's abilities. I ONLY said Shiva is a way better martial artist than Elketra. You and others were the ones that brought up stuff like Elektra's mental abilities. Again this fight will mostly be H2H, especially the second round.

 

And I already told you about the situation between Tim and Shiva.


You weren't comparing anything. You showed lack of knowledge on Elektra and people were informing you of how truly skilled she is. You also downplayed both Elektra and Daredevil. Something me and others informed you about as well. We continue to inform you how skilled Elektra and Daredevil are.



#95 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:36 PM

It's the quality of the abilities that matter, not the quantity.
Shiva is superior to Elektra and DD skillwise and she is more insightful, ruthless, wise, and experienced.

 

I notice you list wisdom and insight as skills of Shiva's. While these are very useful for someone like a teacher, a counselor, or a religious professional I don't understand how they would be of any use in winning a fight.

 

You've said that Shiva is more experienced than either DD or Elektra. Experience means that she's been in more fights and learned from them. But we have seen DD fight many more opponents than Shiva and he's been around longer.



#96 bigballerju

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:46 PM

I agree with Dinsdale. Another good point he made. Daredevil has fought Hulk, Wolverine, Punisher, Captain America, The Avengers. Mr.Hyde, Sabretooth, Bullseye, Black Panther, Iron-Fist, and more. 



#97 force_echo

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 10:04 PM

abc logic doesn't work. Shiva beat Supergirl. Correct.
Spiderman has defeated DD a LOT more than DD has defeated him, without PIS, (which is what Spidey beating firelord was and DD beating Spiderman was). IIRC, Spiderman kicked DDs ass in Civil War. The fight was only like one panel, thats how quickly Spiderman beat him.

So waving around PIS feats like DD beating Spiderman isn't impressive at all.

Every martial artists worth their salt in the DC universe (to my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong) is eager to train with Shiva because of how much of a prominent martial artist she is. Can the same be said for DD, whos own teacher still deems him "sloppy?"

 

Wow, you really didn't get the sarcasm in that.

 

No, actually, Spider-Man hasn't, unless you have proof to back up your claims. I also don't recall Spider-Man beating Daredevil in Civil War. Daredevil has beaten Spider-Man three times (although one was a weakened Spider-Man, so really twice), once with the Symbiote Suit on.

 

Lol. Wait a second. Shiva beating Supergirl is fine and dandy, but Daredevil beating Spider-Man? That's where it goes into PIS? Are you serious? Supergirl could ERADICATE Shiva with a flick of her finger, there's no freaking way that's not exorbitant PIS, unless there's something to the fight that you guys aren't telling me. The gap between Daredevil and Spider-Man is FAR smaller than the gap between Lady Shiva and Supergirl. I want to see the scans and the circumstances.

 

Yeah. Iron Fist probably being the prime example.



#98 KidStranglehold

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 10:06 PM

Shiva losts were brought up because you guys kept downplaying Daredevil and Elektra ignoring how good they are

Who the hell said I was downplaying or ignoring both Elektra and DD. I actually gave round one to DD. As for Elektra, I was ONLY focusing on her fighting skills. Its fact that Elektra's fighting skills are NOT on par with Shiva. But I never said Shiva was superior to Elektra overall...

 

. Yea you seem incapable of grasping the fact in there final sparr match after training Tim Drake had to beat Lady Shiva to see how skilled he had become under her training. Just because it wasn't to the death doesn't mean Lady Shiva didn't give Tim Drake a hard fight. She did and Tim Drake won. 

No..I am not incapable of grasping anything. You guys are the ones trying to use Shiva's fight with Tim as a low showing for Shiva. If you count that as a win for Tim. Whatever, but don't try to use it as Tim being a better fighter than Shiva or a low showing for Shiva. I wouldn't even call that PIS, because again Shiva wasn't even serious at all. 

 


I am not ignoring anything. If you paid attention to my whole posts before I mentioned the fact Tim Drake beat Lady Shiva because of the drug. I even said I wouldn't count it. I brought it up by the way because it showed you how Shiva would lose to someone who was that much faster then her and more.

 

I ALREADY seen that post and I even said that second fight with them was irrelevant. You guys atre keep thinking I am saying Shiva is overall superior to Elektra or someone. But really I was only talking about fighting skills. Which this match, especially round two will mostly be about. I know Shiva can lose to someone that's physically stronger than her. She can lose to Batman, due to Batmans intellgence and equipement. But the thing is nether Batman, Elektra or DD are better fighters/martial artiststhan Shiva.

 

Round 1-DD

 

Round 2-Shiva

 

Get what I am saying? 

 


You weren't comparing anything. You showed lack of knowledge on Elektra and people were informing you of how truly skilled she is. You also downplayed both Elektra and Daredevil. Something me and others informed you about as well. We continue to inform you how skilled Elektra and Daredevil are.

 

No one is downplaying anything. You guys are just missing mt point The fact is Shiva is more skilled than both Elketra and Daredevil when it comes to martial arts. She has practiced more styles than both Elektra and Daredevil and has actually completed most her training's. 

 

Lets take away Elektras abilities/powers, equipment and level her down to just peak human and only let her rely on her martial arts skills and let her fight Lady Shiva. Who would win? That's my point. No one is downplaying anything...Shiva is a better martial artist than Elektra and she has fought many top tier DC martial artists like Richard Dragon,David Cain, Cassandra Cain, Shadow Dragon,Nightwing, Batman,etc...

 

I'm going to bed.



#99 Darxeth

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 11:44 PM

Wow, you really didn't get the sarcasm in that.
 
No, actually, Spider-Man hasn't, unless you have proof to back up your claims. I also don't recall Spider-Man beating Daredevil in Civil War. Daredevil has beaten Spider-Man three times (although one was a weakened Spider-Man, so really twice), once with the Symbiote Suit on.
 
Lol. Wait a second. Shiva beating Supergirl is fine and dandy, but Daredevil beating Spider-Man? That's where it goes into PIS? Are you serious? Supergirl could ERADICATE Shiva with a flick of her finger, there's no freaking way that's not exorbitant PIS, unless there's something to the fight that you guys aren't telling me. The gap between Daredevil and Spider-Man is FAR smaller than the gap between Lady Shiva and Supergirl. I want to see the scans and the circumstances.
 
Yeah. Iron Fist probably being the prime example.



Shiva beating Supergirl is DEF PIS. I was being sarcastic also.

As far as Spiderman beating DD in Civil war, I'll post scans later.
I'd do it now, but I'm on my phone and it's easier to find the scans on a desktop.

#100 Oltobaz

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 12:03 AM

So, the discussion isn't over yet. Very good. A few comments.

 

1/ To Methos: While not canon, the cross overs have always portrayed Bats as a close match to Cap, even though the latter certainly had the upper hand. This "happened" at least three times, and is consistent with the way I, and others, would imagine the fight. You may have a different opinion, fair enough, but you're in the minority.

 

2/ To Strangler: Methos already answered you as far as Elektra and Logan. These issues came out in the 90's.

- Between her trainings and natural talent, Elektra is just as good as Shiva in h2h. Top MU marvel artists (humans) look up to her. In fact, she's feared and respected, pretty much the same way Shiva is. Logan needed her help, for crying out loud. Why you think they're so different personnality wise seems a little strange, in light of this discussion. I'm telling you, they're the same archetype. They have more similarities than differences.

 

3/ As for cross overs not being canons, of course they aren't. It doesn't mean we can't use them, it's not like this story was done by people who didn't grasp the characters, and their abilities. It's an American comic answering for us "what would happen if... Batman met DD", so it's certainly relevant in light of this discussion. Besides, when done well, these materials are sometimes more believable than canon stories who pit the Black Panther against the Silver Surfer, I think you get the idea. It doesn't really matter whether it's canon or not, they're not fanfics either or anything, and, besides, who's to say these cross over stories don't happen in their own private corner of the Multiverse? Still, let's just say it's a believable non canon story that you should read this instant.






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