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Lady Shiva vs Daredevil


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#61 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:11 PM

I don't think DD vs. Cap bears on this at all. He's a completely different kind of fighter than Shiva. 

 

When Iron Fist first fought Captain America he said: "His technique is basic but his speed and power are incredible."

 

Shiva is very strong for someone her size, but her strength is nothing compared to Cap's. She's closer to him in speed but I'd bet on his reflexes over hers and he's certainly a much faster runner. Cap's fighting style is a little like DD's in that it relies heavily on acrobatics and being in constant motion. 

 

Fighting a big, strong man with basic technique and an eclectic / acrobatic style is so different than fighting a small woman with highly sophisticated techniques that I don't think you can learn much from one that applies to the other.



#62 AVP vs The Terminator

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:15 PM

I was only participating in the whole "Shiva >>> Elektra" thing. As you may have guessed, I disagree. Still, it has no bearing on Shiva vs DD so... BAI

#63 Darxeth

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:18 PM

Fair enough gentlemen.



#64 Oltobaz

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:31 PM

A lot of you are missing the point.

 

Daredevil is inconsistent. Which is why I keep repeating the same things over and over, in an attempt to allow you to realize that for yourselves.

 

Shiva knows how to win consistently, which is important..

DD is skilled at fighting, just not as Skilled as Shiva by a wide margin.

Shiva is more ruthless than DD.

She is wiser thand DD.

She is good at improvising, although not as good.

She is more insightful than DD.

She is more experienced than DD.

She's defeated people who are far more athletic than herself, so DD's athleticism is moot.

 

 

Regardless how the fight was going, the end result was the same. Cap won. Period.

DD couldn't even pick himself up off of the ground. 

And no, Cap wouldn't "kick Batman's ass" in a straight up h2h fight. It'd be close, and Cap would win, but he wouldn't dominate him.

 

As far as DD vs Shiva, I could refer you to posts I already made, I certainly don't see things going the same way. Cap against DD, in these scans, demonstrate nothing, DD being at a bigger disadvantage than Cap in this particular fights. Other fights have shown DD fighting Cap to a standstill, battling several Avengers all at once, standing his own against Doom, etc...  



#65 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:35 PM

Heh just for the record, Elektra is not the best female martial artist. Gamora/Mantis etc come to mind. Now as for female human martial artists...she's up there.

Just saiyan. Carry on.

#66 Oltobaz

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:36 PM

Yes, I'm well aware of Gamora, which is why I only referred Elektra as the best human female. Mantis was pretty tough too, but Gamora is supposed to be the "most dangerous woman in the galaxy". They could have pit them against each other, during the Skrulls saga maybe, might have been a good read.



#67 Darxeth

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:40 PM

As far as DD vs Shiva, I could refer you to posts I already made, I certainly don't see things going the same way. Cap against DD, in these scans, demonstrate nothing, DD being at a bigger disadvantage than Cap in this particular fights. Other fights have shown DD fighting Cap to a standstill, battling several Avengers all at once, standing his own against Doom, etc...  

 

 

 

DD is skilled at fighting, just not as Skilled as Shiva by a wide margin.

Shiva is more ruthless than DD.

She is wiser than DD.

She is good at improvising, although not as good.

She is more insightful than DD.

She is more experienced than DD.

She's defeated people who are far more athletic than herself, so DD's athleticism is moot.



#68 Dark Spider-man

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:44 PM

Heh just for the record, Elektra is not the best female martial artist. Gamora/Mantis etc come to mind. Now as for female human martial artists...she's up there.

Just saiyan. Carry on.

True dat, sir and Moondragon too.



#69 thanosisawesome

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:55 PM

Captain America would by no means stomp Batman in pure h2h. He would win, but it would be extremely tough.



#70 Oltobaz

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:56 PM

DD is skilled at fighting, just not as Skilled as Shiva by a wide margin.

Shiva is more ruthless than DD.

She is wiser than DD.

She is good at improvising, although not as good.

She is more insightful than DD.

She is more experienced than DD.

She's defeated people who are far more athletic than herself, so DD's athleticism is moot.

She's not more insightful, and she's not wiser either. Let's just say they have different appreciations of the world, and leave it at that. As for your other remarks, I can't help but notice you quoted yourself. I'll return the courtesy, and shall refer you to post # 29, paragraph #3. Food for thought.



#71 Oltobaz

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:59 PM

Captain America would by no means stomp Batman in pure h2h. He would win, but it would be extremely tough.

 

Agreed. Bruce himself would agree, if we're to look at the cross overs. Definitely not a stomp.



#72 thanosisawesome

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 03:08 PM

Agreed. Bruce himself would agree, if we're to look at the cross overs. Definitely not a stomp.

 

We agree, but remember, crossovers aren't canon. And give Batman gadgets, it's a whole 'nother story.



#73 bigballerju

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 03:19 PM

DD is skilled at fighting, just not as Skilled as Shiva by a wide margin.

Shiva is more ruthless than DD.

She is wiser than DD.

She is good at improvising, although not as good.

She is more insightful than DD.

She is more experienced than DD.

She's defeated people who are far more athletic than herself, so DD's athleticism is moot.

Daredevil can be ruthless when he needs to be. His fights with Punisher, Wolverine, Bullseye,and others show that. As far as more insightful that's debatable and the same thing for smarter since Daredevil has defeated more powerful foes. Foes like members of the Sinister Six and Mr.Hyde where being smart in those battles is required for sure. Your correct on everything else though. So I will give you that.

 

We agree, but remember, crossovers aren't canon. And give Batman gadgets, it's a whole 'nother story.

JLA vs Avengers is canon Pre-Flashpoint. That's the main and official one we know of.



#74 Oltobaz

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 03:21 PM

To Thanos is Awesome:

 

They're what if stories, essentially, with characters used in characters, from the very people who write said characters in canon stories, so we can base our observations on these. It's the closest thing to canon we're gonna get anyways. 

 

I certainly agree, give Bats access to his utility belt and things get more even, though, to be fair, Steve should have access to his shield as well. As far as pure h2h, Cap would win, after a long, exhausting fight, even for a Super Soldier such as he.



#75 Darxeth

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 03:33 PM

This is what I love about this site.
There's no hostility between most of the users.
We're all just debating things and yeah, some of us disagree with each other, but we're all civilized.
Good deal.

#76 force_echo

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 04:30 PM

Cool story. Lady Shiva wins, despite being able to hand DD his own ass Skill-wise, the Shiva is more ruthless and more experienced. And in h2h combat, experience helps more so than raw intelligence. I'd like to see DD outsmart her.

 

You have literally no basis in saying that Shiva is more skilled than Daredevil, and she's most definitely not more experienced. Daredevil was beaten by Cap because he had already been in an extremely stressful fight that pushed him to his limits, and he was actively trying not to hurt Captain America. Daredevil's beaten Captain America before. Captain America is also even with Batman in H2H ala JLA/Avengers, so it's not like he was going up against freaking Tim Drake. Daredevil also has the physical and tactical edge.



#77 Darxeth

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 04:48 PM

Batman is slightly more skilled at h2h than DD, and Lady Shiva is marginally more skilled than Batman.

When people think of Marvel's top 5 martial artists, DD isn't on the list at all.
When people think of DC's top martial artist, Lady Shiva is often regarded as the most skilled.

And yes, she def. Has more experience.
She's consistently doing well against martial artists near her level, despite very few mishaps. while DD is so inconsistent that it's hard to pinpoint his skill level. Sure, he's done well against BP and Cap and Iron Fist but he's oftentimes defeated by people considerably less skilled than himself.

#78 thanosisawesome

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 04:51 PM

You have literally no basis in saying that Shiva is more skilled than Daredevil, and she's most definitely not more experienced. Daredevil was beaten by Cap because he had already been in an extremely stressful fight that pushed him to his limits, and he was actively trying not to hurt Captain America. Daredevil's beaten Captain America before. Captain America is also even with Batman in H2H ala JLA/Avengers, so it's not like he was going up against freaking Tim Drake. Daredevil also has the physical and tactical edge.

 

Well, here would be my basis. We know that Shiva is on the same level of fighters like Batman and Cassandra Cain. According to Iron Fist in Shadowland, Daredevil uses a combination of irish boxing and ju jitsu. I believe that Shiva's body reading and Daredevil's senses would cancel each other out. So Shiva would easily counter such a mundane style as boxing, and she has plenty of styles to throw at Daredevil. 



#79 force_echo

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 05:37 PM

Batman is slightly more skilled at h2h than DD, and Lady Shiva is marginally more skilled than Batman.

When people think of Marvel's top 5 martial artists, DD isn't on the list at all.
When people think of DC's top martial artist, Lady Shiva is often regarded as the most skilled.

And yes, she def. Has more experience.
She's consistently doing well against martial artists near her level, despite very few mishaps. while DD is so inconsistent that it's hard to pinpoint his skill level. Sure, he's done well against BP and Cap and Iron Fist but he's oftentimes defeated by people considerably less skilled than himself.

 

Do you have anything to back up the claim that Batman's more skilled than Daredevil?

I'm sorry, but your own perception on "who's on the list" has absolutely no relevance in the debate at all. The fact is that Daredevil's fought and beaten Marvel's top martial artists. If there's a person he hasn't beaten on the top list, it's because Daredevil hasn't fought him or her.

 

Are you serious? Daredevil's fought so many more superpowered/master martial artists than Shiva that it's not even funny. the experience factor goes to him by a LARGE margin. And when has Daredevil been beaten by people less skilled than himself? Anyone who's beaten him, he's returned in kind at some point or another. Also, Lady Shiva simply hasn't been in as many fights as Daredevil (has she ever had her own series even?) so of course her record's going to be more consistent. That's like saying someone who's won 1 out of 1 boxing match is better than someone who's won 47 out of 50, just because 100% is greater than 94%.

 

And who has Lady Shiva beaten? You want to compare her records to the best martial artists in DC? She's lost to Cassandra Cain twice, Batman, Tim Drake, David Cain, Cheshire, Prometheus, Victor Sage, and Richard Dragon. Daredevil's beaten Captain America, Wolverine, Iron Fist, Black Panther, The Punisher, Spider-Man (including once with the symbiote suit), etc.



#80 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 05:44 PM

When people think of DC's top martial artist, Lady Shiva is often regarded as the most skilled.


*cough* Val Armorr *cough*




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