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Lady Shiva vs Daredevil


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#201 bigballerju

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:31 PM

Both have speed of the same caliber, but Batman is also stronger, more durable, and has better equipment. And about equal technique.

Your clearly being biased and the debate might as well be over with you vs others. Batman does not have speed near superhuman levels like Daredevil and no you have not shown it.  This isn't the first time you have been biased towards Batman in matches. Also more durable? Are you joking? Daredevil takes multiple hits from Hulk, Mr.Hyde, Omega Red, and more. Oh and he actually fights them. Like I said there is no point continuing. Good day.  This Lady Shiva vs Daredevil debates seems to be pretty much over anyways.



#202 Oltobaz

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:46 PM

To Thanos:

 

- They're roughly equal in terms of physical speed, yet, DD's hyper senses hence better reflexes and reaction time make a big difference. He's faster than Batman. Put it this way, Bats is more durable thanks to his costume he's using as protection, something DD doesn't really require. That should tell you something.

- As for fighting techniques, you're correct, up until you factor in DD's hyper senses. Not saying Bats wouldn't put up a fight, but DD's got the advantage here. 

- DD's senses will counter most of Bats equipment, easy. 



#203 baneblade

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 12:07 AM

Your clearly being biased and the debate might as well be over with you vs others. Batman does not have speed near superhuman levels like Daredevil and no you have not shown it.  This isn't the first time you have been biased towards Batman in matches. Also more durable? Are you joking? Daredevil takes multiple hits from Hulk, Mr.Hyde, Omega Red, and more. Oh and he actually fights them. Like I said there is no point continuing. Good day.  This Lady Shiva vs Daredevil debates seems to be pretty much over anyways.

Bro, Bats avoided a super powered imp disguised as Manhunter, upclose range too. He has also tussled with multiple amazons during the lame Amazons Attack crossover. Just to cite 2 examples.



#204 baneblade

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 12:24 AM

It seems everyone here that is discussing Bats and DD is avoiding a few things altogether, for convenience sake, or not.

 

1 - Bats is a genius, DD is not. Bats will figure out DD's blind and relying on his senses, whivh like Superman's are possibly heightened

2 - Bats training affords him to simply vanish from a fight, if he wants to. This is especially possible in a 1 on 1 scenario

3 - DD has never faced a smarter opponent than Bats. Go on and name an opponent DD faced that took down several amazonian level fighters at a time

4 - Bats took down Bronze Tiger, and the General in one outing, disguised as Matches. He had minimal equipment at the time too. Tell me DD has faced opponents the caliber of the General and Bronze Tiger in one go and taken them down. 

5 - Bats faced off against the General in closed quarters, and while it was impossible to beat him, he lasted a good time to allow back up to roll in. Show me a character at the level of the General, who DD has faced. And please don;t even try with Hulk, as Hulk was a mindless beast and all.

In the regard of the last point, I clearly remember other debates in which certain folks on this very post called Bats outing with Hulk in the early tears PIS. Even discarded it. Now, the same folks are stepping up to the plate and quoting DD accomplishing Superhuman feats and not batting an eyelid doing it? Seems a tad bit hypocritical to me. I am not saying I discard the feats. I have to accept major PIS since it is on print.

I also know that folks will come up with examples and 'push' them as fighters equal to General or Tiger, or Bane, or a trained band of amazons, who each have superhuman reflex and abilities.

By the way, General took on Superman, Orion and Manhunter, all at once. Go ahead and top it folks.



#205 xLEGACYx

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 06:02 AM

I would just like to show an analysis I completely agree with

 

http://www.comicvine...il/1100-146251/

 

If Batman wins, Shiva destroys



#206 thanosisawesome

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 06:26 AM

Your clearly being biased and the debate might as well be over with you vs others. Batman does not have speed near superhuman levels like Daredevil and no you have not shown it.  This isn't the first time you have been biased towards Batman in matches. Also more durable? Are you joking? Daredevil takes multiple hits from Hulk, Mr.Hyde, Omega Red, and more. Oh and he actually fights them. Like I said there is no point continuing. Good day.  This Lady Shiva vs Daredevil debates seems to be pretty much over anyways.

 

 

I'll admit it, I like Batman. But I admit it when he's beat. And since I posted scan easily on par with DD, I have backed up everything. Dodging a sniper bullet coming at his back?  Completely unimpressive or PIS. But when Daredevil does something humanely impossible, he's a badass. Yes, he has radar sense. But it would still be ridiculously impossible to deflect bullets back at a gun. But since I hold all characters to the same standard, unlike you and Force, I admit those feats are valid. And if you want to talk about that Hulk scan, then I guess Batman is strong enough to make Darkseid bleed with a kick, so Batman tears him in half? Yeah, I'M the one who is biased here.



#207 skadoosh

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 08:59 AM

Both have speed of the same caliber, but Batman is also stronger, more durable, and has better equipment. And about equal technique.

 

They are roughly equal in strength, speed, durability, etc, but Daredevil has more feats to suggest that he superior in those categories. Mostly because Batman often fights very stealthily and smartly, avoiding hits and using plans and gadgets to win, whereas Daredevil is more of a hands-on fighter. Their techniques are very different, other than both using martial arts. Batman does have far superior equipment, he is a lot smarter and richer than Daredevil, after all, but Daredevil has superhuman senses, giving him his own entire set of tricks.



#208 force_echo

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 12:00 PM

Both have speed of the same caliber, but Batman is also stronger, more durable, and has better equipment. And about equal technique.

Daredevil is definitely faster. You haven't shown that Batman's stronger either. Daredevil broke the arm off of Diamond Absorbing Man with a wrecking ball, flipped a limo, and curled 400 pounds with no effort, and hurled it like a goddamn javelin to take out two guys. Show me Batman strength feats on par with that.



#209 force_echo

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 12:33 PM

It seems everyone here that is discussing Bats and DD is avoiding a few things altogether, for convenience sake, or not.

 

1 - Bats is a genius, DD is not. Bats will figure out DD's blind and relying on his senses, whivh like Superman's are possibly heightened

2 - Bats training affords him to simply vanish from a fight, if he wants to. This is especially possible in a 1 on 1 scenario

3 - DD has never faced a smarter opponent than Bats. Go on and name an opponent DD faced that took down several amazonian level fighters at a time

4 - Bats took down Bronze Tiger, and the General in one outing, disguised as Matches. He had minimal equipment at the time too. Tell me DD has faced opponents the caliber of the General and Bronze Tiger in one go and taken them down. 

5 - Bats faced off against the General in closed quarters, and while it was impossible to beat him, he lasted a good time to allow back up to roll in. Show me a character at the level of the General, who DD has faced. And please don;t even try with Hulk, as Hulk was a mindless beast and all.

In the regard of the last point, I clearly remember other debates in which certain folks on this very post called Bats outing with Hulk in the early tears PIS. Even discarded it. Now, the same folks are stepping up to the plate and quoting DD accomplishing Superhuman feats and not batting an eyelid doing it? Seems a tad bit hypocritical to me. I am not saying I discard the feats. I have to accept major PIS since it is on print.

I also know that folks will come up with examples and 'push' them as fighters equal to General or Tiger, or Bane, or a trained band of amazons, who each have superhuman reflex and abilities.

By the way, General took on Superman, Orion and Manhunter, all at once. Go ahead and top it folks.

 

1- Probably true.

 

2- Not with DD's super senses, he isn't "vanishing" anywhere. DD could literally hear him a mile away if he wanted to.

 

3- Amazonian Warriors are not that impressive at all. They're about 10 times stronger than a human female, and they possess heightened speed and endurance past the normal human male or female, so about as fast as Batman or something. Daredevil's fought Spider-Man numerous times, I'm fairly sure he could take out quite a bit of Amazonian warriors. Daredevil also beat 100 Yakuza in the span of 3 minutes with his walking cane. Despite being some of the best assassin's money can buy, and them taking MGH, giving them superhuman strength, speed, stamina, etc. Also, they had guns. Also, Daredevil hasn't beaten anyone smart or as smart as Batman? Try Punisher.

 

4- How did Batman take down the General and Bronze Tiger simultaneously? I'm calling Bullshit on that one, especially since Bronze Tiger's taken down Batman by himself before. You got a scan or issue number or something?

 

5- Is losing to the General a feat? Also, the General isn't a tactical genius or anything in his enhanced physical form, against his fight with the JLA his "strategy" consisted of punching them. A lot. Exactly like Hulk. Also, Daredevil's fought Namor, on the coast. As in, right next to the ocean, so a fully hydrated Namor.



#210 thanosisawesome

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 12:37 PM

Daredevil is definitely faster. You haven't shown that Batman's stronger either. Daredevil broke the arm off of Diamond Absorbing Man with a wrecking ball, flipped a limo, and curled 400 pounds with no effort, and hurled it like a goddamn javelin to take out two guys. Show me Batman strength feats on par with that.

 

Yeah, just ignore my scans. Whatever. And as for strength, challenge accepted.

 

batodyssey2-legpress2.jpg

 

batbars_halloween.jpg

 

batree.jpg

 

batbazooka6.jpg

 

That should be enough for now. But there is also the famous benching 1000 pounds as part of a daily workout. And I can post more if these fail to impress.



#211 force_echo

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 12:49 PM

  1. 1. The point still stands that you don't have to be a better boxer/martial artist to train someone else in boxing/martial arts, as I've shown. Bruce Lee/ Muhammed Ali/ Anderson Silva/George if they fought whoever trained them, both at their peaks, the student would win, just as Batman beat Shiva, just as Cain beat Shiva.                                                                                                                                                                                       You don't, and I never said it either. While you are trying to substantiate a point using any and all factors; you are missing some factors there as well. Factors like, there are varying degree of trainers. Those that just train. Others who are in the thick of it, and at their physical peak. Those are few, but they exist. You deliberate and I will say, rather incorrectly bro, that Bruce Lee or Ali, at their peaks, would lose to their students? You do know that the standards set by Ali and Lee while debated upon by haters, still stand to this day where professionals and amateurs alike regard their set standards as measuring rods? Even when I look at present day boxers, with regards to agility, aversion, footwork, stamina, and in ring manouvering; yes, they do not compare to Ali's style. Same goes for Lee; current martial artists, in several martial arts publications, acknowledge Lee’s martial arts prowess and how no one has really reached the standard, not even those who have followed in Lee’s self-styled/created art. With these exceptions, you could always argue, that a student training directly under Ali, when he was the greatest boxer, and lee when he was at his peak, WILL beat him; and you are entitled to your opinion. It however, isn’t logically sound. At their peaks, I give their students no chance. Yes, down the line, after an year, the ballgame is new, not the same.

 

2. Nope, I don't know what you're talking about honestly. And I wasn't being sarcastic, I was being 100% serious.

 

 Alright bro. Judomaster: expert in Judo.  Bane : Judo skills nil., but excels farther in his own skill-set, which is essentially an amalgam of fighting styles. Bane > Judomaster. Even if Judo master knows Judo, him teaching Bane judo is redundant, as Bane is already above him in every other way. Same way, any ‘Master’ level or Sensei level individual will not seek to train from a novice, who may weild one skill the Master doesn’t. Because in fighting, the parts are always greater than the whole. Thereby, (in my take) any ‘Master” > novice, no matter what the novice wields as a skill.

 

3. A bunch of Daredevil's foes are pretty damn smart, a lot smarter than Shiva, that's for sure. She's never shown tactical ability. Daredevil is also more physically capable, has more experience, range, weapons, etc. Even if they're even in raw skill there's literally no possible way Shiva can win this. And Victor Sage beat Shiva in a Brightest Day spinoff. Also, Shiva hasn't beaten the caliber of opponents Daredevil has. Daredevil who's beaten every top martial artist the MU has to offer and who regularly fights outside of his weight class, power wise.

 

Bro, what you are repeatedly missing is the part where they face off in the dojo. No terrain/ledge/corner luxury, no wrecking ball, no surrounding advantage. You are getting that once Shiva figures out DD’s blind, and have extra senses after the first battle; he will have to contend with mostly what is silence. Not saying it is forgone, but I will deduce on it. There are things which she will accomplish in closed quarters of a plain surfaced silent dojo, that DD will have a hard time picking up. Also, DD’s opponents do not top Bats, or Cain, or Cassandra Cain. Now, of course, you will argue the opinion, and you have before on other matches involving either Bats or DD.  I know you have been commenting on set skills; reflexes, bullet timing, etc. No matter which way you throw it, there is no smarter opponent than Batman, and if Cassandra Cain can give him a run for his money, whether on panel or in words, then she is an opponent like none Daredevil has faced. If there is, go ahead and list em’. Ironfist or Bullseye, or Elektras are not it.

 

1. Except Muhammed Ali and Lee didn't really have students. Also, by your point, Lady Shiva was only better than Bats and Cain at the point of when she trained them. She trained Bats when he was a shadow of his former self. She trained Cain when she didn't have her body reading ability. That's not impressive whatsoever. I'm fairly sure Daredevil could beat both simultaneously at that point in time.

 

2. No, that's not true at all. Just because Bane can beat Judomaster using other techniques doesn't mean he has no use for Judo. What if he's fighting in another situation where Judo is more optimal than whatever he uses? Such as when he fights someone substantially bigger than him, a situation where Judo is optimized I think.

 

3. I'm talking about the first fight, where you said Shiva would win. Which is not true at all. The second fight, I still think goes to Daredevil because of his greater physicality even if him and Shiva are close in skill. What are you talking about? First of all, there's nothing saying that Shiva's smart enough to pick up on the fact that he's blind. Second of all, she can't be silent. Her heart's still beating, and as softly as she steps and moves, Daredevil can still hear it. He can smell the sweat on her body and make an image of her. He can feel the displacement of the air when she moves. No once can "silence" themselves from Daredevil.

 

Iron Fist is more skilled than Cain or Batman, he's literally infinitely skilled. Plus he's far superhuman with chi-enhancement, he's also beaten Ghostface (a person who beat Shang Chi in like 3 panels) and a mind-controlled Elektra simultaneously. So that takes care of Cain. Also, Batman isn't that impressive tactically, he's more of a strategy guy. If anything, the Punisher's better or equal, and Daredevil's beaten him 2-3 times. Added to that, one stalemate, and one time where Punisher beat Daredevil.



#212 thanosisawesome

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 12:53 PM

1. Except Muhammed Ali and Lee didn't really have students. Also, by your point, Lady Shiva was only better than Bats and Cain at the point of when she trained them. She trained Bats when he was a shadow of his former self. She trained Cain when she didn't have her body reading ability. That's not impressive whatsoever. I'm fairly sure Daredevil could beat both simultaneously at that point in time.

 

2. No, that's not true at all. Just because Bane can beat Judomaster using other techniques doesn't mean he has no use for Judo. What if he's fighting in another situation where Judo is more optimal than whatever he uses? Such as when he fights someone substantially bigger than him, a situation where Judo is optimized I think.

 

3. I'm talking about the first fight, where you said Shiva would win. Which is not true at all. The second fight, I still think goes to Daredevil because of his greater physicality even if him and Shiva are close in skill. What are you talking about? First of all, there's nothing saying that Shiva's smart enough to pick up on the fact that he's blind. Second of all, she can't be silent. Her heart's still beating, and as softly as she steps and moves, Daredevil can still hear it. He can smell the sweat on her body and make an image of her. He can feel the displacement of the air when she moves. No once can "silence" themselves from Daredevil.

 

Iron Fist is more skilled than Cain or Batman, he's literally infinitely skilled. Plus he's far superhuman with chi-enhancement, he's also beaten Ghostface (a person who beat Shang Chi in like 3 panels) and a mind-controlled Elektra simultaneously. So that takes care of Cain. Also, Batman isn't that impressive tactically, he's more of a strategy guy. If anything, the Punisher's better or equal, and Daredevil's beaten him 2-3 times. Added to that, one stalemate, and one time where Punisher beat Daredevil.

 

We disagree on the Batman and DD, but after seeing your DD scans, I think that he can beat Shiva. If Batman could do it, DD could probably do it.



#213 force_echo

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:04 PM

 I said all BUT the first scan. And an armored Mr. Freeze is  much harder to move than Spider-Man. And all it takes is a bit of depth perception to see that Batman dodged the bullet. It's that simple. There is nothing to suggest that he anticipated the bullet. I don't know why you say it is impossible when I constantly post proof. The scan earlier in the thread. Gunman shoots, Batman matrix-stlye ducks under the bullets. I have posted enough proof that puts him on Daredevil's level.

 

The scan says says he anticipated the bullet and that's how he was able to dodge it. And Daredevil knocked Spider-Man's entire body out of the path from about 10 feet away. Batman was right next to him and could have just jerked his head to the left. The scan basically says that the bullet was travelling too fast for him to react to it, that's the point. You've given me 0 scans on par with Daredevil saving Spider-Man from a sniper shot, or the first scan I showed, or Daredevil able to bat a bullet back so precisely it actually shot the gun out of the shooter's hand. Everyone agrees that the scans posted on Daredevil are far more impressive.

 

As for your strength feats. None of those come close to breaking diamond with a wrought iron wrecking ball. Or even flipping a limo full of people for that matter. Daredevil's bent steel bars too, and he's punched through a brick used to block his punch by Bullseye. He's also thrown his baton through the steel reinforced highly-bulletproof window of an armored car (all Punisher's Rocket Launcher did was to tip it over slightly). Try again.



#214 thanosisawesome

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:32 PM

The scan says says he anticipated the bullet and that's how he was able to dodge it. And Daredevil knocked Spider-Man's entire body out of the path from about 10 feet away. Batman was right next to him and could have just jerked his head to the left. The scan basically says that the bullet was travelling too fast for him to react to it, that's the point. You've given me 0 scans on par with Daredevil saving Spider-Man from a sniper shot, or the first scan I showed, or Daredevil able to bat a bullet back so precisely it actually shot the gun out of the shooter's hand. Everyone agrees that the scans posted on Daredevil are far more impressive.

 

As for your strength feats. None of those come close to breaking diamond with a wrought iron wrecking ball. Or even flipping a limo full of people for that matter. Daredevil's bent steel bars too, and he's punched through a brick used to block his punch by Bullseye. He's also thrown his baton through the steel reinforced highly-bulletproof window of an armored car (all Punisher's Rocket Launcher did was to tip it over slightly). Try again.

 

If "everyone" is Bigballerju, I'm still fairly confident. And as for the strength feats, please post your scans. And cracking glass that "nothing short of a bazooka" can crack isn't as impressive? Here are a few more.

 

batmissiledoor2.jpg

 

Throws Dr. Death through a door reinforced against missiles.

 

batman406-year1batkick.jpg

 

Kicks through concrete column after being shot in the leg.

 

gothamaftermidnight2-batvsarcophagus2.jpg

 

 

Supports a massive golden sarcophagus, and then using his line as a pulley holds the line with one hand supporting the other. King Tut's sarcophagus, which is much smaller than the ones pictured here, weighs 3,000 pounds.

 

Those equal or surpass DD's.

 

As for good showings...

 

batvsninmanbats.jpg

 

Here he has just off-panel defeated (I count 17) manbats trained by the league of assassins.

 

batvsjla-confidential2.jpg

batvsjla-confidential3.jpg

batvsjla-confidential4.jpg

batvsjla-confidential5.jpg

batvsjla-confidential6.jpg

 

So DD's the one who fights out of his weight class, huh?



#215 force_echo

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 02:45 PM

If "everyone" is Bigballerju, I'm still fairly confident. And as for the strength feats, please post your scans. And cracking glass that "nothing short of a bazooka" can crack isn't as impressive? Here are a few more.

 

batmissiledoor2.jpg

 

Throws Dr. Death through a door reinforced against missiles.

 

batman406-year1batkick.jpg

 

Kicks through concrete column after being shot in the leg.

 

gothamaftermidnight2-batvsarcophagus2.jpg

 

 

Supports a massive golden sarcophagus, and then using his line as a pulley holds the line with one hand supporting the other. King Tut's sarcophagus, which is much smaller than the ones pictured here, weighs 3,000 pounds.

 

Those equal or surpass DD's.

 

As for good showings...

 

batvsninmanbats.jpg

 

Here he has just off-panel defeated (I count 17) manbats trained by the league of assassins.

 

batvsjla-confidential2.jpg

batvsjla-confidential3.jpg

batvsjla-confidential4.jpg

batvsjla-confidential5.jpg

batvsjla-confidential6.jpg

 

So DD's the one who fights out of his weight class, huh?

daredevilv2042092oc.jpg

 

ddvsabsorbingman28qt.th.jpg

 

daredevil179098is.jpg

 

daredevil172196fh.jpg

 

daredevil172209gk.jpg

First of all, he didn't break it, he cracked it. Second of all, doing it with punches and kicks is much easier than throwing a baton through it.

 

Except the door wasn't reinforced against missiles, hence Dr. Death saying " Ok, maybe I was wrong about the door".

 

Proof that the sarcophagus weighs 3000 pounds? Also, bracing one end of something is a lot easier than lifting the weight. An armored limosine weighs 14,000 to 16,000 pounds, and Daredevil flipped one (flipping is akin to deadlifting in terms of the motion, which is harder than benching).

 

17 manbats? Manbats are just people with wings, claws, and echolocation. They don't have enhanced physical attributes, and furthermore they have vulnerable senses. Not really that impressive.

 

Yeah, if the Justice League forgot their powers, I'm fairly sure Daredevil would be able to beat them too. Seriously, Martian Manhunter forgets he has telepathy until the end. He also gets stopped by a kick from Batman despite the fact that he could probably take a nuke to the stomach. Aquaman gets handled by Batman despite the fact that he could flex and rip Batman in half, Flash forgets he can react and move faster than Batman can think, and how the f*ck did he take out Green Lantern? Obviously, the feat is nonrepeatable. Batman had the advantage of the other heroes not thinking he was anything but a normal dude and not taking him seriously.

 

Honestly, I don't even know where Batman vs. Daredevil is coming from. It's not even on-topic.



#216 thanosisawesome

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 03:06 PM

daredevilv2042092oc.jpg

 

ddvsabsorbingman28qt.th.jpg

 

daredevil179098is.jpg

 

daredevil172196fh.jpg

 

daredevil172209gk.jpg

First of all, he didn't break it, he cracked it. Second of all, doing it with punches and kicks is much easier than throwing a baton through it.

 

Except the door wasn't reinforced against missiles, hence Dr. Death saying " Ok, maybe I was wrong about the door".

 

Proof that the sarcophagus weighs 3000 pounds? Also, bracing one end of something is a lot easier than lifting the weight. An armored limosine weighs 14,000 to 16,000 pounds, and Daredevil flipped one (flipping is akin to deadlifting in terms of the motion, which is harder than benching).

 

17 manbats? Manbats are just people with wings, claws, and echolocation. They don't have enhanced physical attributes, and furthermore they have vulnerable senses. Not really that impressive.

 

Yeah, if the Justice League forgot their powers, I'm fairly sure Daredevil would be able to beat them too. Seriously, Martian Manhunter forgets he has telepathy until the end. He also gets stopped by a kick from Batman despite the fact that he could probably take a nuke to the stomach. Aquaman gets handled by Batman despite the fact that he could flex and rip Batman in half, Flash forgets he can react and move faster than Batman can think, and how the f*ck did he take out Green Lantern? Obviously, the feat is nonrepeatable. Batman had the advantage of the other heroes not thinking he was anything but a normal dude and not taking him seriously.

 

So much ignorance. I'll try to handle this easily. 

 

1-Talia states that nothing short of a bazooka can crack the glass. Thus, the punch had the force of a bazooka.

 

2-Normal people have a grasp of sarcasm. Dr. Death was making a wisecrack. Y'know, a joke?

 

3-Here you go. It shouldn't have been that hard for you to google it though.

 

http://www.touregypt.../tutcoffins.htm

 

4-Did you really just say that Man-Bats aren't that impressive? Seeing as they effortlessly pushed over the sarcophagus pictured in the other scan, you are completely wrong. Wait, vulnerable senses? You mean just like Daredevil? Weird. Make sure you know what you're typing before you type it.

 

5-This one needs multiple subcategories.

           -How many times have you seen MM start with telepathy against a normal human?

           -Batman used redirection and skill to handle the vastly physically superior Aquaman and MM.

           -He used his superior reflexes to hit Lantern before he could throw up defenses, and knocked him out.

           -The Flash doesn't FTL blitz everyone he fights. And Batman blocked his vision, before Flash realized that something was wrong. Yes, Flash is bajillions of times faster but he underestimated him. The feat is impressive anyway you wing it. More impressive than any Daredevil feat you posted.



#217 baneblade

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 05:59 PM

1. Except Muhammed Ali and Lee didn't really have students. Also, by your point, Lady Shiva was only better than Bats and Cain at the point of when she trained them. She trained Bats when he was a shadow of his former self. She trained Cain when she didn't have her body reading ability. That's not impressive whatsoever. I'm fairly sure Daredevil could beat both simultaneously at that point in time.

 

2. No, that's not true at all. Just because Bane can beat Judomaster using other techniques doesn't mean he has no use for Judo. What if he's fighting in another situation where Judo is more optimal than whatever he uses? Such as when he fights someone substantially bigger than him, a situation where Judo is optimized I think.

 

3. I'm talking about the first fight, where you said Shiva would win. Which is not true at all. The second fight, I still think goes to Daredevil because of his greater physicality even if him and Shiva are close in skill. What are you talking about? First of all, there's nothing saying that Shiva's smart enough to pick up on the fact that he's blind. Second of all, she can't be silent. Her heart's still beating, and as softly as she steps and moves, Daredevil can still hear it. He can smell the sweat on her body and make an image of her. He can feel the displacement of the air when she moves. No once can "silence" themselves from Daredevil.

 

Iron Fist is more skilled than Cain or Batman, he's literally infinitely skilled. Plus he's far superhuman with chi-enhancement, he's also beaten Ghostface (a person who beat Shang Chi in like 3 panels) and a mind-controlled Elektra simultaneously. So that takes care of Cain. Also, Batman isn't that impressive tactically, he's more of a strategy guy. If anything, the Punisher's better or equal, and Daredevil's beaten him 2-3 times. Added to that, one stalemate, and one time where Punisher beat Daredevil.

 

1. Except Muhammed Ali and Lee didn't really have students. Also, by your point, Lady Shiva was only better than Bats and Cain at the point of when she trained them. She trained Bats when he was a shadow of his former self. She trained Cain when she didn't have her body reading ability. That's not impressive whatsoever. I'm fairly sure Daredevil could beat both simultaneously at that point in time.

 

Still does not negate the point that her ability and knowledge surpassed them even if at that point in time. WHat about the time when she not only killed Cain but restarted her heart, thereby affording her the chance to win later? DD beating them is conjecture bro

 

2. No, that's not true at all. Just because Bane can beat Judomaster using other techniques doesn't mean he has no use for Judo. What if he's fighting in another situation where Judo is more optimal than whatever he uses? Such as when he fights someone substantially bigger than him, a situation where Judo is optimized I think.

No bro. That's not how any fighting discipline works. There is no fighting discipline in fact that is essentially required to fight another weilding that discipline in a 'real' fight. You are drawing a straw and stating something as in 'Judo tournament', or 'Karate tournament'. Those are unique, in between situations where people of similar skill are tested, not people of 'varying skills'. In relaity, again reiterating, no particular fighting style is need to trump another

 

 

3. I'm talking about the first fight, where you said Shiva would win. Which is not true at all. The second fight, I still think goes to Daredevil because of his greater physicality even if him and Shiva are close in skill. What are you talking about? First of all, there's nothing saying that Shiva's smart enough to pick up on the fact that he's blind. Second of all, she can't be silent. Her heart's still beating, and as softly as she steps and moves, Daredevil can still hear it. He can smell the sweat on her body and make an image of her. He can feel the displacement of the air when she moves. No once can "silence" themselves from Daredevil.

 

Yet he didn't detect the punisher in the Max series when Punisher blindsided him with sonics and tied him up. I do not think Punisher is any more deceptive in a H2H fight, than Bats or Shiva. In fact, he is way less.

 

 

Iron Fist is more skilled than Cain or Batman, he's literally infinitely skilled. Plus he's far superhuman with chi-enhancement, he's also beaten Ghostface (a person who beat Shang Chi in like 3 panels) and a mind-controlled Elektra simultaneously. So that takes care of Cain. Also, Batman isn't that impressive tactically, he's more of a strategy guy. If anything, the Punisher's better or equal, and Daredevil's beaten him 2-3 times. Added to that, one stalemate, and one time where Punisher beat Daredevil.

 

Fist is 'skilled technically' you say bro? I agree. Infinitely, no. Infinite, would be to have no limit, just like folsk used to bull**** on Hulk's no cieling strength. Cain is not taken care of in sense that I think she is miles ahead of Elektra. As for Shang Chi or Ghost Face, there is a lot of deliberation on those 2. Cap, sans the 'enhanced' martial arts skills held up against Shang Chi decently in a straight up session. Punisher better? Nyah bro. Of course, you can opine that way, but you will find many many folks will disagree. Punisher was never equal to DD or Bats in terms of H2H. He was always a gun totting chap. Plus, in the JLA/Avengers crossover, Bats laid a hard smackdown on him.



#218 force_echo

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 06:29 PM

So much ignorance. I'll try to handle this easily.

1-Talia states that nothing short of a bazooka can crack the glass. Thus, the punch had the force of a bazooka.

2-Normal people have a grasp of sarcasm. Dr. Death was making a wisecrack. Y'know, a joke?

3-Here you go. It shouldn't have been that hard for you to google it though.

http://www.touregypt.../tutcoffins.htm

4-Did you really just say that Man-Bats aren't that impressive? Seeing as they effortlessly pushed over the sarcophagus pictured in the other scan, you are completely wrong. Wait, vulnerable senses? You mean just like Daredevil? Weird. Make sure you know what you're typing before you type it.

5-This one needs multiple subcategories.
-How many times have you seen MM start with telepathy against a normal human?
-Batman used redirection and skill to handle the vastly physically superior Aquaman and MM.
-He used his superior reflexes to hit Lantern before he could throw up defenses, and knocked him out.
-The Flash doesn't FTL blitz everyone he fights. And Batman blocked his vision, before Flash realized that something was wrong. Yes, Flash is bajillions of times faster but he underestimated him. The feat is impressive anyway you wing it. More impressive than any Daredevil feat you posted.

Ignorance? So now we resort to cracks lol. You calling me ignorant doesn't make you any more right than you were.

And it's silk not as impressive as Darevil throwing a baton through glass that can take the same hits from Punishers rocket launcher, which was the entire point.

No, it says that he underestimated the strength of the door. He was being serious, it was funny to the reader because of the deadpan.

That says that the sarcophagus isn't heavy, not that Man Bats is strong. If you actually looked up the capabilities of the creatures you're talking about, the Man-Bat serum doesn't give it's users amplified strength. Toppling 3,000 pounds isn't a superhuman feat, it's called how torque works. Toppling that sarcophagus is about 3 times easier than pushing it, which in turn is far easier than lifting it. Except that Daredevil isn't vulnerable to light. At all. Since he's blind. As in, he can't see.

-Against a hostile human, quite a bit.
-That literally does not make any sense. Black Panther used redirection and skill to keep the Silver Surfer in a headlock I guess.
-How did he knock Green Lantern out? All I see is the rope wrapping around his wrist. I think you missed a scan.
- He doesn't have to move anywhere near FTL to react faster than Batman, since Batman's reflexes are nowhere near light speed. It's a one-time feat, he wouldn't be able to do that again. Daredevil's gone up against the Fantastic Four before, other than that I don't think he's been up against a team of heroes. He has beaten people who have though, like the Punisher and Iron Fist.

#219 baneblade

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 06:47 PM

1- Probably true.

 

2- Not with DD's super senses, he isn't "vanishing" anywhere. DD could literally hear him a mile away if he wanted to.

 

3- Amazonian Warriors are not that impressive at all. They're about 10 times stronger than a human female, and they possess heightened speed and endurance past the normal human male or female, so about as fast as Batman or something. Daredevil's fought Spider-Man numerous times, I'm fairly sure he could take out quite a bit of Amazonian warriors. Daredevil also beat 100 Yakuza in the span of 3 minutes with his walking cane. Despite being some of the best assassin's money can buy, and them taking MGH, giving them superhuman strength, speed, stamina, etc. Also, they had guns. Also, Daredevil hasn't beaten anyone smart or as smart as Batman? Try Punisher.

 

4- How did Batman take down the General and Bronze Tiger simultaneously? I'm calling Bullshit on that one, especially since Bronze Tiger's taken down Batman by himself before. You got a scan or issue number or something?

 

5- Is losing to the General a feat? Also, the General isn't a tactical genius or anything in his enhanced physical form, against his fight with the JLA his "strategy" consisted of punching them. A lot. Exactly like Hulk. Also, Daredevil's fought Namor, on the coast. As in, right next to the ocean, so a fully hydrated Namor.

2- Not with DD's super senses, he isn't "vanishing" anywhere. DD could literally hear him a mile away if he wanted to.

Yet it happened with Punisher, even if in the max series, where both retained all abilities and skills? I bet ya bro, Bats is way more stealthy

 

3- Amazonian Warriors are not that impressive at all. They're about 10 times stronger than a human female, and they possess heightened speed and endurance past the normal human male or female, so about as fast as Batman or something. Daredevil's fought Spider-Man numerous times, I'm fairly sure he could take out quite a bit of Amazonian warriors. Daredevil also beat 100 Yakuza in the span of 3 minutes with his walking cane. Despite being some of the best assassin's money can buy, and them taking MGH, giving them superhuman strength, speed, stamina, etc. Also, they had guns. Also, Daredevil hasn't beaten anyone smart or as smart as Batman? Try Punisher.

Bro, you just discarded a group of amazons just like that? Can't believe that bro. Your own stated stats would suggest, that being as fast as Bats even, lets say, and a bunch of them, would not be a challenge? Come one bro, now that would be stretching the straw even. DD's taken Spiderman singularly, impressive, yet not the same as facing a team up of amazons attacking full out and withstanding them, especially when you do not have 'sonar senses'. Yakuza? Their 'heightened' senses or abilities were never truly mentioned solidly, like the amazons, whose abilities are set in standard manner. I am not discarding the feat, and it is impressive; not so much as facing General Eiling in closed quarters, or a band of amazons, even if three to four at a time. As for Punisher brom being equal to Bats. Not in this universe bro. Castle's smart, and stealthy, only upto a degree. Check any source, Bats lives to out think, out smart, and thinks always 10 steps ahead at a time. It is taboo.

 

4- How did Batman take down the General and Bronze Tiger simultaneously? I'm calling Bullshit on that one, especially since Bronze Tiger's taken down Batman by himself before. You got a scan or issue number or something?

Outsiders - Five of a Kind. You forget, the example has been cited before on anothe rpost in an earlier year, and I recall well you were debating. You knew about it then too, and were trying to counter it; just can't recall the arguments or the match. Now for the bullshit part. What do you think, I accept that as something that is smart and run of the mill? I too call it bullshit. That is what I said on the post previous, that I was surprised, you, of all bros, who has called things bullshit, didn;t even cite DD's breaking of Abosrbing man's hand with a wrecking ball of all things, bullshit. Last I recalled DD was advanced human in physicality, now enhanced human or meta human. Same goes for DD/Hulk. As a saving grace for us, the least you could have done is at least call that bullshit.

5- Is losing to the General a feat? Also, the General isn't a tactical genius or anything in his enhanced physical form, against his fight with the JLA his "strategy" consisted of punching them. A lot. Exactly like Hulk. Also, Daredevil's fought Namor, on the coast. As in, right next to the ocean, so a fully hydrated Namor.

Yes, when I say, the Genaeral has Superman level durability, strength, and took on Orion, Manhunter and Superman in one go, even withstanding him along with a few others for a few minutes, sans powers becomes a huge feat for a normal person. Even while General is not tactically as sound as before in the Shaggy Man's frame; he is a threat I do not see DD hurting, only averting upto a few minutes, if not seconds. Given closed quarters, I bet DD will not withstand him, Bats did. As for Namor, so what happened, did DD win? What about the time Namor also beat him handily? What about your personal opinion on that? Even though it forcably doesnot bear on the match, but don't you opine that as bullshit bro? Still, Shaggy man is miles ahead of Namor (Orionr, Supes, Manhunter, all at once!). I conjecture, since Bat's fights was once, mostly off panel, and once, quickly presented onpanel, where he surprised Tiger and the General, I would have to draw, that he had the dexterity, reflexes, effective backup equipment, tat helped him trump them and survive, whichever comes first. I just don't see a DD feat as such. Fairly, then even taking from the PIS factory there, I will say Bats' experience in every fight outhsines DD in that, given his already always spinning mental gears, he will be more alert on the ready, just due to his personal fighting/opponent experience.

 

An opinion aside good bro: Even though DD is one of my favourites from the Marvel universe, I will say one thing: His PIS list is as much ignored as a host of other characters. Again, not bearing down on the outcome of the match, or debate; but it is an opinion, and one, again, which surprisingly, you never mentioned, or chose not to see or mention.



#220 baneblade

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 07:01 PM

Ignorance? So now we resort to cracks lol. You calling me ignorant doesn't make you any more right than you were.

And it's silk not as impressive as Darevil throwing a baton through glass that can take the same hits from Punishers rocket launcher, which was the entire point.

No, it says that he underestimated the strength of the door. He was being serious, it was funny to the reader because of the deadpan.

That says that the sarcophagus isn't heavy, not that Man Bats is strong. If you actually looked up the capabilities of the creatures you're talking about, the Man-Bat serum doesn't give it's users amplified strength. Toppling 3,000 pounds isn't a superhuman feat, it's called how torque works. Toppling that sarcophagus is about 3 times easier than pushing it, which in turn is far easier than lifting it. Except that Daredevil isn't vulnerable to light. At all. Since he's blind. As in, he can't see.

-Against a hostile human, quite a bit.
-That literally does not make any sense. Black Panther used redirection and skill to keep the Silver Surfer in a headlock I guess.
-How did he knock Green Lantern out? All I see is the rope wrapping around his wrist. I think you missed a scan.
- He doesn't have to move anywhere near FTL to react faster than Batman, since Batman's reflexes are nowhere near light speed. It's a one-time feat, he wouldn't be able to do that again. Daredevil's gone up against the Fantastic Four before, other than that I don't think he's been up against a team of heroes. He has beaten people who have though, like the Punisher and Iron Fist.

The real extract of this post lies in DD's opponent quality, in what I will say is just my take. DD's feats of fending off Fist, and Punisher in their respective circumstances takes a serious backseat to Bats feat in the above posts: Taking on General and living through it, a band of amazons, and taking down General and Bronze Tiger in one go. Can't match it, not anytime sooner bro.






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