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Marvel vs Saiyans


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#81 corvette1710

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 09:20 AM

Just you wait wee man ;) Goku will be bringing the ruckus.

Unless that ruckus is a form made out of Kryptonite, I don't want to hear it. :P

#82 Oltobaz

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:11 AM

Nova,

Math? Now, that's speculation. The less said about math in fantasy (I use that word loosely, admittedly), the better. Again, I'm not saying people like Strange wouldn't be able to survive, and the Marvels are certainly a force to be reckoned with. But if Broly is to destroy the Earth, they can't stop him. Like I said, this fight can go on in space. As for Strange, he won't die, but he won't perform very well in space, certainly not as well as on Earth.

#83 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:23 AM

Actually, he would.

#84 Oltobaz

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:28 AM

He'll have less resources to draw upon.

#85 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:29 AM

Mind control =/= telepathy, Hayes. So much more can be done. Shut down, turn into vegetable etc.

Also you can't say they all have strong wills based upon one of them having one. That's like saying they all can switch bodies because Ginyu can. No. No no no no.

Shutting down someone's mind would mean you have control of it. ;)

That is a poor comparison. Will power is inherent to all sentient life, techniques are learned.

#86 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:55 AM

No he really wouldn't.

Hayes, no. Especially since the mind control that Vegeta resisted is not telepathic in any way.

Moreover, Dabura, Yamu, Spopovich were not resistant. Frieza and Cell too, if you count games.

#87 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:12 AM

Moreover, Dabura, Yamu, Spopovich were not resistant.

Didn't Dabura attack Buu against Babidi's orders? :D Yamu and Spopovich were weaklings.

#88 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:20 AM

He attacked yes, because he thought it was the best course of action for his master.

And you didn't acknowledge my other point.

#89 sirmethos

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:22 AM

"Buu is a magical creature in nature, his mind is set to destroy, I highly doubt his mind could be taken over. DBZers have strong will, and have resisted mind control before."

You seem to be so focused on Mind-Control, that you're forgetting that there are several other, much more effective, ways of using Telepathy in combat.

Mind Wiping, for example. Illusions/Sensory Misdirection, Mental Suggestion, etc. etc.



"To be fair, Broly is not canon, while this film is."

This film is just as much Canon as all of the other films, being part of the same series, and the same universe/reality/continuity.



"Some dimensions in the Marvel universe can only be accessed/exited through vertain points or by accomplishing certain rituals. Or, he could just banish him to a place beyond time, so Buu could not act."

He could also banish Buu into one of the realms that are ruled by beings like Cyttorak, who could easily annihilate Buu. Or Chthon/Shuma-Gorath, that are omnipotent in their own realms.

Or the Crossroads. Or the realm of Lady Death. Or countless other places where Buu either couldn't escape from, or where he would be nigh-intantly annihilated.



"Broly being Broly, he'll eventually get free (as seen in the original movie), and destroy the planet on a whim. Not saying some Marvel chars couldn't match him in power, no way they'll prevent him to bust up the planet the moment he's himself again, though."

Not true. Several of the Marvel characters are fast enough to take Broly out, before he even realizes what's happening, let alone start destroying anything.

On the off chance, that he actually does get a planet destroying attack charged up, several of the Marvel characters are energy absorbers, if not outright Energy Manipulators.



"Just how fast they really are is anyone guess,"

Yea, not so much.

There are actually a few things that narrows their speed down.

1. They are slower than the speed of light.
2. They are faster than the speed of sound.


"but saiyans are certainly faster than someone like Iron Man."

Depends on which armor he's wearing. Extremis and later armors are just as fast, if not more so, than any of the Saiyans.



"As for his weaponry, it wouldn't be effective, if we're to look a the manga/show, human made weapons have no effect on DBZers, except for the cyborgs, of course."

Go read some issues of Iron Man, then come back when you actually know something about his capabilities. From that statement, you obviously haven't read anything with Iron Man from the last 7 years, at least.



"The three other guys you listed could match him in speed,"

If by "match him in speed", you actually mean "move and react so much faster than him, that he might as well be standing still and unconscious", then yes. They can match him in speed.



"Kame Sennin destroyed the Moon during the first Tenkaichi in seconds with no effort. With a blast all the way from Earth. Broly is infinitely more powerful,"

No, Broly is not "infinitely more powerful".



"That's where we disagree. Dbzer's chars have various speed levels depending on what power level they currently are. Broly at full power is fast enough to match someone like Thor in combat."

No, he really isn't.

Broly is not even close to the speed of light. While Thor(to use your example), is capable of fighting and reacting, at several times the speed of light. Not even a contest.


"There's evidence of that, I specifically remember one episode in which Gotrunks, while fighting against Buu, starts to fly around the Earth at top speeds"

Yea, that, right there, is the single best feat of speed, in the entire Dragonball universe. And that feat is less than the speed of light.


"Just wait until God Mode, then Goku will be slapping beings like Supes n Thor with ease."

Completely ignoring the point of speed for a moment. Unless the "God Mode" form, increases his raw power, by a factor of more than x1000. No, he really won't.


"Assuming Broly is slower than Thor, Nova or Sentry is akin to speculation"

No, it isn't.

Broly is slower than the speed of light.

Thor and Sentry are both considerably faster than light.

No speculation in that.



"This is a manga in which, by Toriyama own admission, there's no power limit."

Not entirely true. There is no limit on their potential. There is a fine, but distinct difference. At any given time, they have a distinct, finite limit on their power. That's the whole idea of Goku, that he keep breaking and surpassing his limits.


"I've seen it calculated that Gotenks was moving at 25% the speed of light.

Let's throw Broly a bone and say he's twice as powerful as Gotenks. 50% the speed of light.

Add that 10% boost. 60% the speed of light.

Sentry, Thor and Nova can all move faster than that in normal travel. Heck arguably the slowest one of them in regular space(Nova) can move at 80% the speed of light. 20% faster than Broly."


Your math is wrong -.- And not just a little wrong, it's so wrong that it's practically painful.

Broly twice as powerful as Gotenks. 50%. That's how far you gote before your math went fubar.

add a 10% boost, to 50%. That's not 60%, that's 55%

80% of light speed, is not 20% faster than 60% of light speed -.- it's about 33% faster.



"But if Broly is to destroy the Earth, they can't stop him."

Yes, they really can.

They're fast enough to prevent him from doing anything at all(considering that he's essentially moving in slow-motion in comparison).

On top of that, there is Matter Manipulation(which Broly has no defense against).

Energy Manipulation(which Broly has no defense against).

Force Fields they can put around him(which Broly would be completely incapable of penetrating).

Raw blasts of energy(that would obliterate Broly instantly on impact).

etc. etc. etc. And all that is without adding Dr. Strange to the mix, who could take out the entire DBZ team single-handedly.

#90 Shoggoth breeder

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:26 AM

Well, the DBZers lose, Gero gets beaten for the third time and everyone goes home having learned a valuable lesson.

Until next time.

#91 Shoggoth breeder

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:29 AM

This one?
Posted Image
It is in the trailer.


Damn, now I owe my friend an apology. If that's the God Form then what's the one with the red hair?

#92 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:42 AM

Eh math was never my strong suit(by that I mean I'm so bad, its actually painful)

Everyone has weaknesses.

I'll just leave it to you guys. :/

#93 MarvelFan15

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 11:59 AM

He wouldn't have time. He has normal human reflexes, while someone like Broly can bust up planets in seconds.


While it's true that he is heavily outclassed in terms of speed, Strange has demonstrated battle precog before. Against the Silver Surfer. He'll easily be able to intercept and defend against anything the DBZers will throw at him.

Oh and Strange literally can't die, so he would survive and then easily take out the Saiyans. With ease.


Strange can die, actually, assuming it isn't old age attacking him. As per the Ancient One, "Death can only come from without, not from within." Strange has Type II immortality (possibly Type VI like the ancient one) as well as Type 0 immortality (which is inadmissible in this fight, of course).

Like I said, this fight can go on in space. As for Strange, he won't die, but he won't perform very well in space, certainly not as well as on Earth.

...

He'll have less resources to draw upon.


He'll be deprived of Earth magic, but that's it. Strange still treats the core of a star like a warm summer day, then forcefully induces its collapse into a black hole if said star gets too uppity.


Shutting down someone's mind would mean you have control of it.

That is a poor comparison. Will power is inherent to all sentient life, techniques are learned.


Strange has many more options available to him than that. He could literally tear Buu's mind from his body and send it back to the dawn of time, trap him in an eternal sleep, or imprison Buu within his own consciousness.

And those are just his mental options. Doc can also reverse the spells holding Buu together, or just cause whatever magical energy Buu has to disperse, leaving Buu unable to reform until such time as Strange allows it.


"Some dimensions in the Marvel universe can only be accessed/exited through vertain points or by accomplishing certain rituals. Or, he could just banish him to a place beyond time, so Buu could not act."

He could also banish Buu into one of the realms that are ruled by beings like Cyttorak, who could easily annihilate Buu. Or Chthon/Shuma-Gorath, that are omnipotent in their own realms.

Or the Crossroads. Or the realm of Lady Death. Or countless other places where Buu either couldn't escape from, or where he would be nigh-intantly annihilated.


I was actually thinking he might avoid banishing him there. Not only do the wards of those realms (Cyttorak, and such) not instantly react to everything that trespasses (Buu has a slight chance for escape), but think of the opportunity Buu provides: a mindless magical construct that reacts to the orders of a superior will, ready-baked and on their front porch. Juggernaut too troublesome? Empower Buu. Thanos too bitchy? Empower Buu.

Strange would be better off just disincorporating him outright, or sending Buu to a place that is uninhabitable for beings made of matter...though I guess he just gets sent to Mistress Death either way.

Also, how hard is it to get to/from the Crossroads normally?

#94 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:10 PM

I found a scan where Galactus, Nova, Silver Surfer and Doctor Strange were all caught in a massive explosion and all "died." Save Strange.

Then Strange fought Death, won, and brought them all back to life.



#95 corvette1710

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:13 PM

Story above in short: Dr. Strange is the human form of the Dragon Balls.

#96 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:20 PM

Damn, now I owe my friend an apology. If that's the God Form then what's the one with the red hair?

I'm not sure to be honest. Perhaps it is base god form, and the other is super saiyan god mode.

#97 xLEGACYx

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:30 PM

im confused why this debate is so long. We have had similar matches a lot lately. A group of top tier DBZ characters against a group of top tier Marvel characters, Marvel wins every time plain and simple.

#98 Oltobaz

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:32 PM

To Sirmethos:

1/ DBZ movies may be set in the DB universe, but, for the most part, they're not in the same continuity. The three Broly movies aren't part of said continuity.

2/ I know some Marvel chars could take out Broly before he destroys the planet. I just don't see any in this set up. As for absorbing an earth shattering blast, Sentry might be up to the task, Thor could redirect it to another dimension, etc... except they don't know who they're up against, hence I doubt they can react fast enough, considering Broly is just as fast as they are.

3/ As far as Dbzer's beeing faster than sound but slower than light, thank you for sharing your own subjective opinion.

4/ No matter what armor he's wearing, Iron Man isn't in the same league as the likes of Sentry and Thor (though he did beat Sentry once by hacking into Cloc), he's not even a factor. I'm a major Tony fan, he's smart, but he doesn't stand a chance. I'll admit that with prep, he could come up with something, like his anti Phenix device (which didn't prove very effective, sadly), or, given the chance, amped up Uru weapons like in the Serpent Wars. Fact is, he doesn't have any prep. For someone who's lived as long as you have, Methos, you assume too much. I know my comics. And I think you're overestimating Stark.

5/ Again, Broly's speed, the Dbzer's speed is anyone's guess. I already debated this at length with Nova, and do not wish to repeat myself. I'll just say that the Gotrunks feat is related to Supes speed feat in his first movie. At this point in the series, these guys are just as capable as Kal el speedwise, and that's what this scene is all about. Besides, Sentry, Thor and Nova power levels have shown many inconcistencies over the years, depending on which writer was using them. You'd think Sentry could have destroyed WWHulk with ease thanks to his superior speed, you'd also think he wouldn't have needed help to carry the Shield helicarrier. I know the answer to that, PIS, right? Not very satisfying though. Dbze'rs aren't affected by these issues, they're consistently powerful, lol (if you don't count DBGT, which, to my sense, never happened since Toriyama was barely involved).

6/ Broly is infinitely more powerful than Kame Sennin. I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. Have you read the manga, watched the series? Pointer, Kame Sennin destroys the Moon early on in the series while at level 120, approximately. He does that with ease, instantly. That's actually a speed feat, his energy blast connected with the Moon instantly. Is this getting through? What does that tell you about, cough, the likes of Broly? And, before I move to 7/, do I really have to explain in what ways Broly is superior to Goku's old master? Seriously...

7/ I agree with you, no limit to their potential, and I also agree about the limit thing they have at any given time, except Saiyans push these limits further fights after fights, wounds after wounds (provided they recover), and things are even better from Broly, as it is said his power grows constantly, all by itself. In DBZ lore, an increase in power means an increase in strength, energy, and, you guessed it, speed. Let's assume he wasn't yet FTL when he first appeared, he would have been by the Buu story ark, if we're to look at how fast Gotrunks showed us he was back then. As fast as Supes, that's what the scene was all about. Anyways, in case of Broly, there's no limit to his power at any given time, it's always increasing! Seriously, have you seen the movies?

8/ In regards to your last ideas, I agree, some could be effective, right after the planet is destroyed, they'll come out with something. Of course, I'll be dead, and so will you, hence we'll never know, I can already tell you however, these force fields won't be effective against Broly. Marvel Force fields can't usually handle the Hulk, they won't stop Broly. Raw blasts of energy, that's Broly thing, won't work (at least not from the players at hand). Energy manipulation, yep, that could work. Like I said, we'll be dead, so, who cares, right? Let's just hope you're not counting too much on Strange. He was acting almighty in WWH, we all know how it turned out. If he can't stop one planet buster, he sure can't stop the whole DBzer's. Et voilĂ .

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:36 PM

Well, this is an anime sequel, so that makes sense, I guess. It just looks like a different SSJ4 though, so Toei probably has a hand in it.

#100 Oltobaz

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:38 PM

To Marvelfan 15

You bring up some good points. If Strange somehow knows beforehand what's gonna happen, he can react accordingly. But his precog ability is limited, he didn't know Banner would trick him and eventually squish his hands. It depends on who's writing the story, this aspect could be a factor, or not. That's the thing with precogs, they' don't always control their visions..




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