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Marvel vs Saiyans


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#201 xLEGACYx

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:46 PM

Funny how its ok to use one sides low feats but not the others

If you want to play that game...

As a SS Goku was hurt by a single rock tossed effortlessly by krillin. Poor poor z fighters

#202 KidStranglehold

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:47 PM

Funny how its ok to use one sides low feats but not the others

If you want to play that game...

As a SS Goku was hurt by a single rock tossed effortlessly by krillin. Poor poor z fighters


Also SSJ struggling to lift 40 tons.

#203 Oltobaz

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:52 PM

Spiderman winning against Firelord isn't a comic relief Nova. T'Challa prevailing over SS isn't a comic relief either. It wasn't intended to make you laugh, it doesn't have a comedic purpose. And calling me names is akin to immaturity, what are you feeling so insecure about, I wonder?

#204 Oltobaz

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:54 PM

I already addressed your example earlier on Legacy, a filler example, but whatever.

#205 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:55 PM

Yes it was. I laughed. I really did.

Not calling you names, just commenting on how you're portraying yourself. So far, it does seem like that.

#206 sirmethos

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:58 PM

"You're underestimating Broly, he isn't like the other saiyans. If he only had one small advantage such as the one you grant, Goku and co wouldn't have had do much trouble."

Quite the contrary, I'm not underestimating anyone. I know exactly what Broly is capable of. Unlike you(it seems) though, I'm also aware of his limitations.

On the other hand, you seem to be underestimating Broly's advantages, namely the advantage he gets from generating/regenerating Ki faster.

1. He was more powerful than the Z-fighters. Not by a huge margin(as shown by his defeat), but even a relatively low superiority in power, means a lot.
2. (from his Ki regenerating faster)He doesn't tire out as fast as the Z-fighters, and even when he does tire out, he gets back to his max a lot faster. That's one hell of an advantage. Among other things, it means that he can throw low level blasts around like confetti at a parade, without ever tiring out.


"Godspeed already posted a scene showing how dangerous Broly really is. He wants the planet gone? It's gone."

He posted a video that shows Broly destroying a planet. Something that characters like Thor or Sentry, could replicate using just a fraction of their power.


" Plus, he's FTL, since...
...Cell is commenting on his own speed while commenting on IT. It's a comparison."


1. No, Broly is not FTL. There is not a single piece of evidence, which would support the claim that he is.

2. No, Cell's comment is not a comparison to IT. Anyone with a fair understanding of the English language, will tell you that as well. If I were to say "I'm not as fast as a car, but I'm pretty damn fast." it wouldn't be a comparison between my speed, and that of a car. It's simply two statements. 1. I'm not as fast as a car. 2. I'm pretty damn fast



"DBZ low showings are comic reliefs. They're funny because, as the audience, we know they're absurd. That they can't really happen."

They are part of the canon continuity.


"Finally, Toriyama himself said once there was only one continuity, the manga and the anime merged together. However if some anime material contredict the manga, the manga should be held superior then, as the source material. Thought you knew that. It's common sense."

Toriyama himself also said that Dragonball GT, is a "side-story" to the original DBZ. I.e. part of the continuity, aka. canon.

Also, according to that, the video I showed you earlier, of Krillin cloning himself, is canon. It does not contradict anything in the manga.


"You weren't showing much focus when erring about TenShinHan, and you know it."

Actually, yes I was. I was responding to your comments, one point at a time. Just like I always do. I didn't start going off-topic, or talk about things that you had not brought up.

#207 Oltobaz

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:00 PM

It made you laugh, but it wasn't intended. Don't you see the difference, or is this notion too subtle for you? I think that's the problem, sadly...

#208 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:00 PM

There's only one problem here. Your fanboyism.

#209 Oltobaz

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:02 PM

Thought it was your hollow skull?

#210 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:05 PM

Huh.

*taps head*

No, not hollow. At least, no evidence for it.

However this thread has plenty of evidence of your fanboyism. ^_^

#211 xLEGACYx

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:15 PM

Huh.

*taps head*

No, not hollow. At least, no evidence for it.

However this thread has plenty of evidence of your fanboyism. ^_^

hit the nail on the head. He has all the claims but has not backed up his claims with a single shred of evidence.

#212 Oltobaz

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:16 PM

I can see we won't agree, Methos. You realize I can just cut and paste stuff I already wrote in answer to your claims, with a couple updates here and there, and you've shown you were very capable as well of doing the same thing. Alrighty, I'll bite, I'll bite...

DBGT, Toriyama was barely involved with. It's just a bad series he didn't create. Had he really been involved, it would have been much, much different. So, yeah, it doesn't exist as far most fans are concerned.

Talking about TenShinHan and erring doing so are two different things, yet you did both. Hardly a problem, just pointing it out so that we're clear on that, lol.

Cell is very happy with his speed in spite of IT, which he doesn't fail to mention in his sentence. That's all the evidence I'll ever need, and you already know my conclusions. You know how Broly benefit from this conclusion. Who, despite his loss, severely outmatched Goku and co. In the context of a short movie, the fight doesn't drag so long as, say, Frieza's fight, but had it been implemented within the series, it would have been made ever more obvious.

Finally, I think you need a broader understanding of Japanese manga storytelling, so that you know how to handle DBZ comic relief scenes for what they really are. Let's just say this medium is full of codes, and that would be one of those, to put things simply..

Legacy and Nova: you both know I have backed up my claims. Whether you're willing to accept my evidence has more to do with you than it has to do with me, at this point. Nighty nights!

#213 xLEGACYx

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:24 PM

I can see we won't agree, Methos. You realize I can just cut and paste stuff I already wrote in answer to your claims, with a couple updates here and there, and you've shown you were very capable as well of doing the same thing. Alrighty, I'll bite, I'll bite...

DBGT, Toriyama was barely involved with. It's just a bad series he didn't create. Had he really been involved, it would have been much, much different. So, yeah, it doesn't exist as far most fans are concerned.

Talking about TenShinHan and erring doing so are two different things, yet you did both. Hardly a problem, just pointing it out so that we're clear on that, lol.

Cell is very happy with his speed in spite of IT, which he doesn't fail to mention in his sentence. That's all the evidence I'll ever need, and you already know my conclusions. You know how Broly benefit from this conclusion. Who, despite his loss, severely outmatched Goku and co. In the context of a short movie, the fight doesn't drag so long as, say, Frieza's fight, but had it been implemented within the series, it would have been made ever more obvious.

Finally, I think you need a broader understanding of Japanese manga storytelling, so that you know how to handle DBZ comic relief scenes for what they really are. Let's just say this medium is full of codes, and that would be one of those, to put things simply..

judging by this post, you have an opinion on what you think happens. Your opinion has no validity in a debate. So I would recommend either radically changing your debating style or not bother anymore. In order to prove a point you need actual facts and proof. If not, you may as well try to convince people your imaginary friend is real.

#214 corvette1710

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:32 PM

You haven't posted any substantial evidence of FTL.

Nothing that cannot be interpreted as anything but FTL.

#215 sirmethos

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:34 PM

"DBGT, Toriyama was barely involved with. It's just a bad series he didn't create. Had he really been involved, it would have been much, much different. So, yeah, it doesn't exist as far most fans are concerned."

What "most fans" think, is irrelevant. According to your own statement, Toriyama's word is essentially "word of god". And according to Toriyama's own words, GT is a part of the continuity. Whether people like it or not.


"Talking about TenShinHan and erring doing so are two different things, yet you did both."

Not true. As I pointed out that the Daizenshuu(vol 4) supports my statement.


"Cell is very happy with his speed in spite of IT, which he doesn't fail to mention in his sentence."

That is true. Though he doesn't mention anything about being happy. "I'm pretty damn fast". That is what he says about his speed(aside from not being as fast as "instant). Nothing more, nothing less.


"That's all the evidence I'll ever need, and you already know my conclusions."

Ok, so you need absolutely no evidence, to make the conclusion that he is FTL or close to it. Just so we're clear about it.


"Finally, I think you need a broader understanding of Japanese manga storytelling, so that you know how to handle DBZ comic relief scenes for what they really are. Let's just say this medium is full of codes, and that would be one of those, to put things simply.."

Bottom line: Low showings for some things should be considered. But low showings for other things should be ignored. Again, that's not how it works.


"Legacy and Nova: you both know I have backed up my claims. Whether you're willing to accept my evidence has more to do with you than it has to do with me, at this point."

Let's see: You've claimed that the DBZ'ers are FTL. And have provided absolutely no evidence that actually shows that. You have claimed that Broly's power is "constantly increasing" and have provided no evidence of it. That's hardly "backing up" your claims.



And once again, you've completely ignored several of my points.

#216 Oltobaz

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 01:08 AM

At this point, there's no need to go on. Just so we're clear, Cell stating his speed is pretty damn good shows he's pretty happy about it. It's obvious. He should be, he's almost FTL, judging how he mentions IT in the same sentence.
DB GT, Toriyama didn't create, he showed some solidarity towards the show and its creators back then, that's how business works, especially in Japan, but he didn't create it. It's not part of the source material, hence not part of DB and DBZ. It's another series altogether, set after the show, which itself is full of fillers, stuff that sometimes contredict the manga (in way haven't even debated here, as there's no point..).
As for the Daizenshu thing, vol 7 supports my statement.
Finally, helping you reach a better understanding of how these comic relief scenes work, you'll notice they never occur in actual combat.... they're not meant to be taken seriously.

#217 sirmethos

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 04:56 AM

"Cell stating his speed is pretty damn good shows he's pretty happy about it. It's obvious. He should be, he's almost FTL, judging how he mentions IT in the same sentence."

Again, there is absolutely nothing, that shows him as almost FTL. His statement is not a comparison, in any way or form.

Also, if the DBZ'ers were FTL, there would be more than a single statement, that doesn't even remotely show it, to support the claim. You have provided nothing.


"DB GT, Toriyama didn't create, he showed some solidarity towards the show and its creators back then, that's how business works, especially in Japan, but he didn't create it. It's not part of the source material, hence not part of DB and DBZ."

It doesn't matter if he created it or not. He clearly stated that it is part of the same continuity, calling it "the original Dragon Ball's grand side-story Dragon Ball GT".

Also, he contributed with the title, the initial main character designs, some of the mecha designs, and a number of image cuts.

It doesn't matter whether you like it or not. According to Toriyama's own statement, it's part of the same continuity.


"It's another series altogether, set after the show, which itself is full of fillers, stuff that sometimes contredict the manga (in way haven't even debated here, as there's no point..)."

The majority of the fillers in the show, does not contradict the manga in any way. According to your own earlier words, that means that it's canon.


"As for the Daizenshu thing, vol 7 supports my statement."

Aye, which means we just have to agree to disagree. Since the source material is contradictory in and of itself, and supports both of us.


"Finally, helping you reach a better understanding of how these comic relief scenes work, you'll notice they never occur in actual combat.... they're not meant to be taken seriously."

Finally, for someone who calls himself a fan, you show an appallingly low amount of knowledge about Dragon Ball. Just like several fanboys I've debated with in the past, you have a fair knowledge about the flashy parts, while seemingly completely missing the smaller, more subtle parts.

Goku being hurt when being stuck by a needle(when getting injections), when being hit by ChiChi's frying pan, or when being hit by a rock thrown by Krillin, while they're relaxing in the sun, all has a single logical explanation, none of which needs to be side-stepped by calling it "comic relief".

All of these things(and a few others), happen while their Ki is either being suppressed, or is extremely low, which leaves them at the same general level as regular, untrained and non-enhanced, humans(you know, not using their Ki to enhance their speed, durability, etc).

These things are meant to show, that despite their level of training and power, they are still very much human, with all the flaws and weaknesses that implies.

Similarly, Sentry, to use him as an example in the Comics(since his low showings were brought up), has a similar logical explanation for his low showings. It was even, cleverly, put into the very description of his powers. Sentry's power level, depends on his state of mind. Which means that when he is doubting himself, when his psychological issues are bothering him, when his confidence is low, etc. his level of power is lower, to the point of him being little more than a normal human being. While when he is confident, with a stable mind, his power is "potentially nigh-unlimited". I.e. more powerful than anything in the DBZ universe.



At this point, your part of the debate, has consisted of side-stepping, or outright ignoring, the majority of points made against you, while stubbornly insisting that you're right. All while providing not a single piece of conclusive evidence to support your, increasingly ridiculous, claims. And showing a disturbingly low amount of knowledge, about things that you claim to be a fan of. Not to mention contradicting yourself.


For now, I'm done with this debate. If you actually provide evidence, to support your side in the primary points of contention(your claims of Broly's power continuously rising, and DBZ'ers being FTL), then I'll be more than happy to take it up again. But otherwise(i.e. if not containing evidence to support one, or both of those claims), I'll consider your next post as a concession on those points.

#218 Oltobaz

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 11:37 AM

Nah, these low showings really are coming reliefs. You're correct, their Ki level is lower when asleep, you're correct up to a point.. When Krillin threw a rock at Goku, Goku was in his Super Saiyan form. I think you know where I'm coming from. You're trying to rationalize absurd comic relief scenes, I suggest you don't...

Sentry power level does fluctuate, I'd say he's always powerful however. He's at his weakest as Robert Reynolds. As Sentry, he's not ├╝ber powerful all the time, but he's not as weak as anormal human, no matter his emotions.

I truthfully believe I've brought the evidence you're claiming I haven't brought. At this point, I'm of the opinion as well there's little either of us can bring to the table, so certainly think we should stop right there.

Another poster earlier indicated Gotenks feat was ambiguous. For all he knew, Gotenks might be FTL, or not, he just doesn't know. I tend to value open minds like this. Likewise, I've shown repeatidly I acknowledged the Marvels could certainly deal some damage, latest example was when you brought up Iron Man sonics. If someone is stubborn around these parts, I think it's you, though you reluctantly acknowledged Tien might actually be an Alien, took you long enough. You, might not be convinced by my evidence, fair enough, but saying I haven't brought any when I have seems outrageous. So, let's just agree to disagree, and leave it at that..

#219 God-Speed_88

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 01:01 PM

Hear me out on this, I know I could be wrong, but I read something interesting. Now this is in concern to reflex speed, not traveling speed.

- There is a panel in which Piccolo fires a blast and blows up the moon in a flash.

- Raditz is then seen being able to dodge Piccolo's blasts at a relatively close range.

- Now in the Freeza saga, Piccolo admits that he can't see Freeza's blasts because they are so fast (obviously then a lot faster than his beams which was able to travel to the moon and blow it up in a flash).

- When Goku reached SSj1 he was then able to dodge freeza's blasts with ease.

- This all happened in the Freeza saga, now imagine the power increase Goku has had especially in his SSj3 form.

So food for thought, or just clutching straws?

I'm interested in hearing if Methos would consider Goku SSj3 a top tier if he was in the M.U?

#220 Oltobaz

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 01:57 PM

Godspeed,

Piccolo feat is akin to Master Roshi feat, which I brought up. I like how you linken his feat with his Radditz fight, there's definitely something there, although we do not know whether he's blasting Radditz at the same speed. For all we know, he very well might, seeing how he blew up the Moon at FTL. As far as I'm concerned, you're preaching to the choir, of course.
The moment we agree they can bust up planets FTL at Master Roshi's level or Piccolo's (at such an early stage), there's more than room for thought. How many times have we seen DBZer's evading through Ki blasts? Some of those were bound to be as fast or faster (and I'm leaning towards faster due to DBzer's getting stronger and stronger over the course of the manga/series) as the FTL blasts we mentioned. As fast or faster as Broly's energy ball we saw destroying a planet in the video you posted. The bottom line, they can evade FTL blasts, so they have FTL reflexes, hence they move at FTL (since these reflexes are put into good use), hence they can land physical blows at FTL, as a logical consequence.

And then, there's Cell feat, who's very proud of his own speed at a stage when he's not able yet to use IT. He specifically mentions IT while saying so, Goku's main advantage in this fight, so that the Saiyan realizes his one trump card won't be that useful, in light of his "damn good" speed. How good can it be, if it doesn't really have to pale that much when compared to IT? There's definitely something there, despite what Methos seems to think.

Finally, there's Broly and his ever increasing power level, which includes speed, of course.




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