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The Batman Vs. The Punisher. Winner Takes All!


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#41 force_echo

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 02:10 PM

Did you see the damn scan I posted where Batman blocks a bullet? First off, you're are assuming that Wrath wasn't aiming the minigun. Second off, you've clearly run out of arguments if you say a normal shmuck could dodge minigun fire. Oh, and here's the scan.

detective526-batsilenced1.jpg

Not if he doesn't know where he is. Batman disappears into the maze of favelas. He will then be able to ambush Punisher, or at least nail him with a batarang. Punisher is not nearly agile enough to dodge such a weapon.

No, I saw a scan where a guy misses the body shot and hits his glove, if that's what you mean. He explicitly states that he's letting the rapid fire rate take care of Batman, and if you actually look at where he's shooting, he's obviously not trying to aim, he literally shot the entire freaking top of the building, that's a grouping of like 100 square feet.

And Punisher could disappear into "the maze of favelas" too, seriously, this guy is as resourceful, as stealthy as Batman, except he has better equipment and he's more ruthless. And a batarang? Are you serious? I take your Batarang and raise you a .45 ACP to the head. Even if he doesn't want to kill Batman, he'll take out his knees and elbows or something.

That's not point blank. And I'm assuming that there's a page in between that one and the one you posted before, because Batman's at a different distance and knows where the detective is. The detective doesn't shoot him at that range, so that scan is useless.

#42 force_echo

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 02:12 PM

Justice League issue 1, dodging machine gun fire from a helicopter while chasing a para demon.

Again, that's not him dodging jack, that's him rolling, and the copter missing. Dodging a bullet would be if the comic clearly indicates a bullet being fired and then Batman moving out of the way of the clear flight path of that bullet.

#43 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 02:15 PM

For example.

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=7RppfiZ50jQ

Clearly bullet dodging around 2:40-2:50 mark.

#44 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 02:26 PM

Again, that's not him dodging jack, that's him rolling, and the copter missing. Dodging a bullet would be if the comic clearly indicates a bullet being fired and then Batman moving out of the way of the clear flight path of that bullet.

I'm not saying he is dodging the actual bullets, but rather to show he can dodge fire from a mounted machine gun that has air advantage.

#45 thanosisawesome

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 02:40 PM

No, I saw a scan where a guy misses the body shot and hits his glove, if that's what you mean. He explicitly states that he's letting the rapid fire rate take care of Batman, and if you actually look at where he's shooting, he's obviously not trying to aim, he literally shot the entire freaking top of the building, that's a grouping of like 100 square feet.

And Punisher could disappear into "the maze of favelas" too, seriously, this guy is as resourceful, as stealthy as Batman, except he has better equipment and he's more ruthless. And a batarang? Are you serious? I take your Batarang and raise you a .45 ACP to the head. Even if he doesn't want to kill Batman, he'll take out his knees and elbows or something.

That's not point blank. And I'm assuming that there's a page in between that one and the one you posted before, because Batman's at a different distance and knows where the detective is. The detective doesn't shoot him at that range, so that scan is useless.


Well, if that scan doesn't convince you, here's one where Batman blocks machine gun fire with his arm.

batbulletblock.jpg

Seriously? Punisher is as stealthy as Batman? No, not at all. And while I have PROVEN through multiple scans and with evidence that Batman is fast enough to dodge bullets, there is no evidence that Punisher wouldn't get dropped with a batarang.

Here's another interesting tidbit.

year2_batbulletdodge.jpg

Basically, Punisher will have an extremely hard time hitting Batman, but Batman will have no trouble closing with Punisher or hitting him with tranqs or Batarangs, which Punisher is not fast enough to dodge.

#46 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 02:43 PM

There's bullet dodging and then there's aim dodging. Different things.

#47 thanosisawesome

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 02:46 PM

There's bullet dodging and then there's aim dodging. Different things.


Diving into a hail of AK-47 fire isn't bullet dodging? Blocking submachine gun fire with your arm is certainly bullet timing.

#48 bigballerju

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:51 PM

Punisher is just as good as Batman with prep and is a master with setting traps Batman won't see coming because he doesn't have the high class miltary experience Punisher does. Punisher is a master with explosives and can create all sorts of traps with them. Punisher has weapons ranging from sniper rifle, rocket launcher, machine guns, grenades, C4, and all those heavy weapons as well as equipment he will definitely be able to have in his van.

Have the people who are focusing on Batman dodging bullets forgetting Punisher has fought Spiderman and Daredevil on separate occasion who are faster? Seriously are people just ignoring Punisher's feats because he is going against Batman here the fan favorite? Punisher is going to have a hard time hitting Batman? Punisher was capable of fighting Spiderman who is faster and stronger. Punisher can fight Daredevil who moves faster then Batman. Punisher's high class miltary experience and ruthlessness allows him to compete against those two. Spiderman could blitz Punisher honestly but its been proven Punisher's ruthlessnes prevails because he catches Spiderman off guard with attacks such as a flash grenade to the face for example he won't see coming. Also Punisher isn't afraid to pull the trigger. Seriously Punisher managed to set a explosive trap that not even Ironman in his armor could detect in Punisher War Zone issue 5. Hell the man entered Stark's building with all it's defenses and took out Tony Stark when he wasn't in his armor.

Batman is going to get blown to hell multiple times before he reaches Punisher and it will be explosive traps Batman won't see coming at all because he does't have the experience Punisher does in that field. By then Punisher could just leave Batman a bloody mess on the floor or he could just put a bullet in his head to put him out his misery.

#49 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 05:10 PM

I lean slightly toward Batman, not because of any bullet-dodging but because he'll be using stealth and deception the whole time to keep Castle from having a legitimate target. Showing himself to a skilled gunman like Punisher would be tantamont to suicide.

Here's a little on the physics of "bullet timing."

Ammunition Muzzle Velocity At 10' At 25' At 100' At 300'
9mm Parabellum (Uzi Submachine gun) 1300 ft/sec 0.007 sec 0.019 sec 0.076 sec 0.23 sec
.357 Magnum (.357 Colt Python) 1600 ft/sec 0.0076 sec 0.015 sec 0.06 sec 0.19 sec
5.56×45mm NATO (M-16 Rifle) 3100 ft/sec 0.003 sec 0.008 sec 0.03 sec 0.09 sec

I used 2 common handgun rounds and one common assault rifle round that are fairly representative of what Batman has to face.

The discipline of Mental chronometry shows that the fastest possible human reaction time is 330 miliseconds. In other words, the human body starts to act 0.33 seconds after you see the gun firing. Let's give Batman the benefit of the doubt and say that he can react a little faster than humanly possible at 0.25 sec.

The world's fastest man, Usain Bolt, can move his body at about 41 ft/sec (28 mph). It is theoretically possible to move at 59 ft/sec (40 mph.) If we allow Batman this higher theoretical speed, and say that he has to move just 8" to twist his body out of the path of the bullet, it will take him foot to better this 28 mph he could do it in 0.013 seconds.

So, the time it would take Batman to get out of the path of a bullet from the moment he sees it would be 0.25 + 0.013 = 0.263 seconds. These are ideal conditions and give Batman both better reflexes and higher body speed than has ever been recorded for any human being.

Plug that into our table of ammunition and we get this:


Can Batman dodge 9mm Parabellum bullets at 300'? No, it would hit him 0.03 seconds before his nervous system could process the image of the gun firing and tell his body to move. Since this is the slowest bullet at the greatest range, I won't go into the others. The bottom line is that you have to be MUCH faster than it is possible for a human being to be to have even a chance.

Unless we say that Batman (or Daredevil, or Nightwing, or Snake Eyes or anyone else who gets touted as a "bullet timer") has genuinely superhuman speed and reflexes (as in at least 10 times faster than the best human athlete) the idea of dodging a bullet after it's been fired is humanly impossible. It makes for a fun scene, but IMO should be taken as the writer or artist having fun and not meant to be evidence.

Can Spiderman or Deathstroke dodge bullets? Could be, it depends on how fast their reflex time is and I don't have any data on that. Can Flash or Wonder Woman? Sure. Can Iron Fist? Yes, but only when he uses his power to speed his reflexes to superhuman levels.

#50 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 05:13 PM

Blocking submachine gun fire with your arm is certainly bullet timing.


Yes, but what we see in that scan is much harder than dodging or blocking a single bullet. I didn't count but it looks like he swats at least half a dozen bullets out of the air. To be able to do that, he would need to be hundreds of times faster than the fastest human.

#51 thanosisawesome

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 05:21 PM

I lean slightly toward Batman, not because of any bullet-dodging but because he'll be using stealth and deception the whole time to keep Castle from having a legitimate target. Showing himself to a skilled gunman like Punisher would be tantamont to suicide.

Here's a little on the physics of "bullet timing."

Ammunition Muzzle Velocity At 10' At 25' At 100' At 300'
9mm Parabellum (Uzi Submachine gun) 1300 ft/sec 0.007 sec 0.019 sec 0.076 sec 0.23 sec
.357 Magnum (.357 Colt Python) 1600 ft/sec 0.0076 sec 0.015 sec 0.06 sec 0.19 sec
5.56×45mm NATO (M-16 Rifle) 3100 ft/sec 0.003 sec 0.008 sec 0.03 sec 0.09 sec

I used 2 common handgun rounds and one common assault rifle round that are fairly representative of what Batman has to face.

The discipline of Mental chronometry shows that the fastest possible human reaction time is 330 miliseconds. In other words, the human body starts to act 0.33 seconds after you see the gun firing. Let's give Batman the benefit of the doubt and say that he can react a little faster than humanly possible at 0.25 sec.

The world's fastest man, Usain Bolt, can move his body at about 41 ft/sec (28 mph). It is theoretically possible to move at 59 ft/sec (40 mph.) If we allow Batman this higher theoretical speed, and say that he has to move just 8" to twist his body out of the path of the bullet, it will take him foot to better this 28 mph he could do it in 0.013 seconds.

So, the time it would take Batman to get out of the path of a bullet from the moment he sees it would be 0.25 + 0.013 = 0.263 seconds. These are ideal conditions and give Batman both better reflexes and higher body speed than has ever been recorded for any human being.

Plug that into our table of ammunition and we get this:


Can Batman dodge 9mm Parabellum bullets at 300'? No, it would hit him 0.03 seconds before his nervous system could process the image of the gun firing and tell his body to move. Since this is the slowest bullet at the greatest range, I won't go into the others. The bottom line is that you have to be MUCH faster than it is possible for a human being to be to have even a chance.

Unless we say that Batman (or Daredevil, or Nightwing, or Snake Eyes or anyone else who gets touted as a "bullet timer") has genuinely superhuman speed and reflexes (as in at least 10 times faster than the best human athlete) the idea of dodging a bullet after it's been fired is humanly impossible. It makes for a fun scene, but IMO should be taken as the writer or artist having fun and not meant to be evidence.

Can Spiderman or Deathstroke dodge bullets? Could be, it depends on how fast their reflex time is and I don't have any data on that. Can Flash or Wonder Woman? Sure. Can Iron Fist? Yes, but only when he uses his power to speed his reflexes to superhuman levels.


It's a comic.

#52 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 06:09 PM

Exactly, which is why Punisher wins thanos.

#53 KidStranglehold

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 06:27 PM

I lean slightly toward Batman, not because of any bullet-dodging but because he'll be using stealth and deception the whole time to keep Castle from having a legitimate target. Showing himself to a skilled gunman like Punisher would be tantamont to suicide.

Here's a little on the physics of "bullet timing."

Ammunition Muzzle Velocity At 10' At 25' At 100' At 300'
9mm Parabellum (Uzi Submachine gun) 1300 ft/sec 0.007 sec 0.019 sec 0.076 sec 0.23 sec
.357 Magnum (.357 Colt Python) 1600 ft/sec 0.0076 sec 0.015 sec 0.06 sec 0.19 sec
5.56×45mm NATO (M-16 Rifle) 3100 ft/sec 0.003 sec 0.008 sec 0.03 sec 0.09 sec

I used 2 common handgun rounds and one common assault rifle round that are fairly representative of what Batman has to face.

The discipline of Mental chronometry shows that the fastest possible human reaction time is 330 miliseconds. In other words, the human body starts to act 0.33 seconds after you see the gun firing. Let's give Batman the benefit of the doubt and say that he can react a little faster than humanly possible at 0.25 sec.

The world's fastest man, Usain Bolt, can move his body at about 41 ft/sec (28 mph). It is theoretically possible to move at 59 ft/sec (40 mph.) If we allow Batman this higher theoretical speed, and say that he has to move just 8" to twist his body out of the path of the bullet, it will take him foot to better this 28 mph he could do it in 0.013 seconds.

So, the time it would take Batman to get out of the path of a bullet from the moment he sees it would be 0.25 + 0.013 = 0.263 seconds. These are ideal conditions and give Batman both better reflexes and higher body speed than has ever been recorded for any human being.

Plug that into our table of ammunition and we get this:


Can Batman dodge 9mm Parabellum bullets at 300'? No, it would hit him 0.03 seconds before his nervous system could process the image of the gun firing and tell his body to move. Since this is the slowest bullet at the greatest range, I won't go into the others. The bottom line is that you have to be MUCH faster than it is possible for a human being to be to have even a chance.

Unless we say that Batman (or Daredevil, or Nightwing, or Snake Eyes or anyone else who gets touted as a "bullet timer") has genuinely superhuman speed and reflexes (as in at least 10 times faster than the best human athlete) the idea of dodging a bullet after it's been fired is humanly impossible. It makes for a fun scene, but IMO should be taken as the writer or artist having fun and not meant to be evidence.

Can Spiderman or Deathstroke dodge bullets? Could be, it depends on how fast their reflex time is and I don't have any data on that. Can Flash or Wonder Woman? Sure. Can Iron Fist? Yes, but only when he uses his power to speed his reflexes to superhuman levels.


I don't believe comics go by real life logic. And I know this is pretty much irrelevant but Batman has trained his body to peak human by doing the most insane things by like trying to breath in space. Just saying, I know it is irrelevant.

#54 KidStranglehold

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 06:28 PM

Also how do you guys like this match? Do you think I made it even?

#55 bigballerju

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 06:59 PM

Yea its a even fight regardless of characters like Batman being a fan favorite and people forgetting there are a lot of characters just as good as him.

#56 xLEGACYx

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 08:11 PM

Well everyone using Punisher's weapons as his advantage are just plain wrong. Punisher can not use any explosive that Batman has not encountered or used himself. While Punisher is good at traps, look at the people that set traps all the time that are considered just as smart as Bats. (Joker, Riddler, Bane, Ra's, Deathstroke, etc.)

Punisher is essentially a hero version of Deathstroke or Bane with no venom. Bane and Deathstroke are just as smart and skilled in all things Punisher is. As far as Bane goes, Batman routinely beats him unless Bane prepares for months. Deathstroke only wins due to his superior physical attributes and he uses 9 times more brain power with just as much training as Punisher.

It would not be easy by no means but Batman would win.

#57 thanosisawesome

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 08:30 PM

Exactly, which is why Punisher wins thanos.


How does that make Punisher win?

#58 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 09:06 PM

I think it's a good match (the Batcave in Brazil made be chuckle) and I don't want to ruin anyone's enjoyment of Batman by adding real world logic to the discussion. I thought the scene in the Keaton movie where Batman parried a bullet was fun. I don't mind the writers or the artists pushing what's realistic sometimes, if it's done to create a really cool scene. I don't like it when it's clearly a writer who is too lazy to come up with a more realistic way for Batman to win a fight, but that's a different conversation.

So when it's a matter of enjoying the story, yeah, it's just a comic.

But when it comes to a debate, I don't think that carries much weight. We're trying to make points here. That doesn't work if you dismiss logic and the facts of how the world works. There's nothing logical about picking and choosing only the arguments that favor your position and dismissing the ones that don't.

#59 KidStranglehold

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 09:08 PM

I think it's a good match (the Batcave in Brazil made be chuckle) and I don't want to ruin anyone's enjoyment of Batman by adding real world logic to the discussion. I thought the scene in the Keaton movie where Batman parried a bullet was fun. I don't mind the writers or the artists pushing what's realistic sometimes, if it's done to create a really cool scene. I don't like it when it's clearly a writer who is too lazy to come up with a more realistic way for Batman to win a fight, but that's a different conversation.

So when it's a matter of enjoying the story, yeah, it's just a comic.

But when it comes to a debate, I don't think that carries much weight. We're trying to make points here. That doesn't work if you dismiss logic and the facts of how the world works. There's nothing logical about picking and choosing only the arguments that favor your position and dismissing the ones that don't.


Thanks and I now fully understand your point. :)

#60 treacherous

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 09:29 PM

I think it's a good match (the Batcave in Brazil made be chuckle) and I don't want to ruin anyone's enjoyment of Batman by adding real world logic to the discussion. I thought the scene in the Keaton movie where Batman parried a bullet was fun. I don't mind the writers or the artists pushing what's realistic sometimes, if it's done to create a really cool scene. I don't like it when it's clearly a writer who is too lazy to come up with a more realistic way for Batman to win a fight, but that's a different conversation.

So when it's a matter of enjoying the story, yeah, it's just a comic.

But when it comes to a debate, I don't think that carries much weight. We're trying to make points here. That doesn't work if you dismiss logic and the facts of how the world works. There's nothing logical about picking and choosing only the arguments that favor your position and dismissing the ones that don't.


I freakin like this guy.




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