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The Batman Vs. The Punisher. Winner Takes All!


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#241 thanosisawesome

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:28 PM

All my sources put the speed of a 9mm shell at 681 mph, speed of sound at 761 mph. And again, it's a comic. Basic logic most cases doesn't apply in comics. That's why Batman leg presses over a ton. That's why an alien can gain the powers of flight from the sun. That's why there're martians with telepathy. And that's why Batman could dodge bullets, as I posted numerous scans of him doing.

Glock- Muzzle Velocity = 375 m/s, 9x19mm Parabellum. Do better research.

Huh. Conceded. But I will address that in the next point.

It doesn't matter if it's a comic or not, you still go with the most reasonable explanation. If I wake up today with my neck sore, there are a couple of explanations. One explanation is that I was abducted by aliens in the middle of the night and had my tissues probed to extract DNA to destroy the human race. Another explanation is that I slept in bed wrong. You can't prove that I didn't get abducted by aliens, but guess which assumption you go with? You haven't shown a single scan of Batman dodging a bullet, no matter how many times you insist you have, despite not being able to prove so.

I have shown multiple scans of Batman dodging bullets, such as the one below. And if I lived in the DC Universe, I would seriously consider the former cause of next sores.

I'm talking about the one where the police shoot through the wall, and if you look at Batman's position, he clearly moved out of the bullets path.

Well, I was clearly talking about the other scan where he beats up a mob of other police officers. In that scan, the police are not willing to fire, Punisher will be. And nothing's "clear" about it, unless you want to make the claim that Batman has Spider-Sense.

Well, then how do you explain the other scan I posted? It doesn't count as proving me wrong to ignore the evidence I post proving me wrong.

Here is Superman and Martian Manhunter stating that they cannot see Batman

Still no proof that Superman's using X-Ray vision, or that that's because of Batman's suit. That building could have lead shielding or lead piping that prevents Supes from seeing Batman. Also, like I've said before, in Superman/Batman, Superman was able to discern Bruce's identity and identify him using X-Ray vision, so where's the defe

If Superman were looking for Batman, he wouldn't say "huh, to my naked eye without using powers, I can't see him. How impressive." Superman would be looking for him with x-rays, and he also wouldn't say Batman amazes him because he's happened to be standing behind a lead wall.

Yes, a direct headshot will kill him with an AP round. But he says nothing about it punching through multiple layers of armor.

Now you're just making shit up. He said nothing about a headshot. In fact, the bullet struck him in the middle of the back, and he said that if it was armor piercing it would have killed him. Besides, even if it is only the head, the Punisher can get headshots easily anyway, and he can shoot Bruce in the face, you know, the part that isn't armored.

But, no matter how much you deny it, I did post scans of Batman bullet timing.

He's shot someone's eyeball out over a mile away before.

And you're saying that Batman's feats are impossible. For some reason, Punisher's feats are always valid, Batman's are not.

Obviously he can do one of those things, because I have posted scans of him dodging bullets.

You haven't shown a single scan of a confirmed bullet dodge. How can he dodge something that's literally impossible to see and hear? How can Batman, in that scan with the police officers and Wrath, dodge a bullet when he's not facing the right direction. You could say that he has Spider-Sense and precognitive hearing, and that it's a comic book so the writer made up superpowers for Batman on the fly, and you can also say that the officers simply missed, which is fully supported by how their shots are going sideways as opposed to vertical. Sorry, but my explanation has evidence, and is leagues more reasonable. You lose.

So Batman punching a bullet in the air, blocking machine gun fire with his arm, dodging a point blank pistol shot, leaping towards an elite Russian assassin with and AK-47 showing bullets moving through his previous location. This is going to sound ridiculous, but we are debating comics. It is not much of a stretch. Batman dodging bullets may not make sense to you, but I showed scans of it happening.

Also, you still haven't explained why Batman hasn't dodged bullets in the cases where he was actually hit by them.

Because then the story would be boring. Same reason Darkseid doesn't kill Superman.



#242 force_echo

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 11:31 AM

I have shown multiple scans of Batman dodging bullets, such as the one below. And if I lived in the DC Universe, I would seriously consider the former cause of next sores.

Even if you lived in the DC Universe, the second assumption is the more reasonable and sound one to to make, which seems a fundamental concept you, for some reason, cannot comprehend.

Well, then how do you explain the other scan I posted? It doesn't count as proving me wrong to ignore the evidence I post proving me wrong.

I've already proved that scan wrong, namely that the only way you could make the case of Batman dodging the bullets is that he has spider-Sense or can see into the future, even if he does have the superhuman reflexes to dodge it.

If Superman were looking for Batman, he wouldn't say "huh, to my naked eye without using powers, I can't see him. How impressive." Superman would be looking for him with x-rays, and he also wouldn't say Batman amazes him because he's happened to be standing behind a lead wall.

Um, he might not have known about the lead. In Action Comics 514 he thought a villain was transparent to X-Rays, when in reality he was just hiding in a network of lead piping. In either case, you cannot prove that Superman was using his X-ray vision, or explain why Superman was able to detect him with x-rays in Superman/Batman. Stop speculating, you're standing on thin ice as it is.

But, no matter how much you deny it, I did post scans of Batman bullet timing.

Except that you didn't. Every single scan posted I've already addressed, and you've already speculated on. You haven't proven anything. I've already adressed the bullet which hit Batman's glove which you say he blocked (he obviously didn't). If there are any scans I haven't already addressed, then bring them up, until then, stop touting Batman's bullet-dodging abilities when you haven't proven shit. You haven't posted a single scan like the one I posted, which is clear evidence of bullet dodging because the bullet is fired before Wesley deflects it.

#243 sirmethos

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 12:26 PM

As strange as it is for me to say it, it's great to see Force being the voice of reason.

@Force, I would "like" the majority of the posts you've made in this thread, but I'm kinda lazy at the moment. I'll try to get around to it at a later point. It kinda rare that we are in complete agreement, but in this case, it seems like we are :)

#244 Dark Spider-man

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:27 PM

Just curious, didn't Batman beat the JLA and he beat Darkseid? Not picking a side but I heard he did.

#245 bigballerju

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 04:22 PM

Batman didn't beat Darkseid in a fight. He simply outsmarted him by rigging his planet to blow up if he didn't release Supergirl. Batman has beaten the JLA once though I can't remember how it played out at the moment. However Punisher has fought heavy hitters like Spiderman, Hulk, he took on the Avengers himself recently, and more. Both characters feats are very close to each other.

#246 thanosisawesome

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 06:02 PM

I have shown multiple scans of Batman dodging bullets, such as the one below. And if I lived in the DC Universe, I would seriously consider the former cause of next sores.

Even if you lived in the DC Universe, the second assumption is the more reasonable and sound one to to make, which seems a fundamental concept you, for some reason, cannot comprehend.

Well, then how do you explain the other scan I posted? It doesn't count as proving me wrong to ignore the evidence I post proving me wrong.

I've already proved that scan wrong, namely that the only way you could make the case of Batman dodging the bullets is that he has spider-Sense or can see into the future, even if he does have the superhuman reflexes to dodge it.

But he doesn't have super strength, yet leg presses 2500 pounds. Comics are fundamentally illogical. In the DC universe, it isn't much of a stretch that Batman could dodge bullets, honestly.

If Superman were looking for Batman, he wouldn't say "huh, to my naked eye without using powers, I can't see him. How impressive." Superman would be looking for him with x-rays, and he also wouldn't say Batman amazes him because he's happened to be standing behind a lead wall.

Um, he might not have known about the lead. In Action Comics 514 he thought a villain was transparent to X-Rays, when in reality he was just hiding in a network of lead piping. In either case, you cannot prove that Superman was using his X-ray vision, or explain why Superman was able to detect him with x-rays in Superman/Batman. Stop speculating, you're standing on thin ice as it is.

That scan stands as good evidence to me. If Superman was looking at Batman, then states he can't see him, it is reasonable to believe that Batman is shielded against said x-rays.

But, no matter how much you deny it, I did post scans of Batman bullet timing.

Except that you didn't. Every single scan posted I've already addressed, and you've already speculated on. You haven't proven anything. I've already adressed the bullet which hit Batman's glove which you say he blocked (he obviously didn't). If there are any scans I haven't already addressed, then bring them up, until then, stop touting Batman's bullet-dodging abilities when you haven't proven shit. You haven't posted a single scan like the one I posted, which is clear evidence of bullet dodging because the bullet is fired before Wesley deflects it.

You mean like this one? Bullets fired, Batman ducks under said shot in next panel.


batbulletime3.jpg




#247 bigballerju

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 06:56 PM

Thanos why don't you try showing scans of Batman dodging bullets from someone as highly skilled as Punisher? Don't show scans of stupid criminals not on Punisher's level firing at him. Oh and actually show bullet timing not aim dodging or anything else. Oh and Batman is not shielded against Superman's x-ray vision. Hence why Superman found out Bruce Wayne was Batman by looking through his mask Pre-Flashpoint. In the new 52 we saw that to be the case too when Superman x-rayed Batman's belt and mask in there first encounter. So enough of that.

Batman dodging bullets still means doesn't mean a thing when Punisher could shoot beings who faster then Batman speed and reflex wise.

#248 thanosisawesome

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 07:48 PM

Thanos why don't you try showing scans of Batman dodging bullets from someone as highly skilled as Punisher? Don't show scans of stupid criminals not on Punisher's level firing at him. Oh and actually show bullet timing not aim dodging or anything else. Oh and Batman is not shielded against Superman's x-ray vision. Hence why Superman found out Bruce Wayne was Batman by looking through his mask Pre-Flashpoint. In the new 52 we saw that to be the case too when Superman x-rayed Batman's belt and mask in there first encounter. So enough of that.

Batman dodging bullets still means doesn't mean a thing when Punisher could shoot beings who faster then Batman speed and reflex wise.

Um, how? Punisher's bullets don't fly faster than other peoples. Just his aim is better. And as for the last scan I posted, that was bullet dodging. One panel, thug shoots. Next, Batman ducks. That was bullet timing. And in Detective comics (801-810, one of those) Batman dodges a sniper bullet shot at him from behind.



#249 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 07:52 PM

If Batman is able to have reflexes that are faster than humanly possible it only makes sense that Punisher should have bullets that are faster than it's possible for bullets to be.

We can do this realistically, or we can say it's a comic book and realism doesn't matter. The thing that's not fair or logical is to say that one character is limited by what is realistic and the other is not.

#250 thanosisawesome

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:16 PM

If Batman is able to have reflexes that are faster than humanly possible it only makes sense that Punisher should have bullets that are faster than it's possible for bullets to be.

We can do this realistically, or we can say it's a comic book and realism doesn't matter. The thing that's not fair or logical is to say that one character is limited by what is realistic and the other is not.


True. But if I prove that Batman can dodge bullets as I did, I believe that one must prove that Punisher shoots bullets faster than normal bullets.

#251 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:45 PM

He's been shown hitting people who should be fast enough to dodge his bullets easily, like Spider-man and Burnout. Hitting them should be impossible with normal bullets.

#252 force_echo

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:04 AM

But he doesn't have super strength, yet leg presses 2500 pounds. Comics are fundamentally illogical. In the DC universe, it isn't much of a stretch that Batman could dodge bullets, honestly.

First of all, there are humans out there who can leg press 2500 pounds. Second of all, I don't know if you can read, but even if he could dodge bullets, how would he dodge a bullet when he wasn't even facing the right way? There are two possible explanations: that he has Spider-Sense, and that the cops missed.

That scan stands as good evidence to me. If Superman was looking at Batman, then states he can't see him, it is reasonable to believe that Batman is shielded against said x-rays.

Nope. You can't prove that he's using unblocked X-Ray vision. Besides, concrete proof has been shown that Superman could see Batman through X-Ray vision, both Pre-Flashpoint and New 52. So yeah, still lose.

You mean like this one? Bullets fired, Batman ducks under said shot in next panel.

How do you know that Batman didn't start ducking while the dude was firing bullets, or, considering that that guy was scared as sh*t, missed? Besides, like Dinsdale pointed out, Punisher has nailed confirmed bullet dodgers before who are simply leagues faster than Batman (Spider-Man being one example), and Batman has been shot before (on numerous ocassions), so The Punisher won't have much trouble hitting Batman either way. Especially since the Punisher is probably going to be using lethally accurate automatic weapons fire.

#253 thanosisawesome

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:10 AM

But he doesn't have super strength, yet leg presses 2500 pounds. Comics are fundamentally illogical. In the DC universe, it isn't much of a stretch that Batman could dodge bullets, honestly.

First of all, there are humans out there who can leg press 2500 pounds. Second of all, I don't know if you can read, but even if he could dodge bullets, how would he dodge a bullet when he wasn't even facing the right way? There are two possible explanations: that he has Spider-Sense, and that the cops missed.

There aren't humans out there who can rip out prison bars, or smash through brick walls, or kick through a concrete column after being shot. And again, comics are fundamentally illogical. If I show in a comic Batman dodging bullets, he can dodge bullets.

That scan stands as good evidence to me. If Superman was looking at Batman, then states he can't see him, it is reasonable to believe that Batman is shielded against said x-rays.

Nope. You can't prove that he's using unblocked X-Ray vision. Besides, concrete proof has been shown that Superman could see Batman through X-Ray vision, both Pre-Flashpoint and New 52. So yeah, still lose.

Yeah, I'll concede that point. But it still doesn't discount the possibility for flash bangs.

You mean like this one? Bullets fired, Batman ducks under said shot in next panel.

How do you know that Batman didn't start ducking while the dude was firing bullets, or, considering that that guy was scared as sh*t, missed? Besides, like Dinsdale pointed out, Punisher has nailed confirmed bullet dodgers before who are simply leagues faster than Batman (Spider-Man being one example), and Batman has been shot before (on numerous ocassions), so The Punisher won't have much trouble hitting Batman either way. Especially since the Punisher is probably going to be using lethally accurate automatic weapons fire.

How do I know that in the scan you posted to prove bullet dodging the man with the knife didn't move before the guy shot? I know he didn't miss because if you follow the path of the bullets, if Batman hadn't have ducked they would have hit him. And Spider-Man was hit because he was cocky and underestimated Punisher.



#254 force_echo

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:28 AM

But when there's another, more reasonable explanation that actually makes sense, then he didn't dodge them in that scan.

Except that the Punisher has easily dealt with flashbangs before, and he has them too.

Because there's a motion blur from where his hand was before to blocking the bullet, indicating that he actually moved in that panel, and that he wasn't already in that position.

Lol, first of all, Punisher has tagged Spider-Man with mercy bullets after the incident with the web shooters, the most recent time, Spider-Man considered the Punisher a big enough threat to call the Avengers on his ass, he definitely wasn't underestimating him. Besides that, he's also tagged speedsters far faster than Batman, such as the scan posted earlier in the thread.



#255 Dark Spider-man

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:11 PM

Batman didn't beat Darkseid in a fight. He simply outsmarted him by rigging his planet to blow up if he didn't release Supergirl. Batman has beaten the JLA once though I can't remember how it played out at the moment. However Punisher has fought heavy hitters like Spiderman, Hulk, he took on the Avengers himself recently, and more. Both characters feats are very close to each other.


Not that fight it was another one in the comics. Where like he outsmarted Darkseid and hit him with this laser thingy and Darkseid was all like "you defeated me and whatnot." (Not his actual words). Batman beat JLA with Superman in it right? While Punisher couldn't do anything to Thor.

#256 bigballerju

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 01:22 PM

Batman wouldn't do anything to Thor either.

#257 Dark Spider-man

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 01:42 PM

Batman wouldn't do anything to Thor either.


But he did defeat Superman while fighting thre JLA right? Superman is equivilant to Thor? What I'm saying is. If Batman beat the entire JLA and also Superman that is better than Punisher beating The Avengers excluding Thor. Since sometimes Thor and Superman are considered equals I think Batman pulled a slightly better feat than Punisher.

#258 force_echo

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 02:09 PM

Batman has never beaten Superman. Also, Superman has clearly defined weaknesses to exploit, Thor doesn't.

#259 Dark Spider-man

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 02:44 PM

Batman has never beaten Superman. Also, Superman has clearly defined weaknesses to exploit, Thor doesn't.


Batman beat the JLA, Superman is in the JLA.

#260 sirmethos

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 06:08 PM


Batman beat the JLA, Superman is in the JLA.

 


And when, exactly, did Batman beat the JLA?






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