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Vigilante beat down


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#121 sirmethos

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:27 PM

Batman is kinda at a disadvantage in this fight.

This scenario, is exactly the kind of fight where Batman generally loses, then comes back later, after doing some prep and planning, and wins the rematch.


Batman's big thing is strategy, pre-planning. When Batman is prepared, he is one of the most dangerous people on the planet.

But strategy is useless in this particular scenario. And while Batman is a superb strategist, he is just an above average tactician. Someone like Nightwing, would have a much better chance than Batman here, since Nightwing's specialty is tactics and improvisation, which is exactly what is needed in this fight. Likewise, Daredevil tends to be better at tactics and improvisation.

That said, Batman is the more skilled martial artist of the two, as well as more experienced. But Batman has lost to lesser opponents on several occasions, in "random" encounters, where his strategic skills are useless.

In this particular fight, if it was simply Daredevil vs. Batman, the odds would be in favor of Daredevil.

#122 Darxeth

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:53 PM

You can call it what you want, but Batman was bluffing and Darkseid fell for it.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

I'm on my phone right now so I can't post scans of Batman besting DC's best martial artists at the moment, but I may post some later.

DD was in the Xmen vs. Avengers, and he barely made an impact.
When shit goes down in DC, Batman is almost always a key player.

I see no point in debating. Neither one of us is going to concede to the other's argument.




#123 Darxeth

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:57 PM

Ah Methos, welcome. Heh.

I dunno. If Batman plays his cards right (which he generally does) he'll win.

He's shown gifted improvising skills and tactics recently against the court of owls (particularly when he was first attacked by Dick Grayson's ancestor)


#124 Darxeth

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:07 PM

Actually, I take back what I said in my last post regarding the court of owls and that there is no point in debating.

Batman only survived the attack by Dick Grayson's ancestor because of his prior knowledge of his surroundings and not because of his tactical prowess, which could be chalked up to pre-planning in a sense.

I concede. Batman is at a disadvantage. DD probably has the best shot at taking it.

#125 xLEGACYx

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 09:19 PM

By Batman's own words, Wonder Woman is "the best melee fighter in the world".

a melee fighter can be considered a brawler also. Doesn't mean she is very skilled (which she is).

#126 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 10:11 PM

As for the explosions, Daredevil can selectively block out any sound. That's why he doesn't break down everytime someone shoots a gun. Seriously, a gun is pretty damn loud to the normal human ear, and Daredevil can easily hear heartbeats through soundproof walls, a single gunshot should be enough to absolutely destroy him, right? No. He's dealt with explosions and gunshots before, and he hasn't been incapacitated.


This seems logical. Is it something that has been made explicit by Marvel somewhere?

#127 xLEGACYx

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 10:19 PM

Personally I don't see how someone like Daredevil, who has had trouble in a straight up fight with Kingpin can hang with the likes of Batman.

While I know Kingpin nowadays is no slouch in h2h, daredevil has consistently had trouble with him. Now don't get me wrong. Bats has had trouble with low tier characters as well but he also has much higher showing than daredevil against more experienced or more powerful opponents

#128 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 11:35 PM

DD is not as intelligent or as cunning as Batman.


He's not known for it in the same way, but that's of limited value as evidence. A good test would be to look back on their careers and see who's gotten outmaneuvered or blindsided by clever villains the most often.

My impression (just an impression) is that Batman is more likely to do detailed planning before going into an encounter and DD is more likely to improvise. In a chaotic situation like a battle, improvisation is often as useful as planning.

Hell, Batman has outsmarted/tricked/fooled Darkseid, I'm sure he can do the same to DD.

I'd agree that Batman has the potential to outsmart DD, but it's not a given that he will. DD is a highly intelligent character and Batman is not always successful in outsmarting opponents.

Facing average joes that use explosive weapons does not equate to Batman using explosions.
Seriously, DD has never faced an opponent as skilled as Batman that uses explosions. (to my knowledge)

He's beaten the Punisher, who is a highly clever and resourceful opponent who uses explosives.

and the sound of the explosion isn't what is going to hurt DD, it'll be the force of the explosion.

Batman uses pretty small explosives most of the time, so he'll have to hit DD to hurt him with them.

IIRC DD has been defeated by Bullseye in h2h (correct me if I'm wrong)
if bullseye can defeat him at h2h, Batman can.

I don't remember this ever happening, though it's always a close fight. Even if it is true, it's not good proof. Anyone can lose to a weaker opponent. It's certainly happened to Batman. Black Spider beat him in his first appearance and Daredevil is certainly better than Black Spider.

The utility belt is arguably the reason why Batman wins, as I stated before.

Batman certainly has more weapons at his disposal.

And Batman has held his own against DC's top martial artists too, IIRC.

Yes, though he got his @$$ handed to him the first time he met Richard Dragon.

When the justice league need a master strategist, they rely on Batman.
Hell, a few teams that don't even have Batman listed as member ask him for held from time to time.

In marvel, when have the avengers relied on DD to handle any of their problems?
Or any team for that matter? Recently, that is.

This is good evidence that Batman is the better consultant. It doesn't give us much information about who is the better fighter.

#129 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 11:46 PM

Personally I don't see how someone like Daredevil, who has had trouble in a straight up fight with Kingpin can hang with the likes of Batman.

While I know Kingpin nowadays is no slouch in h2h, daredevil has consistently had trouble with him. Now don't get me wrong. Bats has had trouble with low tier characters as well but he also has much higher showing than daredevil against more experienced or more powerful opponents


It has to do with how the Kingpin has changed. When he first appeared as a Spider-man villain Kingpin was a match for Spidey. Look at their early battles and you'll see he was at least as strong as Spider-man. When Marvel Handbook came out that was the first time they said Spidey was really many times stronger than Kingpin. Since then, they've retconned the early fights so that Spidey was holding back.

When Frank Miller used Kingpin as a Daredevil villain, he wrote him as having Spider-man level strength. Miller liked making DD the underdog by putting him against Spider-man villains. He did the same thing with Doc Ock.

Kingpin has been downgraded, but if Miller had written a Batman-Kingpin crossover back when he was doing DD, Batman would have had all he could handle.

#130 bigballerju

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:06 AM

Dinsdale said it best. Kingpin has strength and durability above regular human levels. Kingpin back then like Dinsdale said was stronger and more durability. Hell even Batman would have a hard time beating him.

#131 xLEGACYx

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:20 AM

Dinsdale said it best. Kingpin has strength and durability above regular human levels. Kingpin back then like Dinsdale said was stronger and more durability. Hell even Batman would have a hard time beating him.

except for he faces Bane, Deathstroke, Croc, etc. that are stronger and some are just as smart as batman.

#132 bigballerju

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:58 AM

None of which Batman can beat in a straight out H2H fight. All which can and are able to completely own Batman. Bane and Deathstroke have owned Batman in battle. Croc he only beats using his equipment and gadgets.

#133 xLEGACYx

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 01:55 AM

He has beaten Bane more than once in h2h. He has held his own against deathstroke and even slade himself said he was the best he had ever faced and his enhanced abilities gave him the win. As for croc you are correct but he has that same equipment here.

#134 ND7

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:45 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong or hell even show me scans, but as far as I recall, Slade beat the crap out of Bruce without even breaking a sweat. I wouldn't excactly call that 'holding his own'. Slade just went to town on him, but hey I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong.

#135 bigballerju

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:49 PM

Batman only beat Bane once in a straight out H2H fight. Batman only beat Deathstroke with the help of Nightwing and Tim Drake. Deathstroke beat Batman without breaking a sweat when he was known as Deathstroke the Terminator. Batman has never beaten Deathstroke in a one on one. Only Dick Grayson has.

#136 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:59 PM

Batman only beat Bane once in a straight out H2H fight. Batman only beat Deathstroke with the help of Nightwing and Tim Drake. Deathstroke beat Batman without breaking a sweat when he was known as Deathstroke the Terminator. Batman has never beaten Deathstroke in a one on one. Only Dick Grayson has.

lolwut? Batman has defeated Bane so many times that he doesn't even seem like a threat. Also Batman has KOed Slade before. He sneaked up on him, and knocked him out with his own rifle. Slade has even said if it weren't for his enhancements, Batman would pwn him.

As for Batman not being good at making plans on the fly? That is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. He's a great tactician, which is partly why he is such a good leader. When do the plans ever go through? They rarely work so he has to change them on the fly. He is one member of the JLA that can always keep a cool head when shit isn't going his way.

#137 KidStranglehold

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 01:02 PM

Can we throw in Batman beating Aquaman in a pure H2H fight? Aquaman is way faster and stronger than Daredevil.

#138 xLEGACYx

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 01:06 PM

Batman only beat Bane once in a straight out H2H fight. Batman only beat Deathstroke with the help of Nightwing and Tim Drake. Deathstroke beat Batman without breaking a sweat when he was known as Deathstroke the Terminator. Batman has never beaten Deathstroke in a one on one. Only Dick Grayson has.

There first encounter was in Deathstroke # 8 or 9 I think. Deathstroke admits that Batman is the best he has ever faced. He also says if it wasnt for his enhanced abilities and healing factor Batman could have won.

#139 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 01:07 PM

This match seems tailored for Batman actually.

I have a Wizard magazine issue circa 1997 with a feature on the JLA. Grant Morrison wrote up how a free for all would go down betwenn Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Batman, Flash, and Kyle Rayner, and Morrison had Batman win it. Batman let the other combatants take each other out before stepping into the fray, which he will be doing here. He is a master of stealth, and even if someone like DD finds him, he will take him out, and move into a new spot. Batman tactically camps.

#140 xLEGACYx

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 01:10 PM

This match seems tailored for Batman actually.

I have a Wizard magazine issue circa 1997 with a feature on the JLA. Grant Morrison wrote up how a free for all would go down betwenn Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Batman, Flash, and Kyle Rayner, and Morrison had Batman win it. Batman let the other combatants take each other out before stepping into the fray, which he will be doing here. He is a master of stealth, and even if someone like DD finds him, he will take him out, and move into a new spot. Batman tactically camps.

The difference here though is all the characters do that quite often. Especially Grendel and Leo.




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