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Apocalypse

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#1 Classic80s

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:31 AM

APOCALYPSE

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I never really knew much about Apocalypse before I played "X-Men: Legends II Rise of Apocalypse." The most I ever saw of him were bits and pieces on the animated 90s X-Men cartoon, and even then as I kid, I remember him being the most creepy and mysterious of the characters but not really knowing who he was. But once I found out, he seemed like one of the most badass villains Marvel had to offer.

So how come Marvel never really built him up like they should've and used him to his absolute? As the saying goes: "You were given a Ferrari and your people treated it like a lawnmower." Pretty much sums up Marvel and Apocalypse.


If ever used to the fullest of his potential, I believe he could be on the same level as Thanos. I mean, people view Thanos as being on a certain level and always talk about him with the utmost respect, as if he's the ultimate badass. Apocalypse never really gets loved on like that. Not even close. But he has the potential to reach that level if only Marvel used him correctly. As is, he's more on the level of Jobberseid than anyone. What gives?



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#2 KidStranglehold

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:06 AM

APOCALYPSE

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I never really knew much about Apocalypse before I played "X-Men: Legends II Rise of Apocalypse." The most I ever saw of him were bits and pieces on the animated 90s X-Men cartoon, and even then as I kid, I remember him being the most creepy and mysterious of the characters but not really knowing who he was. But once I found out, he seemed like one of the most badass villains Marvel had to offer.

So how come Marvel never really built him up like they should've and used him to his absolute? As the saying goes: "You were given a Ferrari and your people treated it like a lawnmower." Pretty much sums up Marvel and Apocalypse.


If ever used to the fullest of his potential, I believe he could be on the same level as Thanos. I mean, people view Thanos as being on a certain level and always talk about him with the utmost respect, as if he's the ultimate badass. Apocalypse never really gets loved on like that. Not even close. But he has the potential to reach that level if only Marvel used him correctly. As is, he's more on the level of Jobberseid than anyone. What gives?



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Just to let you know... Apocalypse is no where on the level of 'Jobberseid', even if Jobberseid has more low showings(which he does not).

At best(IMO) Apocalypse is a global threat.

#3 Classic80s

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 02:33 PM

I meant the level of Jobberseid in the sense that he's basically just a "jobber" and always loses and puts over other characters. It's bull****. Apocalypse is a guy who could be up there with the likes of Pre-Crisis Darkseid and Thanos (maybe not in terms of overall power, but in terms of how badass he could be and what he could accomplish), but Marvel basically just treats him like a lawnmower.

I know Earth is his goal, but he could conquer so much more than that if he really wanted to (and the writers actually gave him his shot). But as is, it's pathetic the way he's used and treated.

#4 KidStranglehold

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 02:47 PM

I meant the level of Jobberseid in the sense that he's basically just a "jobber" and always loses and puts over other characters. It's bull****. Apocalypse is a guy who could be up there with the likes of Pre-Crisis Darkseid and Thanos (maybe not in terms of overall power, but in terms of how badass he could be and what he could accomplish), but Marvel basically just treats him like a lawnmower.

I know Earth is his goal, but he could conquer so much more than that if he really wanted to (and the writers actually gave him his shot). But as is, it's pathetic the way he's used and treated.


Darkseid does not job all the time, where did you get the idea that Darkseid always loses? Every character has low showings, some have them more than others but Darkseid is not one of those characters. If you wanna compare and contrast better track records than Darkseid trumps Apocalypse with ease. In terms of JUST 'Badassness' maybe he is on par with Pre Crisis Darkseid but just 'badassness' alone..Darkseid is actually a universal thread and he has shown to be one unlike Apocalypse.

Its not about the writers not using Apocalypse full potential, its just that Apocalypse isn't on that level because the writers feel he shouldn't be. If Marvel intended Apocalypse to be on the level of Darkseid or even Thanos at least, then they would have already done it. But they didn't and that's why they created Thanos for that purpose to rival Darkseid.

What has Apocalypse done that can make him a universal threat? Marvel does not treat him as a lawnmower, he is just not on the same level as Darkseid or Thanos. Potentially? Maybe...But again Marvel never intended him to be.

#5 Classic80s

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 02:57 AM

Apocalypse isn't on that level because he's never written to be. In my opinion, he's being severely held back. I mean, what makes Thanos and Apocalypse so different? Thanos pretty much pimp-slapped the Universal and all within, but that was only because of the power boosters he got his hands on (Infinity Gauntlet/HOTU/Etc). Who says Apocalypse wouldn't be such a threat if he had that same power? Or worse, because of his totally different objective.

I just think Marvel is being stupid with how they use him. He's easily capable of being on par with Thanos, even without any added power boosters, yet they constantly hold him back via not writing him to be. He's a total boss of a villain, yet they treat him like crap.


#6 sirmethos

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:06 AM

"what makes Thanos and Apocalypse so different? "

1. Personality. Thanos is obsessed with Death, while Apocalypse believes in Survival of the Fittest.

2. Background. Thanos was born, and grew up, in a highly advanced society, among the Eternals on Titan. Apocalypse was born, and grew up, in a primitive tribal society in Ancient Egypt.

3. Powers. While both have obscene physical powers(apocalypse, primarily due to his control over his own molecular structure), telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation and energy manipulation. Thanos is also a Matter Manipulator(a power that pretty much bumps whoever has it, to a higher power-tier).

I'll add more, but I'm on my way out of the door.

#7 KidStranglehold

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:08 AM

Apocalypse isn't on that level because he's never written to be. In my opinion, he's being severely held back. I mean, what makes Thanos and Apocalypse so different? Thanos pretty much pimp-slapped the Universal and all within, but that was only because of the power boosters he got his hands on (Infinity Gauntlet/HOTU/Etc). Who says Apocalypse wouldn't be such a threat if he had that same power? Or worse, because of his totally different objective.

I just think Marvel is being stupid with how they use him. He's easily capable of being on par with Thanos, even without any added power boosters, yet they constantly hold him back via not writing him to be. He's a total boss of a villain, yet they treat him like crap.


1. The difference is Thanos is a powerful Eternal who actually has a connection with Death, while Apocalypse is just a Earth based mutant.
2. True but Thanos is already 10x more powerful than Apocalypse even without the Infinity Gauntlet or HOTU.
3. No Marvel is not stupid, he just didn't intend on him to be on that level. If they did then they would have already put him on that level. Apocalypse is just a main villain for the X-Men while Thanos and Darkseid are villains to people of the cosmics.

#8 sirmethos

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 10:56 AM

1. The difference is Thanos is a powerful Eternal who actually has a connection with Death, while Apocalypse is just a Earth based mutant.
2. True but Thanos is already 10x more powerful than Apocalypse even without the Infinity Gauntlet or HOTU.
3. No Marvel is not stupid, he just didn't intend on him to be on that level. If they did then they would have already put him on that level. Apocalypse is just a main villain for the X-Men while Thanos and Darkseid are villains to people of the cosmics.


1. The connection to Death doesn't matter one way or the other. Nor does the fact that he is an Eternal, aside from the difference in upbringing and culture.

2. Not entirely true. The only point where it is definitively proven that Thanos is more powerful, is by the fact that he is a Matter Manipulator. In terms of physical capabilities, they are pretty much equal, with Apocalypse actually having the potential to be the more powerful of the two. Thanos' baseline for Energy output, is higher. But again, Apocalypse has the potential to be equal to Thanos. In terms of Telepathy and Telekinesis, there is nothing shown from either of them, that puts them definitively above the other, in terms of raw power.

3. You're pretty much making Classic80s' point for him. Yes, Apocalypse is "just a main villain for the X-men", and that is pretty much his point, he has the potential, both in terms of personality, as well as capabilities(skill and power) to be so much more. If used to his full potential, he could easily be a cosmic level threat.

#9 KidStranglehold

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 11:07 AM

1. The connection to Death doesn't matter one way or the other. Nor does the fact that he is an Eternal, aside from the difference in upbringing and culture.

2. Not entirely true. The only point where it is definitively proven that Thanos is more powerful, is by the fact that he is a Matter Manipulator. In terms of physical capabilities, they are pretty much equal, with Apocalypse actually having the potential to be the more powerful of the two. Thanos' baseline for Energy output, is higher. But again, Apocalypse has the potential to be equal to Thanos. In terms of Telepathy and Telekinesis, there is nothing shown from either of them, that puts them definitively above the other, in terms of raw power.

3. You're pretty much making Classic80s' point for him. Yes, Apocalypse is "just a main villain for the X-men", and that is pretty much his point, he has the potential, both in terms of personality, as well as capabilities(skill and power) to be so much more. If used to his full potential, he could easily be a cosmic level threat.


1. I never said it mattered, he asked for the difference's and I gave it...And Marvel has stated dozens of times that Eternal's are really powerful.
2. When has Apocalypse shown raw power that can equal Thanos?
3. No I'm not. Marvel mostly intended on making Apocalypse an X-men villain. No my point is Marvel only intended on Apocalypse to be an Earth based villain. I never said Apocalypse can't reach that level, but he hasn't because Marvel does not need him to.

#10 sirmethos

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 11:47 AM

1. Apocalypse is really powerful as well.
2. In terms of what? Physical power, Energy Manipulation, Telepathy, Telekinesis... ?
3. And again, you're making his point.

#11 KidStranglehold

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 12:15 PM

1. Apocalypse is really powerful as well.
2. In terms of what? Physical power, Energy Manipulation, Telepathy, Telekinesis... ?
3. And again, you're making his point.


1. I know...If he wasn't he wouldn't be able to take on the X-Men now would he...
2. Physical Power:
A.Strength: Debatable...But Thanos has been able to one shot the Thing, overpower(Apocalypse has done this too, but I think he was just using his tech), fight classic Drax, fight almost evenly with warrior madness Thor with power gem, almost match Tyrant in strength, able to knock Captain Marvel from Titan to Earth, etc. Thanos stre
B. Durability: Thanos has way better durability showings than Apocalypse. I never seen Apocalypse survive planet busting explosions unlike Thanos. I shouldn't even get into durability because Thanos has tanked far more powerful blasts from more powerful beings compared to the people Apocalypse fought.
C. Speed: Debatable...But Thanos has shown to react to blitz from fast people, one example being Fallen One.
D. Immortality: Due to his connections with death and being its Avatar he can not die.

Energy Manipulation:
Marvel has offically stated that Thanos energy manipulation is a 6 while Apocalypse is a 3. Thanos shielding have shown to withstand blasts from Lord Mar-Vell, Galactus(even though Galactus second blast would have killed him, but Galactus was impressed that his shields would withstand his blast in he first place), Kosmos, Silver Surfer,etc. Thanos as an whole has shown better energy manipulation than Apocalypse such as healing, taking life force away from another being and giving it to another to make that being into a god,etc. He blasts were even able to knock out Thor and other powerful beings. Thanos like you said shown better matter manipulation.

Telepathy:

Debatable...

Telekinesis:
Debatable...I don't remember Thanos showing or having Telekinesis.

Overall and with showings Thanos is more powerful.

3. *Sigh* Let me explain this again...Classic80's asked why can't Marvel make Apocalypse as powerful as Thanos or Darkseid. I said because Marvel never intended on making him that powerful. Again I never said Apocalypse can't potentially reach that level. Anyone in comics can have a potential and become more powerful. Wonder Man could have potentially have become more stronger than Thor, but that never happened. The point I was trying to make was Marvel never felt like making Apocalypse that powerful. He's been in Marvel for about 27 years...Why have they not done that? Because they don't fell like he should be that powerful. This is not me saying Apocalypse can't become on Thanos level, but Marvel not going to let it happen because they don't feel he should!

#12 sirmethos

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 02:30 PM

"A.Strength: Debatable..."

Not really. Apocalypse is capable of increasing his own strength(and other physical stats) with no upper limit.


"Marvel has offically stated that Thanos energy manipulation is a 6 while Apocalypse is a 3."

Among other characters with a "6" in Energy Projection, according to the official Marvel 'stats', are people like Iron Man, Mandarin, Hank Pym, and Spiral.

The Official 'stats'/grids, are useless.


"Thanos shielding have shown to withstand blasts from Lord Mar-Vell, Galactus(even though Galactus second blast would have killed him, but Galactus was impressed that his shields would withstand his blast in he first place), Kosmos, Silver Surfer,etc."

The majority of the time, Thanos uses technology to enhance his shields. And Apocalypse is an Energy Absorber.


"Overall and with showings Thanos is more powerful."

No, Thanos has better 'feats'. There is a difference.


"*Sigh* Let me explain this again...Classic80's asked why can't Marvel make Apocalypse as powerful as Thanos or Darkseid. I said because Marvel never intended on making him that powerful."

That's true. But with that, you are ignoring his follow up comment. That Marvel are being stupid in how they are using him, that they are holding him(apocalypse) back. And that if they used him to his fullest potential, he could be a threat in the same league as Thanos.

he has the potential to reach that level if only Marvel used him correctly.


I know Earth is his goal, but he could conquer so much more than that if he really wanted to (and the writers actually gave him his shot). But as is, it's pathetic the way he's used and treated.


Apocalypse isn't on that level because he's never written to be. In my opinion, he's being severely held back.

...

I just think Marvel is being stupid with how they use him. He's easily capable of being on par with Thanos, even without any added power boosters, yet they constantly hold him back via not writing him to be. He's a total boss of a villain, yet they treat him like crap.



You keep reiterating the same point, that Marvel never intended for Apocalypse to be a cosmic level threat. And that is exactly Classic80s' point. "Marvel is being stupid with how they use him."

As I said, you're making his point for him.

#13 KidStranglehold

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 02:59 PM

"A.Strength: Debatable..."

Not really. Apocalypse is capable of increasing his own strength(and other physical stats) with no upper limit.


"Marvel has offically stated that Thanos energy manipulation is a 6 while Apocalypse is a 3."

Among other characters with a "6" in Energy Projection, according to the official Marvel 'stats', are people like Iron Man, Mandarin, Hank Pym, and Spiral.

The Official 'stats'/grids, are useless.


"Thanos shielding have shown to withstand blasts from Lord Mar-Vell, Galactus(even though Galactus second blast would have killed him, but Galactus was impressed that his shields would withstand his blast in he first place), Kosmos, Silver Surfer,etc."

The majority of the time, Thanos uses technology to enhance his shields. And Apocalypse is an Energy Absorber.


"Overall and with showings Thanos is more powerful."

No, Thanos has better 'feats'. There is a difference.


"*Sigh* Let me explain this again...Classic80's asked why can't Marvel make Apocalypse as powerful as Thanos or Darkseid. I said because Marvel never intended on making him that powerful."

That's true. But with that, you are ignoring his follow up comment. That Marvel are being stupid in how they are using him, that they are holding him(apocalypse) back. And that if they used him to his fullest potential, he could be a threat in the same league as Thanos.








You keep reiterating the same point, that Marvel never intended for Apocalypse to be a cosmic level threat. And that is exactly Classic80s' point. "Marvel is being stupid with how they use him."

As I said, you're making his point for him.


1. I never really said I was disagreeing with Classic80's. The only thing I disagreed with him about is Darkseid being a jobber.
2. Marvel lists Hank Pyms energy at a 4. And I'm pretty sure it depends on the armor Tony is wearing. And Mandarin with the rings has good energy manipulation.
3. Thanos can absorb energy too.
4. Marvel is not being stupid, because they never meant for him to be on that level. What me and Classic80 are saying is different. He is saying the writers are holding him back and that the writers are not using him correctly. I'm saying the writers are using him as correctly as they are because they are writing him the way he is originally suppose to be written. What I am basically saying the writers are writing just as he needs to be written, while Classic80's thinks the writers are not using him right and are holding him back(which is not true). That's all I'm saying.

#14 sirmethos

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:48 PM

If he has the potential to be 'better', i.e. he is far more powerful, than what Marvel is actually doing with him. Then yes, Marvel is "holding him back". And "being stupid".

Whether they are being stupid now, or they were simply stupid when they created him, making him far more powerful, than what was needed for the purpose they created him, is debatable though.

#15 KidStranglehold

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:03 PM

If he has the potential to be 'better', i.e. he is far more powerful, than what Marvel is actually doing with him. Then yes, Marvel is "holding him back". And "being stupid".

Whether they are being stupid now, or they were simply stupid when they created him, making him far more powerful, than what was needed for the purpose they created him, is debatable though.


The point is when Marvel FIRST created him he was never shown to be a cosmic level threat or someone on the level as Thanos. When Thanos was created he was actually a threat/enemy to almost everyone in the universe...Captain Marvel(At that time was one of the most powerful hero's), Silver Surfer, Thor, Avengers, Fantastic Four, Adam Warlock, Mephisto, Eternity, Odin, In-Betweener,
Kronos,etc..

Apocalypse was never written like that when he was first created, so how are Marvel stupid and how are they holding him back when he was never written like that when he was first created. At least people can make a good case for Gladiator. He is suppose to be 'Marvel's Superman' and he was created to be just that(but better). In Gladiators early days he was pwning the Fantastic Four, destroying planets with just his fists, flying through stars, heat vision hotter than the core of the sun, said to be able to move planets, also said to be able to rip stars a part. Yet ever since then Marvel has not done that, ever since then they used Gladiator as a canon fodder to make other characters(characters that shouldn't even lay a scratch on him) seem more powerful.

Do you see where I'm getting at? Gladiator is not being used to his full potential...Not Apocalypse.

#16 Classic80s

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:56 PM

That's another thing... when Apocalypse augmented Hulk with Celestial Tech and turned him to his horseman, "War Hulk," (who is considered to be one of the strongest Hulks ever, if not the strongest) he basically knocked Juggernaut for a loop and stopped him in his tracks. We all know that's not easily done, if not practically impossible. So.... seeing as how Apocalypse is exponentially more powerful than even his strongest Horseman, War Hulk's showings should give us a glimps into just how powerful Apocalypse truly is. Which, judging by those feats alone, he's much more powerful than Marvel gives him credit for.

Which, considering his consistently terrible showings, is blasphemous. Apocalypse, at the very least, should be a Galaxy Level threat. Who cares if he only wants to focus on Earth.

#17 comic_book_fan

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 06:35 PM

i am not to sure if thanos could beat apocalypse his only clear advantage is matter manipulation which apocalypse could be immune to because he has complete control over his molleculer structure so what ever thanos did to him with that power apocalypse should be able to undo and make it back to a fight using there other powers which are all the same only thanos can't recover as fast as apocalypse.

#18 sirmethos

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:36 PM

The point is when Marvel FIRST created him he was never shown to be a cosmic level threat or someone on the level as Thanos. When Thanos was created he was actually a threat/enemy to almost everyone in the universe...Captain Marvel(At that time was one of the most powerful hero's), Silver Surfer, Thor, Avengers, Fantastic Four, Adam Warlock, Mephisto, Eternity, Odin, In-Betweener,
Kronos,etc..

Apocalypse was never written like that when he was first created, so how are Marvel stupid and how are they holding him back when he was never written like that when he was first created. At least people can make a good case for Gladiator. He is suppose to be 'Marvel's Superman' and he was created to be just that(but better). In Gladiators early days he was pwning the Fantastic Four, destroying planets with just his fists, flying through stars, heat vision hotter than the core of the sun, said to be able to move planets, also said to be able to rip stars a part. Yet ever since then Marvel has not done that, ever since then they used Gladiator as a canon fodder to make other characters(characters that shouldn't even lay a scratch on him) seem more powerful.

Do you see where I'm getting at? Gladiator is not being used to his full potential...Not Apocalypse.


Apocalypse's stated capabilities, is Molecular control of his own body, and the ability to take on extra mass, with no upper limit. Energy manipulation, Absorption, and Generation with an unknown upper limit. Telekinesis in the 100+ ton level. Telepathy powerful enough that he has taken down people like Jean Grey and Exodus. Teleportation(unknown upper limit).

His durability, strength, stamina, and speed, are "potentially limitless". He could physically go up against literally anyone, on an equal footing.

And that's not factoring in all of his other powers.

Yea, he's most definitely being "held back".

At least Gladiator, with his power level depending on his confidence, has a reason for his lower end showings.


i am not to sure if thanos could beat apocalypse his only clear advantage is matter manipulation which apocalypse could be immune to because he has complete control over his molleculer structure so what ever thanos did to him with that power apocalypse should be able to undo and make it back to a fight using there other powers which are all the same only thanos can't recover as fast as apocalypse.


Uh, not completely true.

Thanos has far more experience, he is considerably more intelligent, has access to more advanced technology.

And yes, Thanos can recover just as fast as Apocalypse. His(thanos) own regeneration, combined with his Matter manipulation, ensures that.

#19 comic_book_fan

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:49 PM

Apocalypse's stated capabilities, is Molecular control of his own body, and the ability to take on extra mass, with no upper limit. Energy manipulation, Absorption, and Generation with an unknown upper limit. Telekinesis in the 100+ ton level. Telepathy powerful enough that he has taken down people like Jean Grey and Exodus. Teleportation(unknown upper limit).

His durability, strength, stamina, and speed, are "potentially limitless". He could physically go up against literally anyone, on an equal footing.

And that's not factoring in all of his other powers.

Yea, he's most definitely being "held back".

At least Gladiator, with his power level depending on his confidence, has a reason for his lower end showings.




Uh, not completely true.

Thanos has far more experience, he is considerably more intelligent, has access to more advanced technology.

And yes, Thanos can recover just as fast as Apocalypse. His(thanos) own regeneration, combined with his Matter manipulation, ensures that.

agreed on the experince part unsure about the intellect part and fair enough on the regeneration arguement but apocalypse could possibly take over thanos's tec through his tecnopathy which to my knowledge thanos doesn't have .

#20 Classic80s

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 10:14 PM

Thanos is considerably more intelligent....



How exactly do you gauge their intellect (between Thanos and Apocalypse) and say that one is "FOR SURE" superior to the other? I mean, Apocalypse is brilliant. Thanos can't be that much smarter. :huh:




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