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Rumble 13568 Booster Gold and Blue Beetle (Ted Kord) vs. Power Man & Iron Fist

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#141 Callisto



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Posted 03 March 2013 - 03:15 PM

Match Final Results
Blue Beetle (Ted Kord) and Booster Gold: 4
Power Man & Iron Fist: 8

#142 force_echo


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Posted 03 March 2013 - 07:23 PM

I didn't cite any examples because I haven't read any New 52 titles and am not likely to.

There's an inherent discontinuity between Braniac's and Gold's force field capabilities which is why you can't compare the two even though canonically they might be the same one.

If you can demonstrate that, I'll accept your claims. Until you do, it's all talk.

And there are potential explanations (deterioration over time being one). In any case the demonstrated abilities don't correlate. Doomsday is only one example. There are other examples of beings lesser than Superman being able to break through Booster Gold's force fields, he's a slightly higher than street level character. If you don't believe me, I can provide some. Off the top of my head, the new Blue Beetle (another Street Leveler) was able to break through Gold's force field in New 52 the first time they met. And that was when Reyes was still getting a hang of the suit's power.

If that's the case, I will accept your point that this is a less powerful force field.

Also, his whole suit in its entirety was destroyed when he fought Doomsday. Furthermore, he has a new suit in New 52, this much is stated. So your whole "Anyway, if at some point the writers establish that, in the New 52 continuity this isn't Brainiac 5's belt, or that it isn't as powerful as it has always been before, or that something else has changed, you'll have an argument. At this point, it's just speculatiopn [sic], and 50 years of evidence trumps speculation." is pretty hilarious, because if you knew anything about the character you would know that yes, that exact thing has happened.

Gee, your last reply was condescending but I decided to let it pass. This one is even moreso. I've tried to talk with you in a civil manner but I'm starting to think it's a waste of time.

I didn't know that exact thing had happened. As I said, I haven't read any New 52 titles. If you read my post you may notice that I never offered any New 52 examples. When / if you offer evidence that what you say is correct I'll concede the point.

He can put his thoughts into another's mind, that's the definition of the mind meld.

Where did you get that definition? It sounds more like a definition of mind control. As shown in Iron Fist's series, it's a little more subtle and complicated than putting your thoughts into someone's mind.
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The thoughts could be one of calming. The thoughts could heal. The thoughts could anger or enrage or anything.

While this is theoretically possible, unless it has actually happened, it's just speculation.

You saying it can block mental attacks is speculation.

I didn't say it can block mental attacks, I said we don't know if it can or not. I gave an example of a force field (the Invisible Woman's) blocking telepathy (Jean Grey's.) Iron Fist's mind meld may be different than Jean's, it may operate at a different level of power, it may be magical instead of psionic, or chi may function differently than either of these. We also don't know how Booster's force field compares to Sue's.

You have to prove that it can, I don't prove that it can't. That's how logical reasoning works.

Not exactly. If something is axiomatic, then any exception to the axiom must be proved. For example, it's an axiom that a rock, if dropped, will fall to the ground. If I claim I have a rock that violates this axiom and doesn't fall to the ground, I have to prove that. But when it comes to mental attacks going through force shields there is no axiom. We have a lack of evidence for either point of view. In the absence of evidence it is not logical to prefer either point of view. The only logical position is to admit we don't know and look for more data.

If it's never showed the ability to block psionic attacks, then you don't have jack.

True, but neither of us does.

Force fields are called force fields because they apply physical force, there is nothing that suggests that it has any durability against mental attacks.

What about my example of Sue Richards using her force field to block Jean Grey's telepathy and telekinisis?

You are correct that force fields in SF apply a physical force. effectively they act as a barrier to prevent things from passing through them. There are two sorts of things that SF force fields traditionally block: matter and energy. Matter is pretty obvious, Booster Gold's force field can protect him from solid, liquid, or gaseous attacks (though many SF force fields are somewhat gas permeable so that the people inside them can breathe.) It can also protect him from energy attacks like lasers, lightning, and various and sundry death rays.

If you accept that a force field can block an energy attack then you have to be open to the possibility that it can block psionic energy, or magic energy, or whatever kind of energy you want to call it. That's exactly the reasoning John Byrne used in the FF issue I cited. Sue's force field can block the passage of energy. Jean's telepathy and telekinisis were just another kind of energy the force field was able to block.

Like the Invisible Woman, Booster Gold has a force field that can block both material attacks and energy attacks. It's possible that it could block every kind of energy except mental/psionic (or whatever) energy, but that's not really a logical assumption.

I don't have to prove that the mind meld can work through force fields (which is so ridiculously specific a claim it would be impossible to prove or disprove either way).

Not really. All you have to do is what I did and look for evidence. I found an instance of telepathy failing to penetrate a force field. If you had dug up a story where someone had used telepathy on Booster Gold, or Brainiac 5, and you'd have had a good case. Saturn Girl is a telepath so there's bound to be some evidence about mind to mind communication in some Legion issue. Either she tried to contact Brainy and failed because of his shield, or she was easily able to communicate, in spite of the shield. The Legion has also faced telepathic foes and they must have run up against Brainy's shield. It wouldn't have been terribly hard to find something like that.

It's a shame. If this could have stayed on a civil level it could have been an interesting discussion. Since you've decided to get snarky, that possibility is gone. I've got a low tolerance for being talked down to, I'm afraid.

As for the whole condescending bent, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings (not really), but you acquired the tone first. Don't throw rocks if you live in a glass house.

Well, New 52 is the current canon, so maybe you should learn a little before jumping into debates. As for your first point, I already demonstrated they were different, that's kind of the point between the two paragraphs in case you missed it.

Offer evidence? If you literally just read his biography you would know that after his fight with Doomsday, he got a entirely new suit, bulkier, built by Ted Kord. That happened in Justice League: a New Beginning. Then, Ted Kord had to rebuild ANOTHER entire suit for him after his battle with Overmaster (have I provided "evidence" that this is in no way the same suit?). Then Skeets built him another suit during Extreme Justice. I'm pretty sure Professor Hamilton built Booster Gold an entirely new suit as well. Then New 52, he has a completely new suit and everything (Skeets is an AI inside of his suit instead of as a robot). Yeah, now you know why I said it was ridiculous to use Braniac's force field feats for Gold.

The definition of the mind meld is to join the two consciousnesses. This very act is probably enough to get Gold to lose his concentration (a normal human passed out from it). Also, he can send thoughts into the other mind. He's sent calming thoughts, there's no reason to believe he can't send angry thoughts, that's well within the parameters of the power. Has he? I can't find one, because he's never specifically needed to. It's not just "speculation" it's a valid point.

So why even bring up Invisible Woman's force field? It's obviously a completely useless example.

The point is, you asked me to prove that Iron Fist's mind meld can get through a force field. First of all, like I said, that's a ridiculously specific example to find Fist using the mind meld on someone with an active force field up (he doesn't use it all that much in the first place), and even if I find an instance of someone telepathically communicating with Gold, we still don't know because, as you yourself said, Fist's power can hardly be categorized with every other psionic power like pure telepathy. It's more magical/chi-based in nature. Second of all, the burden of proof is just as much on you to prove that Gold's field can block the mind meld.

Your "Evidence" is functionally useless. Storm's force field has no relevance to Booster Gold's, and Grey's telepathy has little relevance to Iron Fists' mind meld. So yes, it would be an insanely specific example. Also, considering that Braniac 5/Braniac's force field generator isn't the same as current Booster's, no, I couldn't have done that.

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