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Rumble 13568 Booster Gold and Blue Beetle (Ted Kord) vs. Power Man & Iron Fist


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#121 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 05:23 PM

He could time travel dump them. Just saiyan.

#122 bigballerju

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 05:50 PM

Not only that Iron-Fist knocking out Hercules doesn't prove he is as powerful as Doomsday nor does it mean he could break Booster's shield.

#123 force_echo

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 03:00 AM

Again, even if he uses his field and he flies, he still can't beat Fist or Cage because he doesn't have the offensive capability. Also, Danny has ranged attacks in the form of Chi Blasts, so flying isn't that great of an aid. Also, Gold's force field didn't stand up to 1 attack from Doomsday. Also, I'm pretty sure you're missing something with the Braniac example. Either Superboy and Mon-El were weaker, or Booster's field was amped up by Braniac somehow, because that's not consistent with the fields other showings. Also, Gold is naturally reluctant to use the force field as it opens up his immune system for attack.

Iron Fist's ability to control energy fields is new, only being introduced in Immortal Iron Fist, which is probably why he couldn't absorb "containment" energy before. Also, the force field probably wouldn't protect against more arcane abilities, like the Mind Meld.

#124 KidStranglehold

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 04:20 AM

Not only that Iron-Fist knocking out Hercules doesn't prove he is as powerful as Doomsday nor does it mean he could break Booster's shield.


I never said Iron Fist knocking out Hercules meant he is more powerful than Doomsday. I was comparing their striking power...Meaning Iron Fist was able to knock out Hercules who is probably more stronger(strength wise) than Doomsday. If Iron Fist is able to not knockout someone as strong as Hercules than he can possibly get pass the shields. And I think I do remember Gold's shielding being amped.

#125 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 05:36 AM

A couple of good points here.

A ranged attach (Chi blasts) would help even things between Iron Fist and Booster Gold.

Booster's reluctance to use his force field is good to know about. Since this is pretty much the only decisive edge he has in the fight, his reluctance to use it makes a big difference.


You also have several interesting (but thus far unproven) speculations.

It's possible that mind meld could help win the fight if 1) it's been shown to work at a distance and 2) it's been shown to work through force fields. I've seen Iron Fist use the mind meld but only when he's touching someone. Do you have evidence that he can use it through a force field and on a foe he is not touching? If so, that makes a difference. If you don't have evidence it is just speculation and has no value in this discussion.

Your assertion that his new control over energy fields would allow him to take down Booster's shield could be significant, if there is and evidence to support it. Has Iron Fist ever used this ability to disable a force field? If so, was he able to do it to an exceptionally powerful force field? If you have a scan, or at least an issue number that's evidence. If he has not done something like this, it's just speculation and is of no use in this discussion.

Also, I'm pretty sure you're missing something with the Braniac example. Either Superboy and Mon-El were weaker, or Booster's field was amped up by Braniac somehow, because that's not consistent with the fields other showings.


This statement makes me think you haven't been paying attention to my points. You seem to think I am referring to a story in which Booster Gold was fighting Superboy and Mon El with the help of Brainiac. I am not. For one thing, I am talking about Brainiac 5, not Brainiac. Brainiac 5 is a distant descendant of the original Brainiac but they are not the same character. Brainiac 5 is a member of the Legion of Superheroes.

The original Brainiac developed a force field so powerful that not even Superman could break through it. He used this invention regularly through the 50s through at least the 80s.

Brainiac 5 rediscovered the original Brainiac's forcefield. He created a belt that would project the shield around him or others. He even adapted it so the force field could be projected around the Legion clubhouse (yes, they called a clubhouse for a long time.) The belt was Brainiac 5's main weapon for more than 40 years of publication history. It was repeatedly shown to be so powerful that not even Superboy, Supergirl, Mon El, or Ultra Boy could break through. It resisted energy blasts from Lightning Lad, Sun Boy, and Wildfire with no problem. It was one of the few things that could stand up to the Persuader's axe or the blasts of the Emerald Empress's giant eye. The only being I can remember in all the Legion adventures who ever broke through it was Validus, a monstrous being who was powerful enough to take out Superboy or Mon El with a single blow.

At some point, Brainiac 5 donated the belt and his Legion flight ring to a museum. The man who became Booster Gold stole the items, along with other future technology and came back to the late 20th century to become a superhero.

In sum:

It was Brainiac 5 and not the original Brainiac who created the force field belt that Booster used.
At no time has the original Brainiac boosted the power of the belt.
Superboy, Mon El and others who failed to break through the force field were operating at full power.

If you're still certain there's something wrong with my argument, I won't begrudge you your convictions. However, if you want to persuade me that I'm wrong, you'll have to produce some evidence sometime.

#126 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:30 AM

Just for the sake of math...

Um....Any 90 tonner can do that...I would put money down that Namor can easily do that.


The Leaning Tower of Pisa weighs approximately 16,000 tons. Even with the help of gravity, tipping it over would take a pressure of several thousand tons..

Hell here's the Thing holds up a oil rig.

And the Thing is no where near 100 tons. Probably only 80 tons. So I don't know why you're trying to act all macho.


I don't know how much this specific rig weighs, but the Petronius Platform off shore drilling rig weighs 1.2 million tons.

Don't numbers make everything better? :D

#127 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:40 AM

I never said Iron Fist knocking out Hercules meant he is more powerful than Doomsday. I was comparing their striking power...Meaning Iron Fist was able to knock out Hercules who is probably more stronger(strength wise) than Doomsday. If Iron Fist is able to not knockout someone as strong as Hercules than he can possibly get pass the shields. And I think I do remember Gold's shielding being amped.


Let me see if I've go this right...

Doomsday can punch through the force field and Superman can't. You want to show that Iron Fist can punch through the force field. To do this you have to show that Iron Fist can punch as hard as Doomsday and quite a bit harder than Superman.

Iron Fist knocked out a drunken Hercules with a sucker punch. That's evidence that he can punch really hard (so far so good) but you also need to show that Superman is too weak to duplicate this feat. If you either came up with Iron Fist knocking out a Doomsday level character in an actual fight or Superman failing to knock out a Hercules level character who was drunk with a sucker punch it would mean something.

#128 bigballerju

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:54 AM

As usual very good arguements Dinsdale.

#129 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:22 AM

Agreed.

#130 KidStranglehold

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 03:29 PM

Let me see if I've go this right...

Doomsday can punch through the force field and Superman can't. You want to show that Iron Fist can punch through the force field. To do this you have to show that Iron Fist can punch as hard as Doomsday and quite a bit harder than Superman.

Iron Fist knocked out a drunken Hercules with a sucker punch. That's evidence that he can punch really hard (so far so good) but you also need to show that Superman is too weak to duplicate this feat. If you either came up with Iron Fist knocking out a Doomsday level character in an actual fight or Superman failing to knock out a Hercules level character who was drunk with a sucker punch it would mean something.


When did I say Superman can't punch through the force fields???

Also I think you do not understanding my argument. Hercules is stronger than Doomsday(strength wise), yes Hercules was drunk, but still Iron Fist was still able knock him out which was my point. I'm comparing striking power not who is more powerful...And his striking power is so good that he was able to destroy the Shield helicarrier in one blow.

#131 force_echo

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 03:35 PM

Wait a second? Are you seriously using the original Braniac and Braniac 5 feats for the belts for Booster gold? First of all, the fact that the force field can't contain a sluggish doomsday, but can withstand Superman's best hit is inconsistent. Also, Doomsday's strength is comparable to Superman's if not the exact same as per death of Superman. So we know something's wrong. Second of all, there are so many problems with just assuming that. How do you know the belt is the exact same? What if it deteriorates over time? What if Braniac and Braniac 5 had a special interface that improves the belt's ability? Third of all, he doesn't even HAVE the same belt/suit at all anymore. Especially in the New 52 Universe. Hell, New 52, you don't even KNOW if it's Braniac's belt.

Iron Fist can mind meld at a range, he used it to calm a whole crowd before, and extended his chi to calm Coleen when she was being mind controlled. He even demonstrated hypnosis at a range in Immortal Iron Fist. As for whether it can get through the field, why wouldn't it be able to? When has his field ever blocked a psionic attack?

#132 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:06 PM

When did I say Superman can't punch through the force fields???


I said that. He can't. That's something that's been established and demonstrated for more than 50 years in the DC universe.


Also I think you do not understanding my argument.

No, I just disagree with you. There is a difference.

Hercules is stronger than Doomsday(strength wise),

You have never demonstrated this.

yes Hercules was drunk, but still Iron Fist was still able knock him out which was my point.

Yes, I understand. My point is this is doesn't prove what you want it to prove. There were special circumstances that allowed him to knock Hercules out. You have done nothing to demonstrate that Iron Fist could knock out someone of Hercules' level under normal conditions.

It shows that Iron Fist can hit really hard. It does not show that he can hit harder than Superman, or as hard as Doomsday. It does nothing to demonstrate that Iron Fist could punch through the force field.

I'm comparing striking power not who is more powerful...And his striking power is so good that he was able to destroy the Shield helicarrier in one blow.

I have always understood that you were talking about striking power. I've never said that taking out the heli-carrier wasn't impressive, but Superman and Doomsday have greater feats of striking power.

To sum up...

Superman cannot punch throught he force field; only two beings have ever been able to do so: Validus and Doomsday, both of whom can hit harder than Superman.

In order to punch through the force field Iron Fist would need to punch much harder than Superman's best punch.

Taking out the Helicarrier does not prove that that Iron Fist can punch harder than Superman.
Knocking out a drunken Hercules does not prove that Iron Fist can punch harder than Superman.
Nothing you have said offers any evidence that Iron Fist can punch harder than Superman.
Since Iron Fist needs to be able to punch harder than Superman to break through the force field, Ergo: nothing you have said offers any evidence that Iron Fist can break through the force field.

#133 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:11 PM

Wait a second? Are you seriously using the original Braniac and Braniac 5 feats for the belts for Booster gold?



Yes, I am. Canon is canon after all.

Are you suggesting that my argument is invalid because my examples go back 50 years? Let me say it another way: no version of Superman has ever been able to break through any version of this force field.
- Silver Age Superman was not able to break through the Siver Age force field.
- Pre-Crisis Superman was not able to break through the Pre-Crisis force field.
- Post-Crisis Superman was not able to break throught he Post-Crisis forcefield.

Superman's inability to break through this force field has been presented consistently for more than 50 years. It's as well established in Superman lore as the idea that Kryptonite can hurt him, or that he likes Lois Lane.

First of all, the fact that the force field can't contain a sluggish doomsday, but can withstand Superman's best hit is inconsistent. Also, Doomsday's strength is comparable to Superman's if not the exact same as per death of Superman. So we know something's wrong.

I'll agree that there is some inconsistency in the writing. If you want to argue that the writers didn't do their homework on the force field, I'd probably agree. If you want to say they're underselling Booster and his force field to build up Doomsday, I'd probably agree. If you want to call it PIS, I'd probably agree.

But, if you want to suggest that one example of Doomsday breaking through the forcefield somehow trumps more than 50 years of Superman, Superboy, Supergirl, Mon El, etc. failing to do that, I can't agree. There's no logic in that at all.

Second of all, there are so many problems with just assuming that. How do you know the belt is the exact same?

It says so in every linked source on Booster Gold. Are they all wrong? Can you demonstrate that?

What if it deteriorates over time? What if Braniac and Braniac 5 had a special interface that improves the belt's ability?

If they ever do a story that demonstrates one or both of these ideas it true, you'll have a case. Until then, your ideas are pure speculation and carry no weight. "What if" is not evidence of anything.

Third of all, he doesn't even HAVE the same belt/suit at all anymore. Especially in the New 52 Universe. Hell, New 52, you don't even KNOW if it's Braniac's belt.

Does this mean that the example of Doomsday breaking the field you keep bringing up is New 52? Funny, I had the impression is was earlier.

Anyway, if at some point the writers establish that, in the New 52 continuity this isn't Brainiac 5's belt, or that it isn't as powerful as it has always been before, or that something else has changed, you'll have an argument. At this point, it's just speculatiopn, and 50 years of evidence trumps speculation.

Iron Fist can mind meld at a range, he used it to calm a whole crowd before, and extended his chi to calm Coleen when she was being mind controlled.

If you're talking about the time she was controlled by Angar the Screamer; I'm pretty sure he had to touch her. But, I'll take your word on the other example.

So, we know he can use this technique at a distance, but has he ever used this as a weapon? Healing or calming Booster Gold may not be that useful in a fight.

He even demonstrated hypnosis at a range in Immortal Iron Fist. As for whether it can get through the field, why wouldn't it be able to? When has his field ever blocked a psionic attack?

I don't remember any instances of Brainiac 5's shield stopping a psychic attack and I don't remember any instances of a psychic successfully attacking him through it either. Unless someone can come up with evidence of one or the other, it's a big question mark.

I can tell you that in FF vol 1 #289 Sue Richards' force field blocked both Jean Grey's telepathy and telekinisis. That's evidence that some force fields can block psionic energies. There's no way to know whether that would work for Iron Fist and Booster Gold, so either saying it would block him or wouldn't block him would be speculation on our part.

#134 force_echo

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:30 AM

I would like to see some examples of New 52 Superman not being able to break through the force field, because the only time he actually fought Braniac to my knowledge, the force field wasn't that much of a problem. There's an inherent discontinuity between Braniac's and Gold's force field capabilities which is why you can't compare the two even though canonically they might be the same one. And there are potential explanations (deterioration over time being one). In any case the demonstrated abilities don't correlate. Doomsday is only one example. There are other examples of beings lesser than Superman being able to break through Booster Gold's force fields, he's a slightly higher than street level character. If you don't believe me, I can provide some. Off the top of my head, the new Blue Beetle (another Street Leveler) was able to break through Gold's force field in New 52 the first time they met. And that was when Reyes was still getting a hang of the suit's power.

Also, his whole suit in its entirety was destroyed when he fought Doomsday. Furthermore, he has a new suit in New 52, this much is stated. So your whole "Anyway, if at some point the writers establish that, in the New 52 continuity this isn't Brainiac 5's belt, or that it isn't as powerful as it has always been before, or that something else has changed, you'll have an argument. At this point, it's just speculatiopn [sic], and 50 years of evidence trumps speculation." is pretty hilarious, because if you knew anything about the character you would know that yes, that exact thing has happened.

He can put his thoughts into another's mind, that's the definition of the mind meld. The thoughts could be one of calming. The thoughts could heal. The thoughts could anger or enrage or anything.

You saying it can block mental attacks is speculation. You have to prove that it can, I don't prove that it can't. That's how logical reasoning works. If it's never showed the ability to block psionic attacks, then you don't have jack. Force fields are called force fields because they apply physical force, there is nothing that suggests that it has any durability against mental attacks. I don't have to prove that the mind meld can work through force fields (which is so ridiculously specific a claim it would be impossible to prove or disprove either way).

#135 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 02:10 AM

Well then it would appear to be somewhat informative if this is New 52 Booster or not.

Culwych?

#136 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 03:06 AM

I would like to see some examples of New 52 Superman not being able to break through the force field, because the only time he actually fought Braniac to my knowledge, the force field wasn't that much of a problem.



I didn't cite any examples because I haven't read any New 52 titles and am not likely to.

There's an inherent discontinuity between Braniac's and Gold's force field capabilities which is why you can't compare the two even though canonically they might be the same one.

If you can demonstrate that, I'll accept your claims. Until you do, it's all talk.

And there are potential explanations (deterioration over time being one). In any case the demonstrated abilities don't correlate. Doomsday is only one example. There are other examples of beings lesser than Superman being able to break through Booster Gold's force fields, he's a slightly higher than street level character. If you don't believe me, I can provide some. Off the top of my head, the new Blue Beetle (another Street Leveler) was able to break through Gold's force field in New 52 the first time they met. And that was when Reyes was still getting a hang of the suit's power.

If that's the case, I will accept your point that this is a less powerful force field.

Also, his whole suit in its entirety was destroyed when he fought Doomsday. Furthermore, he has a new suit in New 52, this much is stated. So your whole "Anyway, if at some point the writers establish that, in the New 52 continuity this isn't Brainiac 5's belt, or that it isn't as powerful as it has always been before, or that something else has changed, you'll have an argument. At this point, it's just speculatiopn [sic], and 50 years of evidence trumps speculation." is pretty hilarious, because if you knew anything about the character you would know that yes, that exact thing has happened.

Gee, your last reply was condescending but I decided to let it pass. This one is even moreso. I've tried to talk with you in a civil manner but I'm starting to think it's a waste of time.

I didn't know that exact thing had happened. As I said, I haven't read any New 52 titles. If you read my post you may notice that I never offered any New 52 examples. When / if you offer evidence that what you say is correct I'll concede the point.

He can put his thoughts into another's mind, that's the definition of the mind meld.

Where did you get that definition? It sounds more like a definition of mind control. As shown in Iron Fist's series, it's a little more subtle and complicated than putting your thoughts into someone's mind.
Posted Image

The thoughts could be one of calming. The thoughts could heal. The thoughts could anger or enrage or anything.

While this is theoretically possible, unless it has actually happened, it's just speculation.

You saying it can block mental attacks is speculation.

I didn't say it can block mental attacks, I said we don't know if it can or not. I gave an example of a force field (the Invisible Woman's) blocking telepathy (Jean Grey's.) Iron Fist's mind meld may be different than Jean's, it may operate at a different level of power, it may be magical instead of psionic, or chi may function differently than either of these. We also don't know how Booster's force field compares to Sue's.

You have to prove that it can, I don't prove that it can't. That's how logical reasoning works.

Not exactly. If something is axiomatic, then any exception to the axiom must be proved. For example, it's an axiom that a rock, if dropped, will fall to the ground. If I claim I have a rock that violates this axiom and doesn't fall to the ground, I have to prove that. But when it comes to mental attacks going through force shields there is no axiom. We have a lack of evidence for either point of view. In the absence of evidence it is not logical to prefer either point of view. The only logical position is to admit we don't know and look for more data.

If it's never showed the ability to block psionic attacks, then you don't have jack.

True, but neither of us does.

Force fields are called force fields because they apply physical force, there is nothing that suggests that it has any durability against mental attacks.

What about my example of Sue Richards using her force field to block Jean Grey's telepathy and telekinisis?

You are correct that force fields in SF apply a physical force. effectively they act as a barrier to prevent things from passing through them. There are two sorts of things that SF force fields traditionally block: matter and energy. Matter is pretty obvious, Booster Gold's force field can protect him from solid, liquid, or gaseous attacks (though many SF force fields are somewhat gas permeable so that the people inside them can breathe.) It can also protect him from energy attacks like lasers, lightning, and various and sundry death rays.

If you accept that a force field can block an energy attack then you have to be open to the possibility that it can block psionic energy, or magic energy, or whatever kind of energy you want to call it. That's exactly the reasoning John Byrne used in the FF issue I cited. Sue's force field can block the passage of energy. Jean's telepathy and telekinisis were just another kind of energy the force field was able to block.


Like the Invisible Woman, Booster Gold has a force field that can block both material attacks and energy attacks. It's possible that it could block every kind of energy except mental/psionic (or whatever) energy, but that's not really a logical assumption.

I don't have to prove that the mind meld can work through force fields (which is so ridiculously specific a claim it would be impossible to prove or disprove either way).

Not really. All you have to do is what I did and look for evidence. I found an instance of telepathy failing to penetrate a force field. If you had dug up a story where someone had used telepathy on Booster Gold, or Brainiac 5, and you'd have had a good case. Saturn Girl is a telepath so there's bound to be some evidence about mind to mind communication in some Legion issue. Either she tried to contact Brainy and failed because of his shield, or she was easily able to communicate, in spite of the shield. The Legion has also faced telepathic foes and they must have run up against Brainy's shield. It wouldn't have been terribly hard to find something like that.

It's a shame. If this could have stayed on a civil level it could have been an interesting discussion. Since you've decided to get snarky, that possibility is gone. I've got a low tolerance for being talked down to, I'm afraid.

#137 KidStranglehold

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 03:59 AM

You have never demonstrated this.

You people never asked for scans which I said I would post of anyone asked... But anyways...
Lifts Godzilla and throws him.
Posted Image
Posted Image

Carries world.
Posted Image

Lifting the Heavens.
Posted Image


Pulling Manhattan.
Posted Image



These should put Hercules above Doomsday in strength...


Yes, I understand. My point is this is doesn't prove what you want it to prove. There were special circumstances that allowed him to knock Hercules out. You have done nothing to demonstrate that Iron Fist could knock out someone of Hercules' level under normal conditions.

It shows that Iron Fist can hit really hard. It does not show that he can hit harder than Superman, or as hard as Doomsday. It does nothing to demonstrate that Iron Fist could punch through the force field.

What?

I already demonstrated that he was able to knock out Hercules Just because Hercules was drunk doesn't mean he was less powerful but less aware. And again Iron Fist can increase his striking power.


I have always understood that you were talking about striking power. I've never said that taking out the heli-carrier wasn't impressive, but Superman and Doomsday have greater feats of striking power.

To sum up...

Superman cannot punch throught he force field; only two beings have ever been able to do so: Validus and Doomsday, both of whom can hit harder than Superman.

In order to punch through the force field Iron Fist would need to punch much harder than Superman's best punch.

Taking out the Helicarrier does not prove that that Iron Fist can punch harder than Superman.
Knocking out a drunken Hercules does not prove that Iron Fist can punch harder than Superman.
Nothing you have said offers any evidence that Iron Fist can punch harder than Superman.
Since Iron Fist needs to be able to punch harder than Superman to break through the force field, Ergo: nothing you have said offers any evidence that Iron Fist can break through the force field.



1. I never said you thought the Helicarrier feat was unimpressive, I just brought that up.
2. I never said that Iron Fist striking power was on par with Supermans or Doomsday I just brought up Hercules and Iron Fist chi does most the job which he can amp up I believe.
3. Post scans of Superman not being able to break through the force fields because Doomsday has and we've seen way better striking power feats from Superman than Doomsday.
4. Why are you keep bringing up Superman when you have not posted scans of Superman not being able to break through the force fields and it is possible that Gold doesn't even have Brainaics force fields. So you keep bringing up Superman is futile.

#138 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 08:55 AM

Pre New 52, no it is not possible that Gold doesn't have Brainiac 5's force field. It is the same belt.

#139 bigballerju

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:51 AM

Why are you still bringing up Hercules? He isn't in this battle and Iron-Fist knocking him out doesn't mean he is as strong as Hercules.I still see no proof Iron-Fist can break Booster's force field like Doomsday did. Also Nova is right and Booster's origin hasn't changed much. Booster still has the belt and the force field.

#140 KidStranglehold

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:19 AM

Why are you still bringing up Hercules? He isn't in this battle and Iron-Fist knocking him out doesn't mean he is as strong as Hercules.I still see no proof Iron-Fist can break Booster's force field like Doomsday did. Also Nova is right and Booster's origin hasn't changed much. Booster still has the belt and the force field.


Read...Then you will know.

1. Dinsdale Piranha asked me to show how strong is Hercules is compared to Doomsday. I obviously know Hercules isn't in this battle.
2. AGAIN I never said Iron Fist knocking out Hercules meant he was as strong as Hercules. That was just to show Iron Fist striking power which he can amp up even more.
3. The Team one defenders still have not shown proof with scans of Superman not being able to break through the shields.
4. And like Echo's said Iron Fist can use psionic attacks.




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