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Aliens: Colonial Marines-- What Went Wrong?


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#41 RakaiThwei

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:09 AM

I'm saying that AvP is a different universe from the Alien movies. We know for a fact that Prometheus is canon with the alien movies, and if it contradicts AvP, then it's just further evidence.


You are right in saying that the Alien, Predator and AVP universes are three universes. That much is definitely true but what I am saying is that one universe, the AvP universe emcomposes the Alien and Predator films, and the events of all six films have happened. What's different is how Weyland-Yutani was founded, and the fact that Aliens and Predators are in the same universe fighting each other and that the AvP universe has more events involving the two species than the Alien and Predator universes.

However, Prometheus doesn't really knock AvP out of canon-- it just simply ignores them. Twentieth Century Fox hasn't stated that the AvP films were retconned out of canon or continuity and the expanded universe material published from 2009 on up still suggest that the Alien and Predator films are still linked to the AVP films and a still a part of the AVP Universe. Even events post 2179 A.D. (which is when ALIENS and Alien 3 is set) still make mention of the events of the Nostromo, LV-426 and Fury 161.

Really, what I am saying is that with the Alien/Predator/AVP films and universe... You can pick which of the three you want to follow. Fox probably might have intended the continuities and the canon to be pretty flexible and offers three choices for whoever wants to follow which of the three universes they want.

If you want to follow strictly Alien continuity, then disregard Predator, Predator 2 and AvP, and count only Prometheus.

If you want to follow strictly Predator continuity, then disregard Predator 2, AvP, AvP-R, and the Alien films. Count only Predator and PREDATORS.

If you want to follow Alien vs Predator continuity, then disregard PREDATORS and Prometheus. Count Predator, Predator 2, AvP, AvP-R, the Alien films and the overall encomposing EU which ties the two franchises together.

Honestly though, this thread would have run out of stuff to stay on topic with quick, not because it's a lame thread or anything against you Rakai, but because at this point we've got literally [b]nothing[/i] official to go on. It's all heresay going off of Reddit posts from people who claim to be devs. Until Gearbox, SEGA or TimeGate say anything official, we can't really discuss more beyond speculation.


At least you're sincere about it.

Yeah, I mean it's all hard to say if any of that information is true because these are people hiding behind the guise of anonymity and using blogs and social networking sites to say different reasons why the game had failed. So yeah.. Definitely a point there.

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#42 Ruinus

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:17 AM

At least you're sincere about it.

Yeah, I mean it's all hard to say if any of that information is true because these are people hiding behind the guise of anonymity and using blogs and social networking sites to say different reasons why the game had failed. So yeah.. Definitely a point there.

-Rakai'Thwei


I see no reason to abandon thread, it's just that we don't know what's going on.

Though let's be honest here, it could be that we are overthinking everything. It certainly is possible for a top grade studio to release something terrible - Resident Evil 6 is a recent example.

#43 RakaiThwei

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:19 AM

Though let's be honest here, it could be that we are overthinking everything. It certainly is possible for a top grade studio to release something terrible - Resident Evil 6 is a recent example.


I never played Resident Evil 6. Or any of the Resident Evil games.

I do remember that there was a big stink about what went on with Resident Evil 6. Though I can't remember what the controversy was.

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#44 Ruinus

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:24 AM

From what I remember the story was all over the place, it attempted to put in too many stories with different characters, there were cutscenes after cutscenes after cutscenes, and gameplay that wasn't really focused. Either way, the point is that, while it may be possible that TimeGate didn't get enough time, that Gearbox slacked off and didn't do their job (seriously, that much seems clear-they were contracted for the job, they decided to outsource their own work), it could be that, even if the deadlines had been months away and there'd have been no problems, the came could have still been bad.

#45 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:22 AM

In Mass Effect 2, when you go through the Omega 4 Relay, the Pillar of Autumn can be seen among the wreckage. I heard that ships from Star Wars/Star Trek and others can also be seen but I've only personally seen the Autumn.

Damn, that is sweet. A possible explanation of that could be, when the Autumn was going through that slip space in Halo 3, some of it got sent to the Mass Effect universe some how.

#46 AVP vs The Terminator

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:03 AM

Now honestly, do we have to go breaking everything up into separate universes? Why make things more convoluted than they already are? If you ask me, the Alien and Predator universe (yes, singular, not plural) is just an excessively retconned mess at this point, despite the fact that Predators and Prometheus were decent movies.

Seriously, if we took every little inconsistency in the Marvel Comics as a sign that the comic it appeared in takes place in an alternate universe, it wouldn't have a shared universe-- and yet, it clearly does, in spite of the aforementioned inconsistencies. In my opinion, the whole "three separate universes" idea is just making things waaaaaaaay more complicated than they need to be. I think everything takes place in one linear (if inconsistent) timeline: Predator, Predator 2, AvP, AvP:R, Predators, Prometheus, Alien, Aliens, Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection.

And yes, I am fully aware of the fact that Robert Rodriguez ignored Predator 2 and AvP when he developed Predators and considered it a "true sequel" to the original, but that in no way supports the argument that it takes place in a separate continuity altogether.

Just to use my aforementioned comic book example, writers ignore one another all the time. Rob Liefeld wrote about 40 issues of Supreme for Image Comics, then Alan Moore came along and wrote another 30 while essentially rebooting the series and ignoring the majority of the stuff Liefeld did. Then, after Moore left, Erik Larsen started writing it and picked up where Liefeld left off rather more than anything else-- and yet, all three take place in the same universe.

#47 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:05 AM

There's also several shout outs in Mass Effect news feeds and such. For example, in the Krypton system, there's a story about a planet exploding, with only one infant survivor getting away in a space ship. The infant is then picked up by the USS Kent.

#48 RakaiThwei

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:50 AM

Now honestly, do we have to go breaking everything up into separate universes? Why make things more convoluted than they already are? If you ask me, the Alien and Predator universe (yes, singular, not plural) is just an excessively retconned mess at this point, despite the fact that Predators and Prometheus were decent movies.


Tell me someting which me and the rest of the Alien-Predator fandom DOESN'T know.

Seriously, if we took every little inconsistency in the Marvel Comics as a sign that the comic it appeared in takes place in an alternate universe, it wouldn't have a shared universe-- and yet, it clearly does, in spite of the aforementioned inconsistencies. In my opinion, the whole "three separate universes" idea is just making things waaaaaaaay more complicated than they need to be. I think everything takes place in one linear (if inconsistent) timeline: Predator, Predator 2, AvP, AvP:R, Predators, Prometheus, Alien, Aliens, Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection.


What works for comic book literature doesn't necessarily work for movies in the same way, or as effectively in the same way for movies. Somethings can't be just as easily retconned from film lore in the same way as comic book lore. That's just a simple fact. If you think Alien and Predator are continuity messes-- then you need to be introduced to the Highlander franchise. That franchise has retcons up the wazoo and already that universe has three.. possibly six different continuities and universes.

Regarding Alien and Predator.. Yeah, you could write them as a singular timeline but the truth of the matter is Prometheus and PREDATORS doesn't take place in the same timeline as the AvP films, that's just a fact. Rodriguez and Ridley Scott have even intended them not to be. Of course, this is accounting the Word of God trope which a lot of people seem to want to disregard.

That and it's general consensus by the Alien-Predator fans that it doesn't work as a singular timeline, but works better as three seperate lores. For whatever reason, they find it quite easier that way.

And yes, I am fully aware of the fact that Robert Rodriguez ignored Predator 2 and AvP when he developed Predators and considered it a "true sequel" to the original, but that in no way supports the argument that it takes place in a separate continuity altogether.


There is a video addressing this issue which Rodriguez had answered. I don't know how many times I have posted that video, and I probably could post it again. It was the Web-chat interview which he had held sometime of June or July of 2009 and someone had asked him this question and this is verbatim: "Where does the film take place in the PREDATOR timeline?"

Rodriguez had responded: "When I concieved the original script, they had already come out with Predator 2 and I... pretended that didn't exist and I went straight from Predator to PREDATORS. Kind of like ALIEN and ALIENS. It takes place after the first. This movie has a nice connection to the first, so you don't have to see any of the other movies to see this one and you can see this one on it's own. Of course I'd encourage to see the first."

And again, this is taking Word of God into account. It kind of works the same with Ridley Scott and the timeline which he had presented with the Weyland Corp viral marketing website.

Just to use my aforementioned comic book example, writers ignore one another all the time. Rob Liefeld wrote about 40 issues of Supreme for Image Comics, then Alan Moore came along and wrote another 30 while essentially rebooting the series and ignoring the majority of the stuff Liefeld did. Then, after Moore left, Erik Larsen started writing it and picked up where Liefeld left off rather more than anything else-- and yet, all three take place in the same universe.


Again, what works for comic book literature doesn't necessarily work for movies in the same way, or as effectively in the same way for movies. Somethings can't be just as easily retconned from film lore in the same way as comic book lore.

A primary example would be the Highlander franchise which is a convoluted mess as it is. I mean once you understand the retcons and organize them, it's pretty easy to understand. Same thing applies to the Alien-Predator franchise as well.

For Highlander it's really tricky.. But writers Davis Panzer and David Abramowitz have worked it out.

You can either follow the first movie and only the first movie..

You can either follow Highlander and Highlander 2: The Quickening..

You can either follow Highlander and Highlander 2: The Renegade Version.

You can either follow Highlander and Highlander III: The Final Dimension.

You can follow Highlander, Highlander the Series, and Highlander Endgame.

All of these are considered to be different universes and continuities, believe it or not because of the insane amount of retcons which have been done to the franchise. Confusing at first, but once you get it.. it's not that hard to understand.

-Rakai'Thwei

#49 Ruinus

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:52 AM

See, the thing is about Rodriguez's statements is that his statement doesn't have to be taken literally as a "PREDATORS takes place in an alternatve universe", but as a "I don't really know or care how many specific years have happened after Predator 2 or if Predator 2 hasn't happened yet, I just know this one is after the first movie".

#50 AVP vs The Terminator

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:58 PM

See, the thing is about Rodriguez's statements is that his statement doesn't have to be taken literally as a "PREDATORS takes place in an alternatve universe", but as a "I don't really know or care how many specific years have happened after Predator 2 or if Predator 2 hasn't happened yet, I just know this one is after the first movie".


This is the point I was trying to get across. There is absolutely nothing in Rodriguez's statement that leads me to believe that Predators took place in a separate universe to Predator 2 and AvP. He's saying that he doesn't give a shit about anything that came after Predator, and he wants this to be considered an actual sequel to the first. Okay, cool... now where's the proof that it takes place in a different timeline to AvP?

All I'm getting from your statements is that this whole "three canons" thing is just fan speculation. To me, it just looks like Rodriguez is saying he's following on from the first film rather than acknowledging the sequels.

#51 Ruinus

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 02:21 PM

I'm watching a Let's Play of this game right now with my little bro, and the continuity issues are pretty glaring.
Spoiler


#52 Ruinus

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 02:33 PM

I would have to disagree with you there to some degree.. I know that Rebellion and Monolith had made the Xenomorphs pretty terrifying with their first two Alien vs Predator games. I mean Alien vs Predator for the PC, done by Rebellion had the Xenomorphs literally just gang up on you. Yeah, you could shoot them but you also lost health quite fast. The same could even be said about Monolith's AvP2 sequel.

Then again, I don't play much first person shooters.. So.... yeah..

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See, the thing is that the Xeno is a deadly enemy, but when they are put into the game mechanic of "enemies coming at you, shoot them!" they start to fail. As I'm going through this Let's Play, I notice it.

Spoiler


It'd work best if it was some sort of survival horror game.

#53 RakaiThwei

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:09 PM

All I'm getting from your statements is that this whole "three canons" thing is just fan speculation. To me, it just looks like Rodriguez is saying he's following on from the first film rather than acknowledging the sequels.


It's clear that Robert Rodriguez has something of a beef against Predator 2. Even at SXSW Austin 2009, someone had asked if the movie had a connection to Predator 2. Rodriguez did not want to answer that question and then later on went to say that his movie ignores Predator 2, AvP and AvP-R. So it's like what I have been saying and you've been saying it's a sequel to the first and only the first.

However Twentieth Century Fox doesn't knock anything out of canon. Also Twentieth Century Fox doesn't necessarily have designated universe like say Earth-616, or Earth-1610, New Earth, Earth-1, Earth-2, etc, etc.. They haven't released an official statement that the AvP films are not canon to either the Predator or the Alien films. So therefore we have to take word from script writers, producers, directors etc.. And from interviews from what I've gathered is that PREDATORS is not connected to Predator 2, AvP, AvP-R. In the same way, Prometheus is not connected to the Predator or AvP films. Both Ridley Scott and Rodriguez have said that their respective films ignore certain films, but they don't bother in knocking the others out of canon.

Alien vs Predator and its 2007 sequel, AvP-R: Aliens vs Predator Requiem, set up a whole new premise whereby the creatures from the Alien series and the predators from the Predator series meet and do battle on modern day Earth. It is, however, a prequel to the Alien films and a sequel to the Predator films in some respects, as the movie acknowledges aspects of those movies and may be considered part of the same universe of both film series.

The problem with this is... Rodriguez doesn't want PREDATORS to be counted with Predator 2, AvP or Alien. He's made that clear. Ridley Scott does not want Prometheus to be counted with AvP or Predator. He has also made that clear.

Alot of the Alien-Predator fans do as well think that all three are alternate yet similar timelines, though some try and reconcile all three franchises into a singular timeline but that's just their personal head-canons as they disregard the interviews with Rodriguez and Scott. And there are a lot of people ( most especially the fans at AvPGalaxy ) out there saying that only the Predator and Alien films exist, and that the AvP films are just "What If's" and not canon-- they say that out of their own nerd rage.

I take the Word of God trope into account, because it helps make sense of things. Also, Word of God is essentially just as much canon as is in-universe lore.

So what are Alien-Predator fans who have studied the lore left with then?

I'm watching a Let's Play of this game right now with my little bro, and the continuity issues are pretty glaring.
There'd be no way for xenos to be on the Sulaco, though honestly that first encounter is pretty cool.


Now that I think about it.. How in the hell did they get on the Sulaco? More importantly.. How did they get the numbers to overwhelm the Sephora Marines?

Wait.. that was never answered in the game.

See, the thing is that the Xeno is a deadly enemy, but when they are put into the game mechanic of "enemies coming at you, shoot them!" they start to fail. As I'm going through this Let's Play, I notice it.

This first level you are on the Sulaco works just fine. The xenos are coming at you in wave, this is alright because it makes sense in context-you've got your own ship next to the Sulaco, so you've really got a "safe" place, there's no real sense of being cut off from the world. Now, this works because, despite the fact that the Sulaco is falling apart, you get some sort of sense of power (at least that's what I get from watching the game), because they are functioning as dumb monsters that rush you. The next part you are cut off from the squad... the xenos still sorta rush you like dumb action movie monsters.

It'd work best if it was some sort of survival horror game.


The Xenomorph is a deadly enemy, we can agree on that.

But in the cases of games like ALIEN Trilogy, Aliens Online, and of course.. ALIENS: Colonial Marines is that they were given a pretty dumb AI to essentially just be nothing more than bugs which simply charge at you. I do know that Aliens: Colonial Marines was supposed to have elements of survival horror and intelligent Xenomorphs which were supposed to be stealthy and hard to fight but we weren't given that. That was something of a major complaint from many Alien fans.

As for a Aliens Survival Horror game.. we were almost given that. But Obsidian had canceled the project.

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#54 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:18 PM

I know a good survival horror space game!

Dead Space.

#55 DamagingRob

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:20 PM

I want this game, now. I must see the mediocreness, with my own eyes. Besides, you all were wrong about Duke Nukem Forever. Wrong, I say! :P

#56 Ruinus

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:30 PM

I know a good survival horror space game!

Dead Space.


This is true. Dead Space sorta beat the Alien franchise to a good Alien game.

#57 force_echo

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 04:02 PM

Hey, in my head canon, it's just Prometheus, Alien, and Aliens, i.e, the only good movies out of the entire Predators/Aliens/AvP mess.

#58 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:31 PM

One thing I find hilarious is Rakai lets his issues with canon in the way of actually enjoying a film like Predators.

It wasn't entirely bad - it was entertaining for what it was worth.

#59 RakaiThwei

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:40 PM

One thing I find hilarious is Rakai lets his issues with canon in the way of actually enjoying a film like Predators.


No, it was the fact that the film had a bad starting script which Rodriguez had written back in 1994, and the film was essentially the Jurassic Park III of the Predator series. I just didn't like how it was handled and the direction in which it went.

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#60 corvette1710

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:45 PM

I LIEKED JURASSIC PARK 3 :(




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