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John Carter (film) vs Scar (AVP)


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#21 skadoosh

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 07:39 PM

snip


Yes, the science and the fiction overlap, we established that already, but that wasn't what you mentioned at first, or, if it was, you did not make it clear.

You can't just say Scar is not affected by the gravity. Scientifically, gravity does not work that way.


This is not relevant, because science as we know it is not the same as science in the John Carter film. They overlap, obviously, but they are not the same. Also, this being the Rumbles forum, i, like any fight creator, can say what i like without explanation, and cannot be criticised for it. Like it or not.

The rest of what you said is relevant, however.

#22 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 07:45 PM

The Yautja would be much stronger, but that's not decisive by itself. You guys make it sound as Carter is an ordinary human and his only reason for success is his increased strength on Mars. That's far from the truth.

John Carter is immortal, with centuries of fighting experience before he ever got to Mars. He had an advantage in strength, it's true, but in the novels his skill is also superior to that of the best warriors of a sword culture. He is (as Burroughs often tells us) the finest swordsman of two worlds and his Martian swords are made from material vastly superior than steel.

He's depicted as a warrior on a par with Tarzan, and in Tarzan vs. Predator at the Earth's Core, Tarzan was able to kill several Yautja with just his knife. IMO, they made it too easy for Tarzan, but I also think that both he and Carter are easy to underestimate. No disrespect to the Predators, who easily outmatch even elite human fighters, but John Carter can take this.

#23 skadoosh

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 07:47 PM

The Yautja would be much stronger, but that's not decisive by itself. You guys make it sound as Carter is an ordinary human and his only reason for success is his increased strength on Mars. That's far from the truth.

John Carter is immortal, with centuries of fighting experience before he ever got to Mars. He had an advantage in strength, it's true, but in the novels his skill is also superior to that of the best warriors of a sword culture. He is (as Burroughs often tells us) the finest swordsman of two worlds and his Martian swords are made from material vastly superior than steel.

He's depicted as a warrior on a par with Tarzan, and in Tarzan vs. Predator at the Earth's Core, Tarzan was able to kill several Yautja with just his knife. IMO, they made it too easy for Tarzan, but I also think that both he and Carter are easy to underestimate. No disrespect to the Predators, who easily outmatch even elite human fighters, but John Carter can take this.


Good analysis, fair points, thanks for the examples.

#24 RakaiThwei

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 07:48 PM

John Carter is immortal, with centuries of fighting experience before he ever got to Mars. He had an advantage in strength, it's true, but in the novels his skill is also superior to that of the best warriors of a sword culture. He is (as Burroughs often tells us) the finest swordsman of two worlds and his Martian swords are made from material vastly superior than steel.


Kind of Moot here since Skadoosh said this was the movie version.

And Yautja blades are made from Dlex, which is vastly superior to steel as well.

He's depicted as a warrior on a par with Tarzan, and in Tarzan vs. Predator at the Earth's Core, Tarzan was able to kill several Yautja with just his knife. IMO, they made it too easy for Tarzan, but I also think that both he and Carter are easy to underestimate. No disrespect to the Predators, who easily outmatch even elite human fighters, but John Carter can take this.


The crossovers with Tarzan and Predator are not canon. You should really keep this in mind. While I haven't read the Tarzan vs Predator comic, I can tell you that most Yautja would be able to take Tarzan down with no problem whatsoever.

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#25 skadoosh

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 07:54 PM

This is indeed the film version, good point, although i'm not entirely sure how that affects his skill. John is fighting with Martian swords, though, not human ones.

#26 RakaiThwei

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 07:56 PM

This is indeed the film version, good point, although i'm not entirely sure how that affects his skill. John is fighting with Martian swords, though, not human ones.


From what I remember, the film makes no mention of Immortality.

As far as sword skills goes... well.... The whole "Finest" swordsman thing is kind of a fallacy there. Probably he was in whatever military team he served but not the finest on Earth. Also what his level of skill with was a sword wasn't even mentioned in the movie, except that what we see is that he was exceptionally skilled.

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#27 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:08 PM

Oh, I know which is fine and dandy but.. gravity doesn't work like that.



Gravity doesn't work even remotely like it does in the Barsoom stories. Carter's jumps should be more like those of Neil Armstrong on the moon that the Hulk like bounds we saw. Burroughs had a very weak grasp of science and was writing at the beginning of the 20th century when a lot less was known.

While I have seen the John Carter movie... considering that he was a roughly athletic male in conditioning... Could we maybe get some calculations here for his strength on what his level would be on Barsoom and compare it to a non-buffed Scar?

I mean assuming Carter is an athletic level male, he'd be able to maybe lift... twice his body weight at Max.



I can see how you'd make this assumption from the movie, but the books depict Carter as superbly conditioned, and amazingly skilled. It's his swordsmanship, not his Martian strength Scar has to worry about.

I mean I know that on Barsoom, he would be experiencing what would be called Exaggerated Muscle Output because of the difference in gravitional forces between Earth and Barsoom.


-Rakai'Thwei


For realistic math: the gravity of Mars is 37.9% that of earth, so a human on Mars would theoretically be capable of lifting 2.64 times as much weight. He could leap higher as well, though no more than 2.64 times what he could on earth and probably not that much.

The reduced gravity would not affect his durability at all, nor would it affect the power of his blows. How hard you can swing a sword depends on its mass, not its weight.

For ERB math... it can't be done. In the early stories Carter's strength is wildly inconsistent. Sometimes he's leaping dozens of yards and beating down Tharks and white apes, other times he's a little stronger than an athletic Martian man. In the later stories he pretty much drops the strength gimmick.

#28 skadoosh

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:09 PM

John is clearly a very skilled swordsman, and generally a very capable warrior. And so is Scar.

#29 skadoosh

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:10 PM

Gravity doesn't work even remotely like it does in the Barsoom stories. Carter's jumps should be more like those of Neil Armstrong on the moon that the Hulk like bounds we saw. Burroughs had a very weak grasp of science and was writing at the beginning of the 20th century when a lot less was known.


Thank you. Also, good points.

#30 RakaiThwei

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:24 PM

Gravity doesn't work even remotely like it does in the Barsoom stories. Carter's jumps should be more like those of Neil Armstrong on the moon that the Hulk like bounds we saw. Burroughs had a very weak grasp of science and was writing at the beginning of the 20th century when a lot less was known.


Which was what I said in a previous post. Which also brings us to the fact that now we do have an extensive amount of knowledge on Mars, and that this is the movie version which we are working with and that particular version is different from the Book.

I can see how you'd make this assumption from the movie, but the books depict Carter as superbly conditioned, and amazingly skilled. It's his swordsmanship, not his Martian strength Scar has to worry about.


Again... Not the books. This is the movie version which we are talking about... And speaking of the movie version, I just remembered that there are TWO movies of John Carter. Disney's version, and of course the Asylum's version.

Also, regarding his Swordsman ship... Scar is actually quite talented with a combi-staff. He's shown to have pretty impeccable technique with it.

For realistic math: the gravity of Mars is 37.9% that of earth, so a human on Mars would theoretically be capable of lifting 2.64 times as much weight. He could leap higher as well, though no more than 2.64 times what he could on earth and probably not that much.


So what you're saying is that despite Carter's strength on Barsoom, realistically speaking he would barely be Above Peak Human Strength. Now I can't tell you what the gravitational pull on the Yautja homeworld is like as far as definitive numbers are concerned, what I can tell you is that the planet has an asteroid belt around it similarly to how Saturn and Jupiter does as well, implying a very strong gravitational pull. More than likely, this is a factor in the strength of the Yautja as well as their anatomical differences and musculature, as well as bone density from human beings. On Earth, we know that they are superhumanly strong and the average Yautja-- and I mean your run of the mill Predator from Unblooded to Blooded in rank are somewhere in the 2 - 5 ton in strength range. And this is taking in the Expanded Universe, crossovers not counting. But there are Yautja who are stronger than the one's we commonly see... Some being crazy strong.

So really... It wouldn't matter if Carter had the buffs as far as Barsoom's gravity is speaking because Scar would still vastly outclass him.

For ERB math... it can't be done. In the early stories Carter's strength is wildly inconsistent. Sometimes he's leaping dozens of yards and beating down Tharks and white apes, other times he's a little stronger than an athletic Martian man. In the later stories he pretty much drops the strength gimmick.


Because you said it yourself... ERB had a weak grasp of what Mars was really like. Also, there were different writers for the books as well.

For the film version, it's easier to work with because modern interpretations of science fiction do use real science to make such works more believable.

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#31 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:29 PM

Kind of Moot here since Skadoosh said this was the movie version.



Not really. The movie adheres pretty closely to the book on these points.

And Yautja blades are made from Dlex, which is vastly superior to steel as well.



True, but my point is that Carter has excellent weapons, not that they are better than the Yautja's.


The crossovers with Tarzan and Predator are not canon. You should really keep this in mind. While I haven't read the Tarzan vs Predator comic, I can tell you that most Yautja would be able to take Tarzan down with no problem whatsoever.



You know this based on your great knowledge of Tarzan? ;)

I respect your knowledge of the Predator franchise. You know a lot more about them than I do.

However, your casual dismissal of John Carter and Tarzan seems a little arbitrary. Is it based on any real knowledge of the characters? If so, what?

#32 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:32 PM

Pffft, Hulk wins

Oh shit, wrong thread.

#33 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:33 PM

Stark, you are drunk, go home.

#34 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:39 PM

I have appeared to lost my pants.

The Iron Man pants.

HELP ME FIND THEM NAMOR *trips*

#35 RakaiThwei

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:40 PM

Not really. The movie adheres pretty closely to the book on these points.


Not according to what my friend Scott has said, and he's read pretty much all of the Barsoom books. He's said that there were differences of the film and the books.

True, but my point is that Carter has excellent weapons, not that they are better than the Yautja's.


As long as we got that out of the way...

You know this based on your great knowledge of Tarzan?

I respect your knowledge of the Predator franchise. You know a lot more about them than I do.

However, your casual dismissal of John Carter and Tarzan seems a little arbitrary. Is it based on any real knowledge of the characters? If so, what?


I haven't ready any of the books of either Tarzan or John Carter.

However, I have seen numerous adaptatons of them. I've remember seeing the 1980s adaptation of Greystoke: The Legend of Tarzan starring Christopher Lambert and Ian Holme. From what I know of that version of Tarzan, he was raised by Chimpanzees and was taught to use his senses to near superhuman levels. He also had peak human conditioning considering his lifestyle and animalistic upbringing. I do not recall him ever learning a martial art, and I do not recall him ever having senses which are superior to a Bloodhound's.

The Yautja are trained in a native martial art called Jehdin which is according to author Steve Perry, the creator of the Yautja mythos-- to be an almagation of Aikido, Penchak Silat, and Karate. It's supposedly a martial art which is more complex than what we have on Earth. Also, there are the physical strength differences and what not of the Yautja to their advantage.

If you want to discuss Tarzan vs Predator... PM me or whatever..

Regarding John Carter... I've only seen the Asylum movie and the Disney movie. If this were strictly the books, I wouldn't be talking in this thread but since this is the movie version.. Depending on which movie... probably affects my opinion of Carter. Though it's been a while since I've seen either movie.

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#36 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:55 PM

No srsly where my pants at

#37 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:00 PM

*hands him Hawkeye's pants*

#38 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:29 PM

Which was what I said in a previous post. Which also brings us to the fact that now we do have an extensive amount of knowledge on Mars, and that this is the movie version which we are working with and that particular version is different from the Book.


Are you saying that the movie is based on a modern scientific understanding of mars? If so, you are very much mistaken.

Again... Not the books. This is the movie version which we are talking about...

Again, the movie is faithful to the book in this respect. I don't understand why you--who has not read the books--insists that I--who has read the books--am wrong about this. It defies logic.

And speaking of the movie version, I just remembered that there are TWO movies of John Carter. Disney's version, and of course the Asylum's version.

Yes, there is a version that is faithful to the book and one which is not. What point are you making here?

Also, regarding his Swordsman ship... Scar is actually quite talented with a combi-staff. He's shown to have pretty impeccable technique with it.

The fact that Scar is a skilled warrior has not been in contention at any point in this discussion.

So what you're saying is that despite Carter's strength on Barsoom, realistically speaking he would barely be Above Peak Human Strength.

No. Carter's strength does not change, only his environment changes. He can lift several times as much and jump several times as far but not because he's become stronger. He may be stronger than the Martians but that's because they evolved in a lower gravity environment, not because he's gotten stronger.

Now I can't tell you what the gravitational pull on the Yautja homeworld is like as far as definitive numbers are concerned, what I can tell you is that the planet has an asteroid belt around it similarly to how Saturn and Jupiter does as well, implying a very strong gravitational pull.

The asteroid belt is a collection of objects that orbits the sun between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter. I think what you mean is a planetary ring.

A ring does not imply anything about the gravity of a planet. Huge planets like Saturn and Jupiter have them but so does Saturn's moon Rhea, which is much smaller than the Earth.

More than likely, this is a factor in the strength of the Yautja as well as their anatomical differences and musculature, as well as bone density from human beings. On Earth, we know that they are superhumanly strong and the average Yautja-- and I mean your run of the mill Predator from Unblooded to Blooded in rank are somewhere in the 2 - 5 ton in strength range. And this is taking in the Expanded Universe, crossovers not counting. But there are Yautja who are stronger than the one's we commonly see... Some being crazy strong.

I've heard you make these claims about Yautja strength before. You seem knowledgeable and I have accepted this as a measure of respect. However, since the respect in this conversation is only running one way... prove it.

So really... It wouldn't matter if Carter had the buffs as far as Barsoom's gravity is speaking because Scar would still vastly outclass him.

The fact that Scar is stronger is not a point of contention. But you do need to prove your claims about how much stronger, and about how you know anything about Carter.

Because you said it yourself... ERB had a weak grasp of what Mars was really like. Also, there were different writers for the books as well.

No. All the Barsoom books were written by Edgar Rice Burroughs except for Synthetic Men of Mars which was probably finished by a ghostwriter.

For the film version, it's easier to work with because modern interpretations of science fiction do use real science to make such works more believable.

One more time. The movie we are discussing is NOT scientifically accurate. It IS faithful to the novel.

#39 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:35 PM

THESE ARE NOT MY PANTS

#40 RakaiThwei

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:41 PM

Are you saying that the movie is based on a modern scientific understanding of mars? If so, you are very much mistaken.


Perhaps I am. I haven't read the books like you clearly seemed to have indicated, but it is my understanding that most science fiction films use elements of real science to make their films more believable.

Again, the movie is faithful to the book in this respect. I don't understand why you--who has not read the books--insists that I--who has read the books--am wrong about this. It defies logic.


See the above comment. Also, I never said you were wrong.

Yes, there is a version that is faithful to the book and one which is not. What point are you making here?


Skadoosh hasn't specified which version he's using.. That's my point.

The fact that Scar is a skilled warrior has not been in contention at any point in this discussion.


No, but a lot of people on this site like to really down play him. I won't name names though.

Part 2 of this post is coming up.




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