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Match 13399 Horsemen of Apocalypse and X-Men vs. Z fighters


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#81 AVP vs The Terminator

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:57 AM

Yeah but Piccolo did it easily, Roshi had to go all 'roid rage.

#82 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:58 AM

Still vastly weaker than Piccolo though.

I mean it's better to use that for what Methos was making the comparison about :P

#83 sirmethos

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:38 AM

Thought ordinary humans had power levels of around 30? The farmer Raditz killed did, anyway.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1dsL3LvUek

Jump to 0:40

And from the Manga:
Posted Image

#84 MarvelFan15

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:44 AM

Also, considering Piccolo could casually blow away a moon with a power level of around 320, it stands to reason that anyone with a power level of around four times that could destroy an Earth-sized planet, given the size of the moon in relation to Earth...


Actually no, the discrepancy would be roughly 40 times the power, assuming power levels are completely linear.

Thought ordinary humans had power levels of around 30? The farmer Raditz killed did, anyway.


Nope. 5. As detailed by methos above.



To be fair, they are consistent about who is stronger than whom. I disagree that there is any consistency about how their powers affect the world.,


Fair enough.

"I may have that confused because the Death Battles video used it together with crossing Snake Way to fight Nappa and Vegeta.

I don;t understand what you're saying here. The first sentence sounds like you're saying that they didn't use Goku's strength when he fought Vegeta as a base and the second sentence sounds like you're saying they did."


Sorry. What I meant to say was that that particular showing was the best example of his speed that they had. Then they just assumed his base speed didn't change, and then they multiplied.


"This has been answered by others."

They're wrong. No one in the primary canon (manga) had ever destroyed a planet until that point, and we only hear about planet Vegeta in roughly one panel of flashback.

"I understand that it's debatable, and what we see is inconsistent with what we're told. That is getting away from the point I was making, though. It's easy to understand why a DBZ fan, who takes the show literally, would think the characters are much more powerful than DC superheroes. I'm not saying I agree with them (I don't) only that it is easy to understand them. DBZ is built on hyperbole and big splashy shows of power. The fans are being honest when they favor their characters, they just aren't being analytical."

Fair enough.



"Right. And there is my point."

Agreed. Was just elaborating on some points was all.


King Vegeta destroyed 3 planets way before the Frieza saga actually.


King Vegeta's feats aren't canon.

#85 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:58 AM

Actually they are.

#86 AVP vs The Terminator

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:00 AM

Huh, dunno where I got 30 from. Thanks for the correction.

#87 MarvelFan15

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:26 PM

Actually they are.


Nope. Not at all.

Proof?

#88 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:34 PM

I texted you it.

#89 MarvelFan15

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:50 PM

I see. I stand corrected.

I can't find anything about Akira said to make this canon, apart from the fact that Bardock first appeared in the anime and was then referenced in flashback in the manga. Any more information would be helpful.

#90 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:01 PM

The Episode of Bardock manga in which Bardock become a Super Saiyan might help.

#91 MarvelFan15

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:05 PM

That wasn't written by Toriyama, though.

#92 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:09 PM

No it wasn't, technically. But it was made under his supervision and his approval as canon.

#93 MarvelFan15

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:12 PM

No it wasn't, technically. But it was made under his supervision and his approval as canon.


It'd be helpful if you provided quotes, links, or some other verification, because otherwise it's just a random special that isn't really canon to the main story at all.

And none of this makes the King Vegeta feat canon, either, since it has absolutely no relation to Episode of Bardock, unless you have quotes indicating Toriyama made all of Bardock's appearances canon.

#94 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:18 PM

"Ooishi-san understands Dragon Ball really well, and she knows so much about it too. I've plump forgot what in Dragon Ball, so she knows about 1,000 times more about it than me! But what I admire more is her considerable artistic strength and skill at manga composition, so I'm confident that she has made a work that is even more interesting then the original anime, which was abit weak (?) in some areas. She did her best in the unfamiliar job of making manga out of an anime, all because it as too much of a pain for me to make an original work myself. So please be nice and support her. I think that I probably would not draw any more Dragon Ball manga, so this is the only place you are going to see anything new!!"
— Akira Toriyama, 2009


So more or less, he just passed the reins on, yes?

Now, since the Episode of Bardock is directly tied to the events of his movie/TV special, it seems to me the content in said movie is canon, no?

#95 AVP vs The Terminator

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:20 PM

Why does it have to be written by the original author to be considered canon? I guess every story the Fantastic Four have ever appeared in that wasn't written by Stan Lee or Jack Kirby is non-canon, then. I can understand it being considered a lower form of canon, but as long as it doesn't contradict anything by the original author it should be fine.

#96 MarvelFan15

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 04:34 PM

Akira Toriyama, 2009 quote

So more or less, he just passed the reins on, yes?

Now, since the Episode of Bardock is directly tied to the events of his movie/TV special, it seems to me the content in said movie is canon, no?


King Vegeta never appeared in Bardock's special:

"Although numerous website summaries and the like state that he does, King Vegeta does not appear in Dragon Ball Z: Bardock - The Father of Goku. This is most likely due to confusion with flashbacks in the anime."
-- Source (Under Trivia)

So, no, the feat is not canon as far as I'm aware.

Why does it have to be written by the original author to be considered canon? I guess every story the Fantastic Four have ever appeared in that wasn't written by Stan Lee or Jack Kirby is non-canon, then. I can understand it being considered a lower form of canon, but as long as it doesn't contradict anything by the original author it should be fine.


Nope, that's not how it works. All Fantastic Four stories published in the main fiction (Earth 616) are canon. They're owned exclusively by Marvel, not Stan Lee or Jack Kirby. If Dragon Ball is a creator owned property, then only what Troiyama writes or states is actually canon is canon, not works by other writers. Don't impose the rules for canon qualification on a company that works in a completely separate manner.

So, I guess it stands to reason, then, that if Dragon Ball is owned by Shueisha, the publishers of Shonen Jump and Viz Media, then you could argue that anything they publish is canon.

So, do you know if DBZ is creator-owned, or not?

#97 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 04:39 PM

Bah.

Canon to the anime.

Someone say this is the anime versions!

#98 MarvelFan15

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 04:44 PM

Heh.

It was a pain to find that. My internet connection decided it would be cool to troll me and take five minutes per wiki page. I about gave up.

#99 AVP vs The Terminator

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 05:17 PM

Nope, that's not how it works. All Fantastic Four stories published in the main fiction (Earth 616) are canon. They're owned exclusively by Marvel, not Stan Lee or Jack Kirby. If Dragon Ball is a creator owned property, then only what Troiyama writes or states is actually canon is canon, not works by other writers. Don't impose the rules for canon qualification on a company that works in a completely separate manner.

So, I guess it stands to reason, then, that if Dragon Ball is owned by Shueisha, the publishers of Shonen Jump and Viz Media, then you could argue that anything they publish is canon.

So, do you know if DBZ is creator-owned, or not?


Yeah, I know, the scenario was intentionally unbelievable. The same applies to Dragon Ball-- it's licensed to Shueisha (to my knowledge, at least, Akira Toriyama has never claimed full ownership of the franchise), so pretty much everything they create can be considered canon in one form or the other, unless it's obviously set outside of continuity (like the One Piece crossover). As I said, if something they make directly contradicts something Toriyama established, then we can disregard it, but as long as it fits with everything the original writer wrote, it should be fine.

#100 sirmethos

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 05:20 PM

Just as a reminder, the wikia is not exactly a reliable source.

For example: The wikia says about Bardock that he "is one of the few Saiyans to have gone to outer space and breathe normally, while fighting Frieza and his men.". But if you actually see the video clip of the fight, Bardock is not actually in "outer space", he is still inside the atmosphere.

The wikia also contains information about non-canon, mixed with the canon information.




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