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#1 treacherous

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 10:07 AM

We always talk about characters we love or characters who don't get enough respect, but what about characters that suck. In this thread we discuss which characters suck and why. let's talk about that shall we...

My first pick...Sentry (that's right Marvel Man)

Why does he suck? Long story...here we go:

First Marvel has always had one BIG BLUE looming bane to their existence. His name: Superman. Superman was first and Superman was/is best. He is the epidemy of hero. Marvel has always been on the coat tails of trying to compete and defeat big blue to no avail. Supes is an American Icon. He is known throughout the world by people who know nothing of comics. Sure Marvel has characters that can beat up Superman (IE: Thor, Surfer), but who can relate to a god and a silver alien (by the way, Superman catching Thor's hammer in the Justice League/Avengers crossover was pure retarded. Superman has a weakness to magic. Not to mention this is magic wielded by a god. That hammer would've took Supes hand off. Popularity kids...popularity always wins.). What's that you say, "Supes is an alien." Yeah, but he looks like you and I and was raised by Ma and Pa Kent in the heartlands of Kansas. He's more American than apple pie. People love him and they relate to him, more so than they do with Thor and Surfer. So...Marvel has a knock off Superman by the name of Gladiator (who happens to be purple and has a mohawk). Let's discuss Gladiator, Marvel's answer to Supes?

First and foremost, Gladiator is a jobber (Wrestling term: look it up). His job is to make more popular characters look good. Basically, if you want Thor, Hulk or Thanos to look more powerful, have them beat up Gladiator. That's his purpose. Meanwhile, Gladiator is free to beat the crap out of any super powered individual of lesser importance. Don't get me wrong, sometimes Gladiator beats the more popular characters. He once beat Thor. But, most times...he's a jobber. So, Marvel still needs an anti-superman. This brings us to Sentry.

Horrible, horrible Sentry. The worst Superman knockoff of them all. His origin was so screwed and marred, It took them forever to sort it all out. He was originally a hero, but we all forgot about him because of the void or somebody stole our memory or blah blah blah stupid. So whatever, he's here and you deal with it. Oh and he needs to be relatable...blond hair blue eyes. That's more American than Superman! Now, he's got some ungodly power of a billion stars or something. What? How? We still don't know. Now, we got to make him stronger than Superman. Let's have him stop Terrax's axe. Ooh yeah, that's a Herald of Galactus. Nice PIS. Let's have him rip Carnage in half. Yeah, another great move. Let's have him do pretty much anything.

But wait he needs a weakness. We need to make him more relatable (believable). Okay, his only weakness is his fear of himself. That's right...he's so strong that the only thing he fears is himself (the void...whatever that is). There now he has a weakness, yet is still a badass. Now we'll have him cower in fear whenever trouble arises. He's scared of life...just like me! Whee. I'm just like the Sentry. He's so much better than Superman. Blegh, never Marvel. Give up. You'll never beat Superman.

#2 Kinetic War

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 01:16 PM

Everybody's always thinking about doing it, but you actually went and did it. A thread where we can bash characters to our heart's content. This calls for a cheer. Yay!

I don't want to make this seem like a Marvel bashing thread, as my character is said company's as well, but I simply have read much more comics from Marvel than DC (my second pick would actually be Doomsday, but feel free to bash him in the meantime), and I know when a character sucks, no matter how much life you try to breathe into them.

My pick: Elektra.

Since there's simply too much material to go into, for now I will only analyze Elektra's first run (from first appearance to death) in detail.

OK, so Frank Miller, the big bad, decides to make his own character to introduce to the Daredevil continuity. So, he makes this chick who's Matt Murdock's estranged first love, turned into an assassin by anger and bitterness. Wow, so Daredevil has to make the moral choice against his heart, to bring her to justice for her crimes, though he's still madly in love with her! That's some powerful stuff right there, right?

Wrong. Besides thinking about this choice once after the obligatory flashback sequence, we never get to see him act on it. Not only that, he never even considers it again. There's a cold-blooded assassin in the city, and Daredevil just lets her run around killing people because he loves her.

I could let that slide (to be fair, it does make Daredevil a bit more human, though a tad irresponsible), if the character of Elektra contributed to something. But she doesn't. Her only justification to appear from then on is that Miller can continue drawing a half-naked woman in suspicious positions.

Okay, so much for the story. How is she as character?

She's a ninja. She's emo. And a foxy lady. That's about it. Oh, and she's a badass, but I guess that goes with her being the one ninja.

When we first meet her, she's a badass who threatens a small crook to get to a big crook. Once she's surrounded by a gang of thugs, she kicks everyone's butts. Later on, she's a badass who kills a nigh-immortal mystical ninja (twice!) and eliminates a whole branch of ninjas - the ones who taught her how to be a ninja in the first place. Then, she's a badass who, after killing a bunch of crooks again, infiltrates the Kingpin's building and gets a job. Then, she's a badass who finally kicks Daredevil's butt. In the end, she's not so much a badass when Bullseye kills her.

See the pattern? Nearly her whole existence is based on being a badass, which doesn't make for a good character. Whenever I discuss Elektra with someone, all they can present are more feats of badassness. Where's the character? Where's the person we're supposed to identify with? And no, the occasional emo moments of "boo hoo, I still love Matt, no I don't, yes I do" etc. don't count for character development, as they're inconsistent at best.

Speaking of which, having her whole life centered around her unresolved feelings for Matt Murdock makes her boooooring. Until the end, she can't decide if she still wants him or not. Had it been written well, it could have made for very interesting character moments. But Miller just wanted to see her hop around with sais in hand, being a badass, as that's what her character was meant to be.

I won't even go into detail what Women in Refrigerators would have to say about the character in general, but once again, Elektra is a perfect example of why men are so bad at writing good female characters for comics. Her whole existence revolves around Matt, making her useless as a character in herself. Though the real reason why she's killed off is most likely shock value, once again, it's Matt's feelings that matter the most. She dies so that Matt has to confront his feelings about her, and to have more reasons to hate Bullseye. I know the series is called Daredevil, but come on, where does it say it has to be told from his point of view? The only female character I can think of right now who's more useless as a character is Matt's girlfriend at the time, Heather. She really had no life. And then she killed herself. Great going.

I could have forgiven all that if Elektra had stayed dead. If Matt had been left forever wondering what could have been. But no, the same mystical ninjas she just spent a couple of issues slaughtering decide to bring her back to life.

There's more, but I guess I'll spare everyone from having to hear all the reasons I hate Elektra. Because there's a lot of them.

#3 Culwych

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 02:37 PM

Treach, you are a legend and this is a thread that I am amazed hasn’t been around before! I think I’ll comment on the two characters mentioned so far and then mention one of my own.

Sentry: You pretty much summed up everything that I think about Sentry, but omitting one detail. What is his story plot? That is the “Void” part of the story, an evil and super-powerful being that lives inside him and that he struggles to contain.
Hang on.... doesn’t that sound like someone?
Yes it does indeed. What we have in the Sentry is a blatant rip-off of two of the most iconic figures of all time, one that belongs to DC (Superman) and Marvel’s very own powerhouse...the Hulk.

Elektra: Well Kinetic, a very well written analysis, but I’m not sure if agree on all the points.
- Yes, you have the one-ninja situation, but that’s a popular concept and makes ninja all that more amazingly cool.
- A lot of Elektra’s scenes do indeed involve the ultimate level of “badassness” but to criticize that will be criticizing a whole lot of other amazing characters (for example Wolverine or Saint of Killers)
- Her whole existence revolves around Matt. Whilst I agree that to start with it did, I think that she’s definitely moved away from that and is a solid character in her own right
- Justification = Miller drawing half-naked woman in suspicious positions. I have to say to that...And? Give me more Elektra’s, Power Girls, Emma Frost’s, Lara Crofts etc... they make the world a nicer place :huh:

Now, on to my own... Rodimus Prime.

Posted Image

I’m not going to go into much detail but this transformer was in the space of one movie promoted to leader of the Autobots, but to the dismay of an entire generation. He was brash, irrational and brazen and aimed at a younger generation.
But what they failed to take into consideration was that the old leader, Optimus Prime, was one of the most iconic and best-loved characters of that time!

Posted Image

We’ve got a brave and heroic transformer, killed off in the first half of the film, only to be forgotten by the second and replaced without warning!
It may be my age showing, but I believe that anyone who grew up with that generation of transformers was disappointed with this new, unappealing new Autobot leader.

Pray that the movies don’t go that way!

#4 Kinetic War

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 04:56 PM

@ Culwych:

Hmm... Seems I'll have to explain some points I deliberately left out.

1) Elektra as the one ninja. I didn't want to bring it up again, since I've commented on this on nearly every match Elektra has been a part of: Elektra is not just any one ninja. She's the one ninja. There are ninjas everywhere in the Daredevil universe, yet she's the only one who gets the one ninja advantage. She faces hundreds of opponents, she wins. She faces one ninja, a legendary, very powerful one, who should have the one ninja trope times thousand - and she wins. Worst of all, she doesn't win because she's so awesome, she wins because her opponent is an evolutionary impossibility: A hundreds of years old mystical ninja, who acts like a clumsy dope instead of a cunning warrior. Why even create Kirigi, if the point of him is to get killed in the next or so issues? Which brings me to point 2:

2) Elektra as a badass. She's a badass not because of her own skills, but because other characters have just caught the idiot ball. When Elektra is around, every other character falls down at least ten steps on the competence ladder. Even Frank frickin' Castle acts like a total retard when his opponent is Elektra.

A lot of Elektra’s scenes do indeed involve the ultimate level of “badassness” but to criticize that will be criticizing a whole lot of other amazing characters (for example Wolverine or Saint of Killers)


This I don't agree with. Wolverine does have some other qualities, like the struggle with his bestial side (and the fact that he's one of the first real antiheroes at Marvel) that make him relevant as a character. The badassness is a big part of him, but it's not all that he is. Elektra's only modus operandi is being a badass. That's it. In fact, her losing interest in Matt has only made her less relevant as a character, as instead of being a badass with a soft side, she's now just a badass. But once again, she's not a good character, as is no one who's been created excusively for badass moments. Give me such a character, and I'll argue that he or she is a bad character. I chose Elektra because of her popularity and the fact that she's a Frank Miller character (most of Miller's creations are pretty useless in the character development sense), but there are others who deserve the questionable honour just as well.

Granted, the idiot ball side of her could be explained away if her sex appeal was made part of her powers (just look at Power Girl and how easily she gets away with things), but since Elektra is supposed to be the "dark, brooding, mysterious" type, it's out of the question. I would accept her in the same way as I accept Squirrel Girl, if Marvel could be honest about her having the secret power of PIS.

The short one-shot (can't remember the name) where Elektra confronts a young jew whose relatives were killed by a certain *uncreative* bastard did show a glimpse of Elektra's human side, but I guess she always worked best alone, both literally and as a character.

#5 Marvel Man

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 05:24 PM

Wow.

Well, right of the bat, I applaud Treach for starting this much needed thread. We can all finally express our inner anger without having to learn how to box, shout, etc.

But then I read who Treach had picked.

Treach: Sentry sucks. Superman rules.

Me: NNNNOOOO!!!!

Still, it's not too big of a surprise. I've met a lot of people who don't like the Sentry, but I still do due to... (To read more on this, someone make a Characters Who Get Put Down Too Much & Why They Shouldn't Be Thread)

As for Kinetic War, I see where you're coming from. Specially this:

Even Frank frickin' Castle acts like a total retard when his opponent is Elektra.


Oh yeah.

Posted Image

This surprises me to this day. It seems like only Wolverine can talk to Elektra without fainting....

Anyways, I'll come back later to bash my character(s).

#6 Landon

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 08:53 PM

Elektra was cool when she was a character who lasted about 5 issues then DIED.

Then Marvel did its usual crappiness and had her come back to life.

Bleh

I have two least favorite characters, and they both represent the one thing that gripes me the most about anime:

Vash from Trigun and Kenshin from Ruroni Kenshin

Both characters are legendary badasses. They can beat anyone because they're the best at what they do. Yet they're complete pacifists. Except when they need to fight. But then they fight passively and non-violently. Except when they need to, but then they mope and cry and bitch about having to hurt someone for 10 episodes after the fact. But they still insist on fighting and still insist on bitching about having to fight. They're hypocracy at its worst.

It's one thing to be reluctant to fight and not want to kill someone. That's understandable. But these two characters are killing machines that hate being killing machines, and they do everything in their power to keep people from killing or hurting other people, even when killing and harming is a perfectly rational and NECCESSARY action.

Typical Kenshin or Vash scene:

Bad Guy: ahah! I have a kid hostage! ahaha!

Hero: I have a shot, I'm gonna take down that bad guy!

Vash/Kenshin: NO! Don't hurt a person, even if they're gonna kill a kid!

Hero: But I'll save the kid!

Vash/Kenshin: You'll be worse than that villain if you do it!

Bad Guy: *kills kid* ahaha! You waited too long and I killed the kid! ahaha!

Vash/Kenshin: No! *beats up bad guy* What did I do?! I had to hit that bad guy and knock him out. Why couldn't I save that kid?! This is your fault, *insert Hero here* because you wanted to kill that villain!

Above Scene Exaggerated To Prove Point

And what's worse is that the creators of these series want us to believe that these self-serving, hypocritical "ideals" are something to admire and respect when they're Just Plain Stupid.

#7 treacherous

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 09:47 PM

@Marvel Man - Where the hell do you get all these freakin comic pages? I mean I have most of these comics in a box in my closet, but I'm not searching and scanning everytime I need to make a point.

Anyway, next up (and you are all going to hate me again) is Deadpool...

I hate Deadpool mostly because I hate Rob Liefeld. He came around during the horrible 90's. You see there was a time during the 90's (history lesson) when everybody was trying to sell comics through gimmicks: Hologram covers, 3D covers, multiple covers for 1 issue, Every cover had boobs and everybody had a gun (most noteworthy being Hulk and Superman!! Yes, there were periods in the 90's when somebody looked at Hulk and Supes and said these guys need guns dammit!). Right at the forefront of the stupidity was Rob. He created so many horrible knock off characters. All his characters looked the same. When he left Marvel, he did like fifty different Cable look alikes at Image. 30 Deadpools and they all sucked. He sucks at proportion. He can't draw feet and hands. Did I mention he sucks at proportions. Don't believe me. Go look in the art section of the forums and look at the thread regarding the Worst Comic Covers. See Captain America covers...yeah. Yeah. He sucks. Anyway, it's not Deadpool's fault he's a creation of Rob Liefeld. But because of this...he sucks. Same goes for Cable. Blegh.

#8 Landon

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 09:59 PM

Treacherous described much of why I quit reading comics. I had the misfortune of being a teenaged comic fan during those years. I'll likely never go back to reading Marvel and DC because of those years.

#9 Marvel Man

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 10:32 PM

(most noteworthy being Hulk and Superman!! Yes, there were periods in the 90's when somebody looked at Hulk and Supes and said these guys need guns dammit!)

What?!

Hulk with a gun/ammo wrapped over his shoulder was the greatest thing since Superman died! How else is Hulk suppose to fight without his guns? It'd be like Wonder Woman flying without her plane...

Posted Image

@Marvel Man - Where the hell do you get all these freakin comic pages? I mean I have most of these comics in a box in my closet, but I'm not searching and scanning everytime I need to make a point.

If I didn't use my comics/comic knowledge by coming to this site, I might realize how much time and money I've wasted.

Posted Image

Anyway, next up (and you are all going to hate me again) is Deadpool...

Me: NNNOOOOO!!!

How can you read comics and dislike Deadpool?

It's like eating cheese, but hating nachos. Deadpool is the one true insanely being in a world where insanity is normality. Sure, he was created by Liefield, but that was back in the 90s!

Just look at what Deadpool can reference!

Posted Image

#10 KevinDWolf93

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 12:18 AM

Well Im drawing my personal hate to Kratos(god of war)
For some reason I dont like my protagonists to be total A-Holes(lookin at u castle).Ingame when he runs into people whos lives are broken(usually derailed for purpose of kratos to kick tail) it really sucks to see these guys I have an attatchment to(see below) get brutalized.Now he was screwed over by the gods and all, and a few did pose threats,but overall theres realky no character to him,other than being a tool to oh well...everyone.
Aside from that, the bit of being a godmode sue PO's me now and then. Now its one thing to work for equipment ala Zelda series,but kratos gets god killing weapons left and right, its almost too easy. Im actually glad about the opening of 2 where he idiotically drains his powers into glowy sword o death then gets it in his midsection minutes later.

Hes a badass despite copping out with assists from equipment instead of training his charles atlas superpowers like the other demi-gods, but it all comes full circle to me thinking he shouldnt beat these people

*Explination:Ive read quite a bit on the greek myths, more of a specialty(dont usually flex round here though) to me.I know stuff like back of hand, and knowledge intimately.

Theseus:Great hero who defeated the(real) minotaur.Gets face unceremoniously caved in after getting arrowed up

Perseus:One of the greater heroes who is no stranger to combat and armed with some powerful items of his own.Gets disarmed of each with relative each then meathooked.

The sisters of fate:The gods themselves fear em.Plus if it wasnt for idiot ball moment(s) theydve erased him from existance yesterday!

Im not even getting into the gods and monsters.Cool kills as they are, he shouldnt manage it(or even happen since timeline is messed up...he kills perseus,then the krakken perseus killed years earlier?)

Only thing that would make me hate him more(and this will probably happen) would be for opening of 3 we cut to kratos who just finished gutting f$%^&*g Hercules offscreen!

#11 treacherous

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 07:18 AM

Marvel Man almost made me stop reading comics just now.

#12 MarvelFan15

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 04:29 PM

Marvel Man almost made me stop reading comics just now.


You must really hate Deadpool... :huh:

#13 treacherous

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 05:02 PM

...and Punisher Hulk. WTF?!?!

#14 Tarvius

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 07:45 PM

You must really hate Deadpool... :huh:



Treacherous has been married twice. Deadpool killed his first wife.

#15 Hugo Fowl

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 08:04 PM

I'm surprised the Twilight ponce hasn't been mentioned. Edward Cullen single-handedly disses years of Vampire lore and creates a godmodder that would be bitch-slapped a thousand ways from next Tuesday if it were made here.

#16 Guest_Ivan_*

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 09:05 PM

To add another voice to the anti-Sentry crowd, the whole "scam" with Wizard magazine remains a sticking point in my mind. Marvel claimed to have "found" a Superman Ripoff that Stan created just before FF and then forgot about (which was really the most believable part of the whole thing,) and he was drawn by this artist nobody had ever heard of before who was clearly just John Romita and the entire online community was calling Bullsh*t on Marvel and Wizard for months and then the final issue ships and Wizard's all like "WE GOT YOU!" When the only people they "got" were people who exclusively read Wizard.

Sentry's pointlessness is compounded by the fact that Marvel has a bevy of pre-existing Superman pastiches, any one of which would fill the role nicely. You need a "Superman" in your story? You've got Hyperion, you've got Gladiator, hell you've got Aquarian come to that. You could use Genis for most things. Use Namor or Thor or Silver Surfer, have them do things Superman could never do in a story.

Having said that, the character the deserves the most hate is undoubtedly Wolverine.

#17 treacherous

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 10:39 AM

You see there was a time during the 90's (history lesson) when everybody was trying to sell comics through gimmicks: Hologram covers, 3D covers, multiple covers for 1 issue, Every cover had boobs and everybody had a gun (most noteworthy being Hulk and Superman!! Yes, there were periods in the 90's when somebody looked at Hulk and Supes and said these guys need guns dammit!).



Posted Image

Let's discuss, Ivan style shall we...
http://doctorv.livej...com/191515.html

#18 Marvel Man

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 11:17 AM

I'm just angry they allowed Superman to grow such an awesome beard.

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#19 MarvelFan15

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 04:47 PM

I'm surprised the Twilight ponce hasn't been mentioned. Edward Cullen single-handedly disses years of Vampire lore and creates a godmodder that would be bitch-slapped a thousand ways from next Tuesday if it were made here.


I was going to metnion Twilight...but was distracted by Treach's anti-Deadpool rant. Yet, I must agree with you, Hugo.

Treacherous has been married twice. Deadpool killed his first wife.

:huh:

#20 Kinetic War

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 06:20 AM

Firstly, @ Marvel Man: Thanks for the scan, that was a case in point. I don't like it when long-standing characters with some real relevancy in their own right are humiliated by someone who desperately needs badass moments in order to work as a character.

Secondly, Landon's example reminded me of why some old cartoons were so much fun.

Villain: Ahah! I'm gonna blow up Earth! Ahaha!

Superman: That's not the right thing to do! Someone has wronged you, but you shouldn't punish everyone for that! There's more to life than revenge!

Villain: Gee golly, Superman, thank you for talking some sense into me and making me realize how uttelry stupid I was for trying to kill everyone! Come on, let's deactivate the superbomb I spent the last thirteen years of my life perfecting, and then we'll go and have a milkshake.

-HAPPY END-

Thirdly, I have to get this off my chest now. The time I took to find information about the character for CBUB Mythbusters, I came to realize that despite the unlikely potential, writers at DC failed to make something of the character.

My second pick: Doomsday.

He started out as a plot point. The immensely powerful being, who laid waste to entire cities and nearly killed many JLA members, existed for one purpose and one purpose only: To kill Superman. Which he did, so job done. Except that Doomsday didn't die. And Superman was revealed to be in suspended animation. Now that makes sense. Would have been a fun soap opera reference if Supes had been found an amneasiac wandering in the desert, but fortunately the X-Man Cyclops did it later on.

So the writer gives us a treat in the form of Hunter/Prey, where the origin of the creature is explained. Though the origin itself is certainly a case of "You Fail Biology Forever", it doesn't really matter in the world of comic books, as we now get to know exactly how Doomsday got so powerful. Or do we? Besides teasing us with hints of Doomsday being the embodiment of evolutionary adaptation, we are never given an explanation of just how his powers work in practice. We are told he becomes immune to the thing that killed him. Fine, except... wait, what? What does he become immune to? He's able to kill all the predators on his birthplanet Krypton, yet nothing is said except that "Should the Ultimate [a.k.a. Doomsday] somehow find any creature stronger than he... and actually be killed... he will come back to life, evolved into a superior being!" So... is it a question of strength? Certainly not, as he becomes immune to all forms of energy after being killed by one (1) being made of pure energy. Yet it is shown in future encounters that he can be killed by physical force multiple times. Why did one form of energy make him immune to all forms? Or did it? Is there something else we are not told about?

The character is a big question mark. Of course leaving mysteries is a decent storytelling technique, but the creature's origin has already been explained. No need to keep his mechanics a secret anymore. What frustrates me most about Doomsday is that his power could make for an awesomely interesting character, yet he's nothing but another villain Supes can pound his frustrations on.

And let's not forget about the fact that a creature with no other motivation than rage may be fun for one story arc or so, but after that, it gets old. There was one instance they tried to make Doomsday's character more relevant by giving him sentience, but it was just an experiment on the writer's part, and then Doomsday went back to being his usual, bloodthirsty self.

Of course it's not the character's faul that the writers have left him shallow. But potential doesn't make for a character good either.




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