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Match 13238 Clark Kent (Smallville) and Justice League and Justice Society of America vs. Apocalypse and Horsemen of Apocalypse and X-Men


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#41 bigballerju

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 02:53 AM

1. This is Smallville a tv show and not the real world. The planet in that clip I showed you was just as big as Earth on Smallville.

2. Smallville and the comics version are different. So comics version doesn't even factor here nor is there any mention of bringing it up.

3. In the Season 11 comics and in Season 10 in the series finale Clark kent moved a planet.

There isn't different interpretations. Clark Kent moved a planet if you watched the actually episode, clip I showed you, and if you reading Smallville Season 11 comics currently going on.

Plain and Simple. It has been stated and shown. You provided a picture that only shows part of the planet. I showed you a clip that shows you the planet was the same size as Earth.

#42 DSkillz

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 02:57 AM

Heh, I remember the Smallville finale, too. Looking back on it, problems with size scale between Apokolips and Earth were just as big an issue in those last episodes as the lack of gravitional disruption. I seem to remember as Apokolips made its way toward Earth, it passed by Jupiter and both planets were about the same size. Apokolips then miraculously seemed to shrink the closer it came to Earth.

#43 xLEGACYx

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:04 AM

Heh, I remember the Smallville finale, too. Looking back on it, problems with size scale between Apokolips and Earth were just as big an issue in those last episodes as the lack of gravitional disruption. I seem to remember as Apokolips made its way toward Earth, it passed by Jupiter and both planets were about the same size. Apokolips then miraculously seemed to shrink the closer it came to Earth.

Ah... the magic of tv. Its all in the perception. Maybe it just looked bigger cause the camera angle was closer to Apokolips?

#44 DSkillz

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:18 AM

Nah, even at the angle shown in this picture, if Apokolips and Earth were about the same size, we'd see a curvature of the Earth similar in size to Apokolips (or smaller, depending on how close Apokolips was to Earth).

If Apokolips were the size of Jupiter, at this angle Earth would be even smaller than the biggest buildings shown in this version of downtown Metropolis. Even if the two planets were in collision range, the Earth would barely be 1/10 the size of that downtown area.

Either way, we'd definitely see the curvature of the Earth.

Posted Image

#45 xLEGACYx

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:23 AM

Yeah the picture is way off but the dvd shows it as actual planet size.

#46 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 05:11 AM

1. This is Smallville a tv show and not the real world. The planet in that clip I showed you was just as big as Earth on Smallville.


Thanks for clarifying that it's a TV show. ^_^

If your point is that things like physics and logic don't count on Smallville, I agree. That's always been one of my hang ups with the show.

As for the relative sizes, I think I see what you're talking about. At the very beginning of the clip we briefly see this image...

Posted Image

It does look like the planets are the same size and this picture is a capture from the clip you linked. Of course, the picture I linked is also a capture from the same clip. If you watch the whole thing you'll see it big as day. I can't find a capture of the image DSkillz mentions that shows Apokolips as big as Jupiter, but from the two images I posted (and the clip they come from) it seems that the Smallville folks didn't present the size of the planet in a consistent manner.

2. Smallville and the comics version are different. So comics version doesn't even factor here nor is there any mention of bringing it up.

3. In the Season 11 comics and in Season 10 in the series finale Clark kent moved a planet.


For point 2: I'm not sure what point you're making. I haven't read the Smallville comic and didn't bring it up.

For point 3: Repeating a claim is not really the same as presenting evidence. If there's better evidence in the comics, please post it. I promise to evaluate it as fairly as I can.

There isn't different interpretations. Clark Kent moved a planet if you watched the actually episode, clip I showed you, and if you reading Smallville Season 11 comics currently going on.


You're mistaken. It's clear that we are interpreting the evidence differently. I watched the clip and explained why I thought your understanding was mistaken. I haven't read the comics, but you haven't presented any evidence from the comics.

Plain and Simple. It has been stated and shown. You provided a picture that only shows part of the planet. I showed you a clip that shows you the planet was the same size as Earth.


Well... as I've said, my picture is a capture from your clip. :)

FWIW, you have gotten me to look at all the images in the clip more critically. It seems clear to me that the Smallville folks wanted to show Clark save the day in a dramatic way but they didn't give much thought to how big they wanted Apokalips to be. They succeeded (arguably) in making something entertainment, but were so illogical and inconsistent that this fails to be convincing evidence. It proves that Clark is really strong, but fails to give any clear idea of how strong.

#47 bigballerju

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:17 PM

Did you watch the episode? It clearly showed him moving a planet. Your trying to discredit it when it's clearly shown on the show Superman moved a planet. It was even stated in 2 hour episode to be a planet.

Your ignoring stated fact on the show. Big difference. All the evidence I need is in the actually episode where he is clearly shown to move a planet. It's directly stated in the 2 hours long episode and even in the Season 11 comics that Clark Kent moved a planet. What more evidence do I need?

We know enough from the show that Clark Kent can push a planet easily. It was even shown that the planet was actually just as big as Earth.

Here is a picture from the clip of the planet in a more full view after it's pushed away from Earth.

Posted Image

Here is a scan from the second issue of Smallville Season 11 comics where they mentioned it Clark Kent moving a planet out of orbit.

Posted Image

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:29 PM

Yes, it was a planet, but there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that it was anywhere near as big as the Earth. In fact, the shot posted earlier very clearly shows that it's around the size of Metropolis, while everything else can be attributed to depth perception.

#49 bigballerju

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:47 PM

No its clearly close to the size of Earth. Once again look at the scan he posted earlier. It wasn't just depth perception. What you saw was the lower bottom of the planet above Earth. We see in two full views with this shot and the one I posted it's close in size to Earth.

Posted Image

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:48 PM

Yes. It was.

#51 bigballerju

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:08 PM

So you agree with me?

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:36 PM

No. It was depth perception. Or just inconsistency. Either way, it was later shown that it's the size of Metropolis, so... retcon?

#53 bigballerju

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 02:58 PM

It wasn't the size of Metropolis. Where are you getting that from? In the show it was shown to be just as large as Earth when it was right next to it. You also saw how large the planet was when Clark pushed it away. LOL a planet that huge was the size of Metropolis? No I don't think so. The planet was above Metropolis as it was coming down on Earth. That was just a lower portion of the planet. Throughout the episode it was shown to be a planet close in size to Earth.

I'll provide more pictures from the episodes but I really shouldn't have to. It clearly shows it throughout the entire episode.

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:02 PM

What on Earth are you talking about? It curves upwards at the edge of the city. It's the size of Metropolis.

#55 force_echo

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:22 PM

You don't know if that's the whole planet, it could just be a spherical mountain protruding from the actual planet.

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 04:43 PM

No, it is the whole planet, because a little bit later Superman flies it away and there's no trace of anything attached to the back of it.

#57 bigballerju

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 04:49 PM

Finally here is the clip I was looking for. This is the entire planet coming toward Earth. It's actually bigger then Earth.



#58 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 06:13 PM

You don't know if that's the whole planet, it could just be a spherical mountain protruding from the actual planet.


If it is, the mountain has exactly the came topography as the planet, right down to fire pits in the same places. Also, there are no spherical mountains seen on the planet in any of the long shots.


It wasn't the size of Metropolis. Where are you getting that from?


First, thanks for the comic scan. Unfortunately, it only gives us Lois's statement and she seems more interested in praising the man she loves than in rendering precise scientific information in that scene.

As several of us have stated, the idea that the planet is roughly the size of Metropolis comes from this image...

Posted Image



I know you don't like that image, but is was there in the episode. I don't understand why you disregard this while claiming the other image is conclusive.

In the show it was shown to be just as large as Earth when it was right next to it. You also saw how large the planet was when Clark pushed it away. LOL a planet that huge was the size of Metropolis? No I don't think so. The planet was above Metropolis as it was coming down on Earth. That was just a lower portion of the planet. Throughout the episode it was shown to be a planet close in size to Earth.


You write as if your opinion is self-evident. It isn't and that's why I (and others) disagree. I've looked at this very carefully and given my reasons for disagreeing with you. You have not offered any arguments that demonstrate I am wrong, you have only repeated your opinion. I'm sorry, but that's just not evidence.

You are correct when you say that we are seeing the lower part of the planet. Based on the curvature, its easy to extrapolate this and see that it's about 1/3 of the planet. When two planets are almost touching and you see the curvature of one but the other looks perfectly flat, that means the one that appears flat is much, much bigger than the curved one; this is basic geometry.

Look at 0:00 on the video clip you posted. This is the image that the capture that looks like two planets of equal size almost touching. It might be that, but it could just as easily be a trick of perspective. If the camera's POV is from a point in space that the planet is passing as it approaches earth, the planet would be much smaller than earth. It's impossible to tell which understanding is better.

Look at 0:58. You'll see Clark flying toward Metropolis. The planet has nearly touched the city but you can see the lower third of it. It's essentially the same image as my scan but with Clark flying through it. Apokolips, at its widest point, is slightly wider than Metropolis.

Look at the video at 1:35. If that looks familiar, that's because this is the image I posted. :)

Look at 1:42, this is the perspective from the ground. The people in Metropolis are looking up at Apokolips. You can see a little about half of the planet from this angle. You can see an edge and, by it's curvature, tell that the entire perimeter of the planet would be visible to someone on the ground. There ate two ways for this to be possible.

1) This is an earth sized object, but it is still relatively far from the earth--say the distance of the moon.
2) This is an object that is millions of times smaller than the earth that is only a few hundred feet over Metropolis.

It cannot possibly be an earth sized object that is a few hundred feet from the city. If that were the case the planet would fill the sky from horizon to horizon. You would not be able to see any edge at all.

Look at 1:57. This is essentially the image I posted first, but now Clark is streaking toward the object. You can see the edge so it is either an earth-sized object millions of miles away or a much smaller object a few hundred feet away.

At 2:13 the planet begins of move out of the frame; Clark has reached it and is starting to push. The edge of the planet is clearly visible and the way the sky lightens quickly as the edge shifts out of sight. This wouldn't happen if this were Force Echo's spherical mountain.

At 2:46 we see Apokolips moving away from earth. We can see the curvature of the earth in a way that is only possible from orbital distances. We can also see a small red and blue blur just left of center. This resolves into Clark. He has stopped pushing the planet and is watching as it drifts into space. Clark is only a few hundred feet from the but we can see the planet's curvature. This is only possible if the planet is relatively small--say the size of a city.

There are 7 appearances of the planet in this video. Of these 6 clearly show the planet is much smaller than the earth. The 7th may show they are the same size, but that is open to interpretation. Please tell me why we should disregard the 6 scenes in favor of your interpretation of the 1 scene.

So, physics says it makes more sense that this is a city-sized planet, geometry says that it is a city sized planet, and most of the visual evidence says it is a city-sized planet. It's nothing personal, but I'm going to go with this over the opinions of you and Lois Lane. ^_^

Please note, I'm not saying that Smallville Clark can't move an earth-sized planet; maybe he can. All I'm saying is that he clearly doesn't in this episode.

#59 Dinsdale Piranha

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 06:31 PM

Ah, evidence at last!

This is the scene DSkillz referred to. The way Apokalips disrupts the rings of Saturn is unambiguous. This is not a matter of perspective, it really is at least the size of Saturn. More than that, as a terrestrial (solid) planet it would be many times as massive as the gas giant it passes.

It also demonstrates that whoever is steering it is doing a terrible job. It should be easy to come into the system without side-swiping another planet. :D

The only problem with this scene is that it doesn't match any of the other scenes in the episode. We have one scene where it's as big as Saturn, one where it seems to be the same size as earth, and half a dozen where it is slightly bigger than Metropolis. Which one do you pick?

You can pick your favorite, you can pick the one that is the most logical, you can even say that they're all accurate and that Apokolips gets smaller as it gets closer (I actually like the last one, it's elegant.) The thing you can't do is prove any of them. The presentation of the planet is so inconsistent that any choice you make is arbitrary.

The only way I can see to resolve this is to find a script or interview where the producers or the writer say how big they meant it to be. If they said they wanted Apokolips to be bigger than the earth but the sfx guys said they couldn't do that, I'd be glad to accept it.

Finally here is the clip I was looking for. This is the entire planet coming toward Earth. It's actually bigger then Earth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-wmNRy0z7U&list=PL47FF543C2F1E20B6



#60 DSkillz

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 06:42 PM

I was just getting ready to post that the planet Apokolips was shown passing on its way to Earth may have actually been Saturn, and that vid is proof of that. It's been over half a year since I've seen those final eps, though, so I couldn't say for certain until now. I'm also thinking that while the producers very likely meant for Apokolips to be planet-sized, they clearly messed up on scaling with most of the shots of the planet as it neared Metropolis.

Anyways, I may post a bit more on-topic in a bit.




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