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#101 xLEGACYx

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 08:59 PM

NO ONE USES GUNS FOR SELF DEFENSE. Only 0.2% of gun related homicides have anything to do with self defense and that INCLUDES cops shooting in self defense. Using that argument is like saying that the 99.8% of people dying is less important that the 0.2% you would save by giving them the capacity to use a firearm in self defense. I never said the problem would instantly dissipate, yes, people who have already bought guns would likely still have them, but they can't get new ones. Therefore, the market is destroyed and within a couple of years, gun violence will be eliminated, it's happened in every country that's banned or restricted gun ownership.

America outlawed illegal drugs; that is why today America has zero drug abuse - no illegal drugs! Right? Not exactly.

just have to say that your reasoning is absurd and totally false in american society.

#102 Darxeth

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:45 PM

FACT: Japan banned guns and they only had 2 people die from gun-related deaths a few years back, and they barely topple the single digit mark annually.

America averages around 40,000 gun-related deaths every year. (excluding suicides)

2 as opposed to 40,000? You gotta be kiddin me.

I love guns just as much as the next guy, but we REALLY don't need them.

#103 bigballerju

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:56 PM

If Bombs were so easy to make then one of these idiots would have made one by now and walked into a school to blow something up. Seriously folks this is the real world. Your being very short sighted and not thinking correctly if you don't believe banning guns will not have a huge affect on these killing sprees.What's even funnier is even in America it's already been shown if you take precautions to stop gun violence and any other weapons (knifes) crime will go down. Hence my example of the metal detectors in New York Schools.

Look at the facts most crimes with weapons are guns. Are you people forgetting these are regular teens with no crime history doing these crime sprees? This isn't some Bin Laden or America's Most Wanted. You think if these kids were capable of whipping up bombs so easily they wouldn't have done it? How many people you think can whip up a bomb easily by looking up how to make a bomb for dummies on Google?

Once again these kids committing these shootings don't know a damn thing about drug dealing, gun trafficking, and more. Why are you bringing that up? Seriously pay attention to the actual facts. These teens are students who have some serious issues and decide to take their family's weapons to use them to harm people. That's the issue we are talking about. These are not even gang members, criminals, Cartels, or anything like that. By the way this isn't Mexico. We don't have Cartels, Crime lords, or any of those problems anymore.

You ban all guns these shooting sprees will stop for a very good while maybe a long time. These teenagers will have no guns in there homes or at a gun shop to get to kill innocent people. These shooting sprees aren't happening by criminals or anybody like that so why are people bringing up that sort of nonsense? Enough with that.

#104 xLEGACYx

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:08 AM

As far as more precautions I couldnt agree more. That was the whole point behind the article I posted. But I will never agree to banning all guns. Although the gov. could try, they could never ban all guns. There are too many legal guns in the US to even try. Much less the illegal ones.

#105 force_echo

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 10:20 AM

America outlawed illegal drugs; that is why today America has zero drug abuse - no illegal drugs! Right? Not exactly.

First of all, most illegal drugs that people use, i.e, marijuana which tops the chart of illegal drug use by a factor of over 10,000 percent, aren't very illegal. A first time marijuana possession gets you a relatively small fine (2,000 bucks), your drivers license revoked for 90 days, and a MAXIMUM of a year in jail (although I've never actually heard of someone getting a year in jail). Second of all, marijuana still has a legal outlet (medicinal license) so the supply chain isn't dead for it. Third, drugs like Heroin and Meth are frequently imported from across the border, guns aren't. In fact, it's other countries who get guns from the US, not the other way around. Your faulty argument was amusing, but incorrect in every aspect.

#106 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 10:35 AM

Here is my final word:

Take away fully automatic weapons, that is fine. Just know that if they do take away all guns, they won't stop there. Ever hear of "give them an inch they'll take a mile"? You let them take away the 2nd Amendment, what will be next? They did take away our 5th until the NDAA was revised. History has shown when weapons are taken away, civilians die. Now I know you feel safe living in your suburbia area, but when you look outside your rainbow and gum drop bubble, the world is an ugly place, filled with ugly people. The same ugly people that don't listen to laws now. New laws will not stop them. I know all the liberals want to hold hands and sing Dr. Seuss songs, but that isn't the world we live in.

Then again, most of you haven't had something happen to you, to make you feel unsafe. If it weren't for my gun, I would have been mauled by a bear. While guns do make it easier to kill than a knife, people will die regardless. I could fill up a super soaker with gasoline, and light small children on fire. Then super soakers get taken away. Let's stop blaming inanimate objects, and take a look at our society. We have our president hanging out with Jay-Z. A man who has stabbed another man, a man who raps about selling coke, and doing it. A man who has no problem taking someone's life, so why is he friends with the leader of this country? What kind of message does that send to young kids?

Our society is definitely fucked up. It is up to our generation to do something about it. That requires too much work though huh?

Feel free to reply, I'll read, but I won't reply back. This is all opinion, and there are too many opinionated people on this site(me included). Some of you guys are douche bags(me included), some of you are cool. Overall, you guys are good people. Be safe, enjoy our last day on Earth(that is a joke), and have a good holiday.

#107 force_echo

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 11:29 AM

Here is my final word:

Take away fully automatic weapons, that is fine. Just know that if they do take away all guns, they won't stop there. Ever hear of "give them an inch they'll take a mile"? You let them take away the 2nd Amendment, what will be next? They did take away our 5th until the NDAA was revised. History has shown when weapons are taken away, civilians die. Now I know you feel safe living in your suburbia area, but when you look outside your rainbow and gum drop bubble, the world is an ugly place, filled with ugly people. The same ugly people that don't listen to laws now. New laws will not stop them. I know all the liberals want to hold hands and sing Dr. Seuss songs, but that isn't the world we live in.

Then again, most of you haven't had something happen to you, to make you feel unsafe. If it weren't for my gun, I would have been mauled by a bear. While guns do make it easier to kill than a knife, people will die regardless. I could fill up a super soaker with gasoline, and light small children on fire. Then super soakers get taken away. Let's stop blaming inanimate objects, and take a look at our society. We have our president hanging out with Jay-Z. A man who has stabbed another man, a man who raps about selling coke, and doing it. A man who has no problem taking someone's life, so why is he friends with the leader of this country? What kind of message does that send to young kids?

Our society is definitely *vulgarity*ed up. It is up to our generation to do something about it. That requires too much work though huh?

Feel free to reply, I'll read, but I won't reply back. This is all opinion, and there are too many opinionated people on this site(me included). Some of you guys are douche bags(me included), some of you are cool. Overall, you guys are good people. Be safe, enjoy our last day on Earth(that is a joke), and have a good holiday.

Lolwut? Yes, first they take away our right to use guns, next, we'll all be living in an authoritarian government where the Gestapo executes any dissenters. That's definitely how it is in Britain, Germany, and Japan right now. I hear you can't even fart without Big Brother registering your location and executing you for public disturbance in Japan. And it's all because they don't have guns.

Actually, I'm pretty sure history has shown the exact opposite of "when guns are taken away, civilians die", in fact, history has pretty clearly shown that when you take away guns, homicide rates plummet drastically. But no, taking away guns increases civilian death, that's definitely why China has 1/4th the homicide rate the US has, despite of having a much poorer population and more high density population sectors, both known markers for intentional homicide. Also, it doesn't matter if criminals don't want to follow the law, there's literally nowhere to get guns. I know conservatives want to shoot the shit out of everyone, but that isn't the world we live in.

And I know you aren't the parent of a child who got killed by a gun toting psycho. Your stupid non-fact based argument works both ways. Has anyone, at any point in this debate, ever said that, if you take guns away, no more people will die? If anyone during any point in this entire discussion has said that, please point it out. Yeah, that's what I thought. But the attitude that a higher homicide rate is equal to a lower homicide rate is so backwards and flat out retarded that it's no wonder you're a conservative. If you really think you can kill anyone with a super soaker and matches, you're an idiot. If you actually think someone will attempt to kill anyone with a super soaker and matches, you are an idiot. This idea conservatives have that guns don't have a higher lethal capacity than other weapons is hilarious, and flies in the way of simple logic. Less people get killed if you take away guns, that's a simple fact.

What? What the hell does the president and Jay-Z have to do with anything about gun control you moron? And besides, everyone knows it's because Jay-Z and the President are both a part of the Illuminati and want to convert everyone to Satanism through their evil plot. To destroy the world

I agree, the world is *vulgarity*ed up, people killing other people with guns all the time, and wouldn't changing it be so much easier if it weren't for idiot conservatives making sure that you have the right to shoot people.

It's not opinion actually, I'm pretty sure it's just you spouting things that are factually wrong and trying to make them look like an opinion. That's like me saying it's in my opinion that the Earth was created 6,000 years ago or that evolution isn't real or that being homosexual is a choice. That's not an opinion, that's just someone being wrong.

#108 xLEGACYx

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 11:39 AM

First of all, most illegal drugs that people use, i.e, marijuana which tops the chart of illegal drug use by a factor of over 10,000 percent, aren't very illegal. A first time marijuana possession gets you a relatively small fine (2,000 bucks), your drivers license revoked for 90 days, and a MAXIMUM of a year in jail (although I've never actually heard of someone getting a year in jail). Second of all, marijuana still has a legal outlet (medicinal license) so the supply chain isn't dead for it. Third, drugs like Heroin and Meth are frequently imported from across the border, guns aren't. In fact, it's other countries who get guns from the US, not the other way around. Your faulty argument was amusing, but incorrect in every aspect.

hmmm... could it be they get guns from us due to the fact the we have what they want. If we dont have them, people would get them from other countries the same way they do from us now.

I believe more precautions with guns needs to be in place. Along with allowing law enforcement to do their job and be prepared the same as they let fire fighters do. They wont and could never ban all fire arms. It would be utterly stupid to even try to.

People need to stop blaming the gun and start blaming the person holding it. You could take a grenade and throw it into a crowd of people and it do nothing. It takes the person holding it to pull the pin. The people are the problem and not the weapon. A knife is harmless until someone picks it up and stabs someone with it. If or when a criminal pulls a gun on me, I want the right and ability to shoot him twice and the chest and once in the head for his trouble.

As far as history, I think I already proved that point against yours. Once again for our friends uneducated about the real world

A LITTLE GUN HISTORY

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. >From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 191
7, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.
Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.
Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!
The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.
With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.
During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!
If you value your freedom, please spread this antigun-control message to all of your friends.
SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN!
SWITZERLAND'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE.
SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!
IT'S A NO BRAINER!
DON'T LET OUR GOVERNMENT WASTE MILLIONS OF OUR TAX DOLLARS IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS AN EASY TARGET.
Spread the word everywhere you can that you are a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment!

It's time to speak loud before they try to silence and disarm us.
You're not imagining it, history shows that governments always manipulate tragedies to attempt to disarm the people


#109 xLEGACYx

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 11:57 AM

Since you all love stats and proof

Posted Image

what happened in Australia from the peoples own words

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8RDWltHxRc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH7tRP_EZ9w

#110 corvette1710

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:04 PM

The Japanese decided not to invade America because that would be a *vulgarity*ing stupid move on their part. Yes, we'll waltz right into the most powerful country on the planet and see if we can start more shit! It's not like they'll do anything in retaliation!

-.-

The reason the entirety of the Swiss population has guns is because they're all part of the militia.

#111 xLEGACYx

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:15 PM

now tell me the above and this here doesnt make sense. You cant ignore the facts.



#112 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:40 PM

Actually, I'm pretty sure history has shown the exact opposite of "when guns are taken away, civilians die", in fact, history has pretty clearly shown that when you take away guns, homicide rates plummet drastically.

it's no wonder you're a conservative. If you really think you can kill anyone with a super soaker and matches, you're an idiot. If you actually think someone will attempt to kill anyone with a super soaker and matches, you are an idiot. This idea conservatives have that guns don't have a higher lethal capacity than other weapons is hilarious,

I agree, the world is screwed up, people killing other people with guns all the time, and wouldn't changing it be so much easier if it weren't for idiot conservatives making sure that you have the right to shoot people.

What? What the hell does the president and Jay-Z have to do with anything about gun control you moron?

Yeah I said I wouldn't reply, but too many wrong things here.

Really, cause facts show that 56 million people have died through guns being taken away. More than homicides caused by guns.

I'm not conservative. I have views that fall on both ends of the spectrum. I am in the middle. So throwing gasoline on someone and lighting them on fire won't kill them? Interesting. Considering people have attempted to kill each other with newspaper, it isn't that far fetched. If you actually read my post, and didn't skim it, I clearly state guns do make it easier to kill someone.

Really? Cause people have been murdering each other looong before guns were made. Nice try though. That is what I am talking about, you think taking away guns and POOF homicide rate just plummets.

When did I say it did? I was talking about our society. I think it is fucked up that an admitted drug dealer and "killer" is buddy buddy with the president. Why put those kind of people in the spot light? Young black people look up to Obama, he shouldn't be friendly with drug dealers. Something the president is supposed to be cracking down on. You really don't have a problem with the president being friends with a coke dealer? Of course you don't have a problem, his genitalia is too far up your pooper to see other wise.

It's funny how in the ghetto people are killing each other and no one cares. When it happens in white suburbia, everyone wants to take away guns. It's hilarious you and surfer accuse me of not valuing life(because I want to defend myself, intercourse me right?) when I hear neither of you speaking about the conditions of inner city violence. You only care when a bunch of people die at once, and when it is on the news, now you want to take away guns. Where is your out cry when people are getting mowed down in the hood? Oh that's right, because it isn't a headline, that is why you don't care.

EDIT: Oh and I love how the anti gun peeps can't dispute the facts Legacy has posted. You want guns to be taken away because you are scared. It's okay to be afraid of dying, but don't place your insecurities on inanimate objects. Ah heck I'm trying to tell someone to not be insecure who couldn't ask his own gf to a dance.

DOUBLE EDIT: Removed the swear words.

#113 corvette1710

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:48 PM

I thought you'd withdrawn, Hayes. <_<

Anyway, Legacy, your videos concerning the rise in crime rate and the ban on guns in D.C. have no correlation. You're matching two things that can't be matched. At best, a small portion of that crime rate is caused by people not having guns.

#114 Ruinus

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:50 PM

It'd like to remind you guys that this is on the Global Off-topic section of the site, so keep the swearing to a minimum or I'll have to put this back in the Adult section, and I'm positive not everyone debating here can enter that section.

#115 Darxeth

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:53 PM

http://www.theatlant...-deaths/260189/

#116 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:55 PM

I thought you'd withdrawn, Hayes.

Every time I get out, they pull me back in. Being serious, there was just a few things that Force was wrong about that needed correcting.

Now I am done.


Maybe.

#117 force_echo

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 03:57 PM

Yeah I said I wouldn't reply, but too many wrong things here.

Really, cause facts show that 56 million people have died through guns being taken away. More than homicides caused by guns.

I'm not conservative. I have views that fall on both ends of the spectrum. I am in the middle. So throwing gasoline on someone and lighting them on fire won't kill them? Interesting. Considering people have attempted to kill each other with newspaper, it isn't that far fetched. If you actually read my post, and didn't skim it, I clearly state guns do make it easier to kill someone.

Really? Cause people have been murdering each other looong before guns were made. Nice try though. That is what I am talking about, you think taking away guns and POOF homicide rate just plummets.

When did I say it did? I was talking about our society. I think it is *vulgarity*ed up that an admitted drug dealer and "killer" is buddy buddy with the president. Why put those kind of people in the spot light? Young black people look up to Obama, he shouldn't be friendly with drug dealers. Something the president is supposed to be cracking down on. You really don't have a problem with the president being friends with a coke dealer? Of course you don't have a problem, his genitalia is too far up your pooper to see other wise.

It's funny how in the ghetto people are killing each other and no one cares. When it happens in white suburbia, everyone wants to take away guns. It's hilarious you and surfer accuse me of not valuing life(because I want to defend myself, intercourse me right?) when I hear neither of you speaking about the conditions of inner city violence. You only care when a bunch of people die at once, and when it is on the news, now you want to take away guns. Where is your out cry when people are getting mowed down in the hood? Oh that's right, because it isn't a headline, that is why you don't care.

EDIT: Oh and I love how the anti gun peeps can't dispute the facts Legacy has posted. You want guns to be taken away because you are scared. It's okay to be afraid of dying, but don't place your insecurities on inanimate objects. Ah heck I'm trying to tell someone to not be insecure who couldn't ask his own gf to a dance.


What facts? Are you talking about that bullshit Legacy posted? Hey, let me educate you on a basic tenant of causality and correlation, finding a genocide, and then finding some gun control law before that genocide does not prove that they are related in any way whatsoever. How freaking stupid do you have to be to actually buy that? i could easily say that the women's right bill was passed before WWII, so obviously, giving women he right to vote caused WWII right? Obviously. If you find a single scholarly or reputable historical article laying out the relation of gun control to genocide, then I will concede the point. Until then, all you're doing is proving how stupid you are by actually using that argument. I also love how none of you can debate or refute the fact that every single country with gun control laws has a lower homicide rate than every country without them. No one has even touched that argument, which is funny, because it's pretty damn important.

I said it would be really hard to kill someone with a super soaker and gasoline as opposed to a gun. First of all, you cant just hold a match in front of it, and pretend it's a flamethrower without blowing yourself up in the process. If you're lucky, you might give one dude first or second degree burns before a group of people take you out. If you admit that guns have a higher lethal capacity, then you've conceded the whole damn argument right there. Yeah, people will find a way to kill each other with anything, that's why countries with gun control still don't have a homicide rate of 0. I don't know how to get it through your thick, moronic skull that no one in this thread ever said that no guns = no murders, but taking away guns does drastically lower the homicide rate, you said your damn self that guns have a higher lethal capacity.

People have been murdering each other before guns were made? What the hell does that have to do with anything you idiot? For the last time, NO. ONE. EVER. SAID. THAT. THERE. WILL. BE. ZERO. MURDERS. WITHOUT. GUNS. The fact is that if you take away guns, the homicide rate DOES go down because it is far easier to kill people with a gun than anything else, YOU SAID THAT YOURSELF. That's why every country in the world without guns has a lower homicide rate than every country with them.

I don't see how Obama and Jay-Z being friends has anything to do in the slightest with gun control, whether I think it's right or not.

I don't see the point of this little rebuttal. Taking away guns reduces homicide throughout the entire country, in "the hood" and in "white suburbia". Also, you're talking about hood violence and white suburbia to someone who spent 14 years in inner city Detroit, I'm fairly sure my family is a lot closer than you are to "violence in the hood".

I'm pretty sure I have deconstructed literally every argument Legacy has made (considering how stupid they all are, it's not that hard). If I missed one though, you're free to point it out.

#118 silversurfer092

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 04:15 PM

Correlation is not causation. I learned that shit as a Junior in high school.

With Legacy's history class, it's all BS. Germany? They banned guns because all the German people wanted was peace. Hitler had to show that he was a peace lover, so he took away guns. However, he was a total nutjob who hated the Jews more than anything else. So, he gets the German people to love him, then starts killing the Jews right under their noses. Him banning guns and him killing the Jews have no correlation whatsoever. Trust me, I only spent 10 weeks learning about Hitler.

With Russia, that happened because they were ruled by Stalin. Last time I checked, Obama is not Stalin. He won't take our guns and then line us all up to die. So, yeah, that has nothing to do with anything.

Cambodia and Uganda. They're in Africa, the most war torn place on the planet. Besides, I bet that either the governments banned guns to try to stop the gang warfare or at least make it easier to crack down on and it kind of backfired. Or heck, maybe it worked. No one posted how many people were dying before the gun laws.

Same goes for China with Russia. The government was a dictatorship and corrupt. Obama isn't a dictator or corrupt. The way that America works won't let a dictator or corrupt government take place so we don't need to worry about that.

We don't care about hood violence? Banning guns will help stop hood violence. They won't have a way to get the guns in about a year or two. Then they can't go around shooting everyone. All this "They'll find ways to get guns" bs. PROVE IT.

#119 Ruinus

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:07 PM

Ok, this is getting locked for a few reasons.
  • It was right on the edge of turning straight into a nose dive of the same posts being repeated over and over. See xLEGACYx posting the same chain letter gun facts twice, the "Only outlaws will have guns" "only guns prevent genocide" "people still kill people without guns" arguments that were being repeated.
  • Due to it looking as if it was about take that nose dive the swearing was starting to go up, and this is the PG-13 part of this site so no. Sure, it wasn't alot of swearing, but it was getting there.
  • In my opinion it had already gone straight off topic from the original point, which was the school shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School, some could argue (perhaps with some merit) that this current gun ban topic is on-topic, and sure, that's why I didn't split that discussion from the shooting part but, going with the two reason above, I figured it didn't need to go further.





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