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Another American School Shooting


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#41 silversurfer092

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:03 PM

Again, it's a step in the right direction. You're not going to solve this problem with one bill passed. You have to start somewhere. The Colorado shooting might have been a whole lot less deadlier if he didn't have an assault rifle. There's also the fact that even a giant NRA supporter is saying we need some sort of gun control. So you saying "banning only one kind of gun is stupid and pointless" is stupid.

#42 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:07 PM

Is that map reliably accurate? I mean I know the West Coast had fewer school incidents but that much? Eh.

Banning assault rifles would do well for the law abiding populace but since the majority of violent crime perpetrators are people with criminal history, it wouldn't matter to them. Their modus operandi is breaking the law.

Perhaps having firearms specifically triggered to the fingerprints/DNA of the owner, so no one else could use it? That prevents theft of the weapon and using of it, as was the case in Conneticut. I mean, I've seen cars that won't start without you buckling a seatbelt or self driving cars, surely that idea isn't out of reach.

#43 force_echo

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:08 PM

No, its not a step in the right direction, you don't understand politics. You know why the NRA dude supports banning assault rifles? Because it gets people complacent, if they see some legislation passed, it doesn't matter which kind, they cool off, and get off the tail of complete gun banning. It's called giving them a little fish to make them forget about the big one. How the hell do you think it would look if he didn't support the banning of assault rifles in a time like this? He'll lose his job over that. Keep them on the issue of banning assault rifles so one gets riled up about banning guns altogether.

The shooting would have been no less deadlier if he was using handguns, it's not like you need penetrating power and rate of fire to kill kids.

#44 silversurfer092

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:44 PM

The shooting at Colorado would have been less deadlier. He can't move down rows and rows, mowing people down. Newtown would have been the same, yes.

While it might get the people complacent, it would also hopefully be a foot in the door. Ban assault rifles, then just ban rifles. Then handguns. You can't just start by banning every single gun ever. That's not going to work.

#45 bigballerju

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:36 PM

The problem with banning guns is people will start bringing up the Constitution with the Right to Bear Arms and all of that. It's not so easy to just up and ban guns like people think. That's a serious issue.

#46 Z451

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 07:53 PM

it's not like you need penetrating power and rate of fire to kill kids.

I'm sorry force but this is just unspeakably disgusting. To be honest, this is affecting my entire household, my mother has been driven paranoid by some a**hole religious zealot who claims everything under the sun as a scapegoat, my father has cried several times, an amazing scenario in its self due to the fact that my father never cries, and I've had emotions ranging from deep despair to anger. However, to see things like this...well it breaks my f***in heart, it really does. These were human beings. I read on through what you said and trust me, I'm not cherry picking, nor trying to anger you or anyone else, but this line seems to have struck a cord, I'd rather not have had struck.

Aside from that... is it time to discuss gun laws in the nation? Why the hell not? But at the end of the day, the mere thought of several Christmas trees with owner less presents, and parents waking up on the 25th with no one there, brings tears to my eyes.

#47 AVP vs The Terminator

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:11 PM

Force is correct in that, in this case, it wouldn't have mattered what type of gun that monster was using.

Also, while that quote about the killer being forgiven in heaven is nice, I'd like to think he's burning in hell for what he's done.

#48 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:22 PM

''If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will own guns"

#49 Peypeypeypey

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:25 PM

And police officers. And the army. But yeah. Close enough

#50 silversurfer092

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:02 PM

''If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will own guns"


Was the shooter of Newtown an outlaw? No. Was the Colorado shooter an outlaw? No. Was the guy who shot up Tempe an outlaw? No. Were the kids who shot up Columbine outlaws? Was Virginia Tech carried out by an outlaw? What about Robert Gladden or Steven Kazmierczak? No. Nice try though.

#51 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:09 PM

Well for the first one I can tell you the shooter was an outlaw at the time of his school shooting, having killed his mom and committing theft beforehand. Not much beforehand but still. But on the whole, yes point conceded.

#52 Darxeth

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:54 PM

If people want guns, they're going to find a way to get them.

#53 force_echo

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:03 PM

It's not that simple. First of all, all of these psychos have little to no criminal history save for like a parking ticket before they decide to shoot up a school/temple/mall/whatever. If you made guns illegal, it's doubtful that they would have guns before they did these things, which is the point Surfer was trying to make. It's not like outlawing guns is going to make a negligible impact on gun-related crime, as people in this thread seem to make out. The UK doesn't even outlaw guns, it just has a lot more stringent requirements than the USA, and it still has a lot lower gun-related crime than the US as a percentage of the population. China outlaws guns, and look at the guy who wanted to kill people in that school, HE DIDN'T USE GUNS.

#54 Darxeth

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:04 PM

Indeed.

#55 kainboa

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:58 PM

Considering the general attitude towards guns in America, and how prevalent they are, simply banning them won't do any good, since there would be a massive outcry against it.

In order to reach a ban on guns in general, It would have to be done in several small steps, rather than all at once.

#56 silversurfer092

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:41 PM

^ This guy. But seriously, I hate how people are so in love with the second amendment. The Constitution was written 200 years ago. It's a dead document. The second amendment doesn't mean shit anymore. The whole purpose was so that the people could defend themselves if the government ever turned on them. We've come along way from having an evil empire rule over us and I don't see Obama trying to conquer the US with the US military. The situation we are in and the situation in which the second amendment was written is ridiculously different. Besides, if you really think you can stop the US military from taking over your house with a handgun, good luck.

#57 Soberguy

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 03:39 PM

So I came back specifically to address this issue, after which I will be gone again. I haven't read every post here, but a lot of the same arguments re: gun control have popped up and I'd like to address them.

Now first of all, the Newtown massacre was a terrible thing. As a parent, I can't even process it. You just instinctively jump between rage and sorrow. But as a thinking person, I can have a reasonable examination of the facts and a discussion of the issues, so fuck you people who say we need some grace period before we can discuss this. FUCK YOU.

Let me break down a few points for you on this:

1) HYPOCRISY: I will specifically address the arguments of the pro and anti gun control lobbies in a moment, but let me first point out that people on both extremes of this issue are usually complete fucking hypocrites. How much do you want to bet that the guy loudly claiming that guns shouldn't be banned just because a small minority use them in a dangerous way would vote down an amendment to legalize drugs? The slippery slope slides both ways, asshole. On the other side, those picketing that guns must be banned to save lives might then hop in their cars, light up a smoke and head out for a drink – all three of which kill as many or more people than guns. If you are going to be an uninformed idiot, at least be a consistent uninformed idiot.

2) SELF-DEFENSE: So this is the big one that gets bounced around by gun advocates and I fucking hate it. Look, I get it. If a teacher had a loaded Glock tucked into her waistband there is a small chance she might have been able to take out the gunman early. That’s the plus side – possibly being able to defend yourself against an armed nutjob. Now let’s look at the down side. She might have accidentally shot a kid with a poorly aimed shot or ricochet. If she was killed, now the gunman has an extra gun with which to rampage. Or maybe – long before the gunman even considered murder – she might accidentally discharge the weapon. Or maybe it gets stolen by a student. Or maybe, when confronting a criminal less bent on mass murder, pulling a weapon escalates a less threatening situation into a shootout. Or maybe the teacher has a really bad day and instead of peeing into her co-workers coffee mug like a normal person she opts to start rampaging herself. See what I’m saying here? You can’t simply state that you need guns for self-defence. You need to show me that having a gun strapped to your thigh in a public school does more good than harm. I bet if you pile up the number of criminal nutjobs shot by citizens in self-defence, it is vastly outnumbered by the number of people who have been killed by gun accidents or any other situation described above.

3) TYRANNY: Yes morons, the government is just waiting for an excuse to take away your guns so they can create their fascist dictatorship. It’s an obvious fact. I mean, look at us up here in Canada. Why oh why did my Canadian forefathers not allow the government to take modest, reasonable steps to regulate gun ownership?!?! Now look at us: no civil rights, 7pm curfew, forced labour, a diet of thin gruel and maple syrup. You Americans should thank the gun lobby for sparing you from this fate! ….Okay but seriously, I get the logic: if the people are armed, the ability of the government to militarily suppress the people is reduced. Ignoring for the moment that this simply isn’t going to happen in a modern Western democracy, have you people considered the flipside? The same guns which can be stockpiled to overthrow a tyrannical government can be used to overthrow a reasonable, legitimate government. Coups oust dictators, but they also install them as well, dumbasses.

4) THE SECOND AMENDMENT: You know what? Fuck your second amendment. Seriously. Fuck your whole damned constitution. Just because the Founding Fathers crafted a pretty bitchin governing document a couple of centuries ago doesn’t mean that you need to stick your fingers in your ears and ignore the progress of society. You all got together and (finally) agreed that maybe you shouldn’t OWN PEOPLE, so I don’t think it’s a huge stretch to suggest that maybe you can throw an amendment in which spells out the rights of gun ownership in a more modern context. I don’t think anyone who wrote the Constitution expected that it would never change… that might be why you have fucking amendments in the first place you fucking morons!

5) CAN’T STOP CRAZY PEOPLE: Yes it’s true – if someone is hell-bent on mass murder there is little you can do to stop them. You know what you can do though? Limit their options. If I snapped right now and decided to take out a crowd of Christmas shoppers, I wouldn’t have the slightest idea how to procure a gun. I couldn’t buy one without a lengthy registration process or some insider knowledge of where to get a stolen one. By that time, my meds would have kicked in or the voices in my head might have told me to just stalk Cee Lo Green instead. So what’s a nutjob to do without quick access to a firearm? Grab a knife, I guess. Still deadly, but I’d rather face a guy holding a knife than a guy holding a gun, wouldn’t you?

6) YOU CAN GET GUNS ANYWAY: Yes, you can get illegal guns readily… IN AMERICA. Look, last time I checked, criminals didn’t open up a factory to make their own guns. If guns were more tightly regulated maybe manufacturers would stop churning those bad boys out non-stop. Over time, the number which trickled out of legal hands and into criminal hands would be less and less. If only say 0.5% of all guns wind up in the hands of criminals, wouldn’t you feel safer in a country making 100,000 a year (500 to crooks) than 5,000,000 (25,000 to crooks)? It’s fucking MATH, bitches. At least make it tough for them – force them to smuggle them in or concoct increasingly crazy schemes to get them – so that law enforcement has more opportunities to intervene. The longer it takes for a criminal to put their hands on a gun, the more time there is for the criminal act to be stopped.

7) CRIMINALS DON’T FOLLOW GUN LAWS: No shit, Sherlock. Guess what though? Most mass murderers aren’t criminals until they start shooting, so tighter gun laws would have an impact. Also, you know who criminals tend to kill with their illegal guns? Other fucking criminals. Murdering innocent people is a poor business model. Most murders of non-criminals are done by family members or friends. You are far more likely to be killed by your spouse while you barricade yourself inside your home to keep safe from the roving bands of murderous street toughs you think are out there. Criminals will ALWAYS get guns, but controlling gun ownership amongst non-criminals will still make you safer.

8) PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE: Yeah, they do. So maybe when your President tries to give you universal health care which might make mental health care more affordable and accessible to people you support him. You can’t say “screw you poor people” and refuse to pay for their anti-schizo meds and then complain when they start shooting. It’s a lot smarter to stop a crazy person with a fistful of pills and a trained psychiatrist than with a concealed handgun.

Anyhow, there’s more but I don’t really want to post here. I just had to get that all off my chest. Please respond with your incorrect counter-arguments and Treacherous or someone will explain why you are wrong.

#58 force_echo

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:15 PM

Awesome. Wholeheartedly agree for once.

#59 silversurfer092

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:26 PM

Awesome. Wholeheartedly agree for once.


OMG ME AND FORCE COMPLETELY AGREE ON SOMETHING. The world can end now!

#60 Darxeth

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:34 PM

Ya know, I love guns, but you guys are right. They do more harm than good for civilians.




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