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Darth Vader and Starkiller VS X-Men


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#21 sirmethos

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:40 PM

Not really, no.

The X-men's numbers are much higher, but that's not the same.

#22 comic_book_fan

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:47 PM

storm could solo.

#23 sirmethos

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:18 PM

So could either of the Sith.

#24 bigballerju

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:36 PM

Not really. Debatable though.

#25 comic_book_fan

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:50 PM

So could either of the Sith.

true but the x-men also have numbers.

#26 xLEGACYx

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:51 PM

any charged material thrown at Vader or Starkiller by Gambit can be redirected back at the X-men. Storm cant summon a Flash Freeze, Tornado, or Hurricane without endangering her whole team in the process.

As far as Rogue goes, she cant touch Vader.

Also even as strong as Starkiller is shown to be in the novels and games, Vader was still a step ahead of him.

Im not saying one side wins over the other but its not easy for either side.

#27 bigballerju

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:58 PM

Yea Storm has never had a problem summoning hurricanes, tornados, snow blizzards, and more when her team members are around. She has been doing that for years. Rogue I said would absorb her X-Men team members abilities. As far as touching either of Team One she could touch Starkiller but there is no chance in hell that's happening. Vader is stronger in the force then Starkiller. That's the main thing people forget. Darth Vader and the Skywalkers are the strongest. It's been said that by Luke Skywalker and others in the extended universe.

#28 sirmethos

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:34 PM

true but the x-men also have numbers.


True, but the majority of them are useless.

Yea Storm has never had a problem summoning hurricanes, tornados, snow blizzards, and more when her team members are around. She has been doing that for years. Rogue I said would absorb her X-Men team members abilities. As far as touching either of Team One she could touch Starkiller but there is no chance in hell that's happening. Vader is stronger in the force then Starkiller. That's the main thing people forget. Darth Vader and the Skywalkers are the strongest. It's been said that by Luke Skywalker and others in the extended universe.


As far as I know, Vader doesn't have anything to his name that actually proves him stronger than Starkiller. Of course, my memory might be off, so I'm more than willing to be convinced otherwise.

As for Rogue touching her team mates to copy their powers. The chances of that happening are next to zero.

And even if she did, she would just be handing the victory to the two Sith, since the time she uses to gain the powers of her team, is time that the Sith would use to either A. take her(and anyone else still conscious) out, or B. prepare an attack to take her out.

It's true that Storm has multiple ways in which she could take out the two Sith. But likewise, either of the two Sith, have multiple ways in which they could take out Storm(and the rest of the X-men).


I find it amusing, that despite the many people arguing that the X-men would win(some even claim they would do so easily), no one has provided anything to show it.

They have provided nothing to show the X-men as the definitive winners of the fight, or even that they have the better odds of winning. All you have managed, is to show that they have a chance of winning, even a roughly even chance of winning. Which was evident from the start.

#29 treacherous

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:12 AM

Challenge Accepted!

The teams face off. Starkiller opens with a massive dose of electricity. A display of power to prove who is boss. Kitty phases, Wolverine is fried, Rogue is fried, Gambit is fried, Beast is fried, Storm says, "Heh. Cute trick, I learned that when I was four (or something snarky like that in character)" So, Storm is left in the sky. Vader force pushes her to the Earth hard as Starkiller runs in to give her a good chopping. Right before he's on top of the mutant, there is a quick sound... "snikt." As Starkiller runs past the downed Wolverine, he looks down to see three razor sharp claws piercing his chest and pointing out his back. He spits blood and collapses. A charred and fried Wolverine looks more like a burnt corpse than a man. Thinking the man dead, Starkiller ignored him and was rewarded with a quick stab to the chest. Wolverine's mouth cracks as he speaks, "You're going to have to do better than that rookie." Suddenly, he is lifted from the ground, struggling to breath. "Very well.", Vader has him in a tight Force Choke. Lifting the charred body from the ground. Vader chokes him relentlessly until he feels his life force ooze away. "Far too easy." Vader says.

"You're right. It is." Kitty says as she materializes behind Vader. She attempts to get the dark lord in a choke hold. He spins far too quickly for the girl and sends her flying with the Force. As he does so, his body stiffens. The air around him drops way below zero in seconds. His mind clouds and soon, where there was a mighty Sith lord, there stands a mighty nice statue.

Storm rises from the dirt to one knee, her arm outstretched. "Damn you." She says and collapses to the floor.

Winner: X-Men

There you go Methos. Not easy, but a win. It could go either way. I do agree with that.

#30 comic_book_fan

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:13 AM

True, but the majority of them are useless.



As far as I know, Vader doesn't have anything to his name that actually proves him stronger than Starkiller. Of course, my memory might be off, so I'm more than willing to be convinced otherwise.

As for Rogue touching her team mates to copy their powers. The chances of that happening are next to zero.

And even if she did, she would just be handing the victory to the two Sith, since the time she uses to gain the powers of her team, is time that the Sith would use to either A. take her(and anyone else still conscious) out, or B. prepare an attack to take her out.

It's true that Storm has multiple ways in which she could take out the two Sith. But likewise, either of the two Sith, have multiple ways in which they could take out Storm(and the rest of the X-men).


I find it amusing, that despite the many people arguing that the X-men would win(some even claim they would do so easily), no one has provided anything to show it.

They have provided nothing to show the X-men as the definitive winners of the fight, or even that they have the better odds of winning. All you have managed, is to show that they have a chance of winning, even a roughly even chance of winning. Which was evident from the start.

none of the x-men are completely harmless to the sith .
the sith will be buisy keeping wolverine and the others from ripping them apart to pay much attention to what ever storm is doing then boom it's too late.

#31 sirmethos

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 04:34 AM

Challenge Accepted!

The teams face off. Starkiller opens with a massive dose of electricity. A display of power to prove who is boss. Kitty phases, Wolverine is fried, Rogue is fried, Gambit is fried, Beast is fried, Storm says, "Heh. Cute trick, I learned that when I was four (or something snarky like that in character)" So, Storm is left in the sky. Vader force pushes her to the Earth hard as Starkiller runs in to give her a good chopping. Right before he's on top of the mutant, there is a quick sound... "snikt." As Starkiller runs past the downed Wolverine, he looks down to see three razor sharp claws piercing his chest and pointing out his back. He spits blood and collapses. A charred and fried Wolverine looks more like a burnt corpse than a man. Thinking the man dead, Starkiller ignored him and was rewarded with a quick stab to the chest. Wolverine's mouth cracks as he speaks, "You're going to have to do better than that rookie." Suddenly, he is lifted from the ground, struggling to breath. "Very well.", Vader has him in a tight Force Choke. Lifting the charred body from the ground. Vader chokes him relentlessly until he feels his life force ooze away. "Far too easy." Vader says.

"You're right. It is." Kitty says as she materializes behind Vader. She attempts to get the dark lord in a choke hold. He spins far too quickly for the girl and sends her flying with the Force. As he does so, his body stiffens. The air around him drops way below zero in seconds. His mind clouds and soon, where there was a mighty Sith lord, there stands a mighty nice statue.

Storm rises from the dirt to one knee, her arm outstretched. "Damn you." She says and collapses to the floor.

Winner: X-Men

There you go Methos. Not easy, but a win. It could go either way. I do agree with that.


You are ignoring a couple of things.

1. That there is a spiritual aspect in Force Lightning. While Storm would almost definitely be able to shrug off the purely electrical aspect of it, she would still be affected by a blast of Force Lightning, as would Kitty, even if she was phased, though to a considerably lower degree than the rest.

2. The Battle precognition of the Force Users. Which would, among other things, warn Starkiller about Wolverine's attack.

3. That Kitty's phasing, negatively affects electrical circuits. Rather than attempting a choke hold on Vader, she could effectively incapacitate him, simply by walking through him while phased.

4. That the Sith can actually sense whether people are alive/conscious or not.

Finally, you seem to underestimate the brutality of the Sith. Vader using telekinesis to "push Storm to the earth hard", would most likely leave her unconscious, definitely with several broken bones, and possibly dying(if a rib punctures a lung, for example).

#32 potterpuppetpals

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:19 AM

Yeah, Storm may be able to deflect regular lightning, but not force lightning, since it's technically not real lightning.

#33 treacherous

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:12 AM

Wolverine walks through metal detectors with a full metal skeleton. I'm sure he could fake dead even for these Force sensitive types. I wouldn't doubt there's been a story where Wolverine has done so. Also, it's frikkin Wolverine. If Starkiller went to finish him off, it's still Wolver f'n rine! Charred to the bone, the guy still fights. Now, add in the fact that he's now seen his team decimated. Berserker. Even if Starkiller finishes him off.

Storm is a tough old bird. She's got a few seconds of panting, bleeding near-death retaliation. She could still finish Stormkiller in a final all-out blast. It's life or death and we've all seen the X-Men go nutsh!t when they are near death.


Storm may get it, but thanks for giving me Darth's alternate ending with Kitty. Electronics fried. Again, thanks.

#34 treacherous

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:24 AM

Scenario 2: Storm flash freezes both of them at the beginning of the fight. Wolverine strolls forward and lops their head off.

Sure it's out of character for her (unless they had already done something to prove themselves worthy of this beatdown), but yeah.

#35 comic_book_fan

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 10:19 AM

yeah if they got storm near death and most of the team was dead already she would them with giant storm and destroy both sith lords not to mention wolverine was completely incenerated in avx twice where there was nothing visibly left of him and came back in seconds there is little the sith can do to him.

#36 sirmethos

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:38 AM

You do realize, that there's a pretty good chance that the two Sith could protect themselves against Storm's powers, right?

Force Users considerably less powerful, or skilled, than either of them, have walked through all kinds of extreme weather conditions, completely unharmed.


Walking on lava, walking in actual Acid rain, walking on top of a train in a major storm, etc. etc.

Storm could likely still incapacitate them in various ways, but most of her 'standard' attacks, would be easily countered by the two Sith.

#37 treacherous

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:59 AM

Key word: Standard attacks.

The question would be, how would the Sith react to this attack. Who would they attack first? Wolverine would obviously be the first to attack. They'd dispatch him pretty easily, but we all know he's not staying down. Wolverine always provides the initial distraction for a well planned attack. I think Gambit could be a larger threat than presented. He's skilled enough to avoid a decent enough hand to hand fight. Plus, he's ridiculously sneaky. My guess is he'd try to get in a charge on their clothing once he realized the thrown objects don't work. If he survived the initial onslaught. I'd see them taking this fight like a battle against telekinetic fighters. They'd utilize Storm and try to keep the Sith occupied with diversions.

#38 bigballerju

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:11 PM

How would Vader protect himself from a snow blizzard, hurricane, tornados, and weather like that? Also what proof do you have Storm would be effected by a force lightening? What's to say that the force lightening wouldn't harm Storm the same way normal lightening doesn't? Also the Sith would need a little time to use Battle precognition. Time they won't have here. I agree that the X-Men win here. They have taken down more powerful opponents.

#39 treacherous

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:25 PM

But yeah, they'd need more long distance strikers. Powerful ones too. Hmm, now what two X-Men could make a good, but not overwhelming fight with these two Sith?

#40 sirmethos

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 06:04 PM

-snip-


"How would Vader protect himself from a snow blizzard, hurricane, tornados, and weather like that?"

I'll first take the three specific examples you ask for:

Snow Blizzard: In this, I also include any other utilization of negative(freezing) temperatures that Storm might use. Darth Vader's armor is essentially an advanced life-support system. Among other features that it has, it has a very effective temperature regulation system. Effective enough that he could walk around on the surface of Hoth, with no discomfort from the temperatures, with no extra protective equipment.

Hurricane/Tornadoes: These are both just different applications of powerful winds, and the counter for those is quite simple. The same as much less powerful Jedi(and sith) like Jaden Korr, used to avoid being blown away by the hurricane strength winds, while walking(and fighting) on top of a speeding train during a storm. A simple application of telekinesis, as a counter-force to the wind.

In order for me to accurately provide examples of counter-measures against other kinds of weather, you would have to provide specific weather conditions for which you would like counter-measures.

Storm's standard operating procedure in a fight, is to utilize powerful winds(easily countered), extreme, but not lethal, negative temperatures(again, easily countered), and the occasional lightning(easily countered or dodged).

Any other, more extreme, measures from Storm, would only come after the Sith have proven that such measures are necessary. At which point, it would frankly be too late.


"Also what proof do you have Storm would be effected by a force lightening?"

The same as I have for Shadowcat, even phased, being at least partially effected. The fact that Force Lightning, is not just an electric charge, it also contains a spiritual element. As shown when a disembodied Luke Skywalker, was actually affected by the Lightning of Kyp Durron(controlled/manipulated by Exar Kun).

Storm could obviously avoid taking damage from the purely electrical part of the Force Lightning. But she has nothing to protect her against that spiritual aspect of the Force Lightning.


"Also the Sith would need a little time to use Battle precognition."

No, they really wouldn't. You're thinking about Battle Meditation.

Their Battle Precognition, is an automatic ability, it is what allows them to block/deflect blaster fire, and dodge Sniper fire from rifles whose beings come at light speed(disrupter rifles), among other things. It is the same ability that, while untrained, allowed Anakin Skywalker, to participate in a sport, that regular humans simply do/did not have sufficiently fast reflexes to participate in. It is the same ability that allowed Qui-Gon Jinn, to catch Jar-Jar's tongue, while the latter was attempting to snatch food with it. I could keep providing similar examples, but I assume that at this point you're starting to get the picture.


"I agree that the X-Men win here."

Of course you do, just like several others in this thread. But just like the rest of the people proclaiming that X-men definitely wins, you haven't provided, even a single solid argument, showing the X-men as the definitive winners of the fight.


"They have taken down more powerful opponents."

Absolutely true. But they have also been, easily, defeated by opponents who were far less powerful, and far less capable, than the two Sith.

And likewise, the two Sith(even individually) have taken down far more powerful opponents than this team of X-men.



Really, there are some good arguments to be made for a victory by the X-men in this fight. But so far, none of them have been made.

I love debating, but really, the fun kinda goes out of it, when there's no real opposition. The only one that seems to be making anything resembling solid arguments is Treacherous, and it's, with no offense to Treach, relatively obvious that he's not really putting any effort into it.




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