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#141 force_echo

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:26 PM

It is kind of funny that you are explaining this to a history major, like you know better than me. I love being told that everything my doctorate professors have taught me is wrong, as explained by a High School Senior. Please, show me all your dissertations and degrees. I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THEM.

You bring up coalitions. Coalitions are all well and good. It shows pragmatism and cooperation and bipartisanship, 3 very important things to a healthy political culture that actually gets shit done. I'll give you 3 chances to guess 3 things that the American political sphere completely lacks.

Britain also has a different way of electing their executive. In fact, the Brits don't elect their executives at all. They select the Parliament and the majority group selects who they want as their Prime Minister. It helps their pragmatism and effectiveness of the government.

France is in no way leaning towards a Dominant Party system. Yeah, UMP is the dominant conservative party, but they are centrist as shit. They're liberal tradition is so strong that the current President is the first liberal (by French standards) since 1995. Almost 20 years. That's a pretty good tradition, they totally should eliminate the UMP.

Your example with Germany. Something you should learn about with history. Never make general statements. Every chancellor has literally been from either the Social Democrats or Christian Democratic Union? You sure? You ever hear of a guy named *uncreative*? Now, I may or may not have just spent 5 weeks learning about him, his 'myth' (don't worry about that one, that's for history majors), and the things he did. With that knowledge, I'm going to flatly say that no, he was not part of the Social Democrats (he hated those mother *vulgarity*ers) or the Christian Union (he hated the Church too). Coalitions are huge in Germany. The SPD have a long standing coalition with the Green party and the CDU has a long standing coalition with the Liberal party. Want to know what that means? It means the parties are working together. Do the US parties work together? LOLZ. No.

There will always be a conservative and liberal party, you are correct in that so much as there will always be a conservative and liberal ideology. The only thing is is there are centrist ideologies. There are moderates. The current US system gives them no place. People that like Gary Johnson, they have no hope. People that like Ron Paul, no hope. People in France, Britain, Germany, they might not see their Gary Johnsons or their Ron Pauls in office, but they at least have a hope that their voice will be heard and taken into account.

Also, Britain has been doing pretty damn well with an unwritten constitution. Yeah, they have the Magna Carta and shit, but they were smart enough to realize that some documents can be outdated. What a novel idea.

The fact that I don't have a degree has nothing to do with anything. You're pretty much making the same argument Mr. Outstanding made. In fact, there are a lot of similarities between you two...

Wow, you must be really, REALLY stupid. Like, flat out, I have no idea how someone could misunderstand the concept of a coalition between political parties like you just did. I don't know how I can dumb this down much farther, but here goes. First of all, a coalition between political parties happens between like minded parties, liberal parties and conservative parties, a coalition between the Republican party and the Democratic Party is literally the exact opposite of what I was talking about. Second of all, the very idea of a coalition between the Republican and Democratic Party makes no sense. You want one huge, radically divergent party? Third of all, having bipartisanship between two parties has nothing to do with a multi party system in any way shape or form.

What does this have to do with the fact that Britain has essentially a two party system? And no, that would be horrible in our government. If the President was selected by the House or Senate, then whatever party that has a majority in the Legislative Branch, would also have the Executive Branch. Yes, that's a great way to maintain separation of powers and bipartisanship...

Are you stupid, or just ridiculously misinformed? In June, France's Socialist Party won a supermajority in legislative elections capable of amending the French Constitution and enabling the immediate enactment of the promised reforms. They literally have ABSOLUTE control of the government. My point stands, that France has a 2 party system, leaning now towards a Dominant-Party System.

First of all, *uncreative* wasn't a chancellor you retard. Chancellors, along with the current political system, were established in 1949, and since then, every single chancellor has been part of those two parties. You still don't understand the concept of coalitions. The coalitions happen between LIKE-FREAKING-MINDED parties. How can you be so stupid as to compare the pairing between the SDP and the Green Party with a "coalition" between Republicans and Democrats? Damn, either you're school sucks, or you must be failing all of your classes. Using that example, the equivalent example is that there should be a coalition between the Democratic Party and the US Green Party... Oh wait... There is.

And that's a fault of the two party system? No, it's not, there have been, and are, plenty of moderates in both parties in the legislative branch, there have been a number of moderate presidents. If the people vote for uncompromising politicians, uncompromising politicians is what they get. That's why the Tea Party still exists. If there's a conservative well minded candidate running against a crazy far right/left wing, and the crazy guy wins, is it a fault of the 2 party system or the people voting? In case you didn't realize, the US is a democracy, for the most part, the people in office are a reflection of who the majority of people want to be in office.

And the people who wrote the Constitution didn't? Oh, so that's why literally every single part of the Constitution can be amended except two things ,one of those being completely outdated and irrelevant, so actually one thing. Genius.

#142 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:29 PM

Spread the love!

#143 force_echo

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:32 PM

That's the way mankind works...I'm using examples from the 1700s onwards, not counting the thousands of years before that!

Force, I love you.

You are so incredibly stupid. How many democracies were there before 1700? How many democracies were there afterwards. Let's take a simple statistics course, so even someone as retarded as you can figure out where I'm coming from. You usually take a sample of the region with more data points, and use that sample to make a general theory. That's called Deductive reasoning, and is the basic principle behind the Scientific Method. You do know what the Scientific Method is right? That thing you were supposed to learn in 8th grade? No, I guess not. People like you are examples of why the education system in America is failing.

#144 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:34 PM

I relish in it. Ignorance is bliss!

I love you force. Free hugs, here!

#145 silversurfer092

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:43 PM

People like you are examples of why the education system in America is failing.


This may be true, but you are an example of why everyone in the world hates America.

Also, Hitler wasn't a chancellor? You sure? http://en.wikipedia....ki/Adolf_Hitler 2nd line, towards the end. I'm not the best student, not by a long shot. I didn't go to one of the Top 20 High Schools in America like you (Thank god I didn't, because you transferring made you into the detestable person you are now) and I'm not going to one of the best colleges in the nation either. But, with all my terrible lack of education, I do know with 99% certainty (I can't say 100% because I didn't live in Germany in 1930's) that Hitler was made chancellor and then President and then Fuhrer of Germany.

But you know Force, I still find it in my heart to love you. Even though you really do love your high horse, you need love from other humans and I am here to give it to you. I'm truly glad you are a part of this community.

#146 G4hardcore

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:49 PM

What is this? I didn't see this last page until I posted in Surfer's thread.

It's kind of like missing the explosion, but complimenting the red-splatters-shattered-windows look without understanding where it came from.

#147 force_echo

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:09 PM

This may be true, but you are an example of why everyone in the world hates America.

Also, *uncreative* wasn't a chancellor? You sure? http://en.wikipedia....lf_*uncreative* 2nd line, towards the end. I'm not the best student, not by a long shot. I didn't go to one of the Top 20 High Schools in America like you (Thank god I didn't, because you transferring made you into the detestable person you are now) and I'm not going to one of the best colleges in the nation either. But, with all my terrible lack of education, I do know with 99% certainty (I can't say 100% because I didn't live in Germany in 1930's) that *uncreative* was made chancellor and then President and then Fuhrer of Germany.

He had a position named Chancellor. There a numerous amount of dictators named Presidents too. The modern Chancellor of Germany originated in 1948, even though the name is the same. *uncreative*'s title had full legislative power. In contrast, the modern Chancellor is not even in the legislative branch, but a title which exercises executive power.

#148 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:17 AM

On a related note, I'd read a comment the other day from a woman who said she couldn't belive Obama won the Oval Office seat again, and that we shouldn't have people from other countries as our president, here in the states. I almost choked.

So he has Kenyan roots. So? Technically, the only people that are even truly from this country are the Native Americans. Everyone else just had guns.

It's not that he had Kenyan roots, it's that people believe he wasn't born in this country. He didn't handle the situation well IMO. He took forever to release his birth certificate, and when Donald Trump was pressuring him to do it, first he released a certificate of live birth, which is not the same as a birth certificate. Than they claimed that the building in Hawaii that held his original documents was destroyed. So they released one that wasn't the original. It's that stuff why people think he isn't from the the USA.

I don't care where the president is from, as long as he knows what he is doing, and has the citizens best interest at heart.

#149 deojusto

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 02:26 PM

Please observe Godwin's Law. If you want to discuss the merits and drawbacks of a true multi-party system in comparison to a two party system, there are a lot of choices to pick from (Most of Europe, Canada?, Mexico, India, some South American nations). Just try to steer the topic away from *uncreative*.

However in general you cannot generalize, at least when trying to describe multi-party democracies.

Sometimes what you get is a mix of coalitions from parties that work together for the most part and are willing to negotiate. England might be the example I'd pick for that. Yes the major parties yell and scream at each other, but despite that the government still continues to function.

Sometimes you end up with one big party and a littany of small ones. It's still 100% democratic, but nearly everybody votes for one party for one reason or another. South Africa would be a good eample of this, but it is slowly beginning to disseminate power a little more evenly.

However there's also the Greece possibility. Lots of fringe parties, everyone shouting and rioting, and nothing getting done.

Anecdotally picking a country and saying 'getting rid of the two party system would be like this' is pointless, unless you also have an argument for why that country is more similar to the US then other contrary examples.

However no democratic nation on Earth (to my knowledge) doesn't have political parties. So saying 'let's get rid of political parties all together' is a lot like saying lets get rid of banana peels. They taste bitter and they make us fall down a lot, sure. Well you can't get rid of them, they're apart of the fruit.

My prediction is that if we moved to direct election of the president and a proportional style of representation the US would end up with at most four major parties, but probably just three. Democrats and Republicans and probably Libertarians as the third largest. The dems and republicans would still be the shot callers because they have more organization, money, and history with the voters. They and would still more or less run the show, even if the green party and libertarians, and social conservatives formed their own parties that got a few seats each. That party infrastructure would give them enough of an advantage that the system would be more or less unchanged.
-----

On a side note, just in case it wasn't clear, the President actually has more authority than Donald Trump. Shocking, I know, but if Trump demands he do something, Obama is not legally required to do it. The birther accusation problems had nothing to do with how he handled it. He gave them multiple forms of his birth certificate, and even on election night Trump was asking for Obama's college records.

You eventually have to ignore stupid people because convincing them has nothing to do with facts. There was no way he would have been able to appease those people, and no way he could have handled the situation any better.

#150 G4hardcore

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 02:58 PM

It's not that he had Kenyan roots, it's that people believe he wasn't born in this country. He didn't handle the situation well IMO. He took forever to release his birth certificate, and when Donald Trump was pressuring him to do it, first he released a certificate of live birth, which is not the same as a birth certificate. Than they claimed that the building in Hawaii that held his original documents was destroyed. So they released one that wasn't the original. It's that stuff why people think he isn't from the the USA.

I don't care where the president is from, as long as he knows what he is doing, and has the citizens best interest at heart.


For the woman I'm referring to, and in her words, she was upset that someone of Kenyan descent was elected president of the United States. Kind of ironic, if you ask me. But yes, I see your point; Obama could've had Mexican or Indian roots, and people like her would still have a problem with him because he wasn't "American".

I was at Novemberfest last weekend, and some guy hollered "F*ck Obama". There are probably going to be people like that for a long time, I wager. But the funny thing about that is (and I told my friends this) no matter where you come from, or what color your skin is, Obama is trying to help the people. It's not like he's going to be a dick and only give tax cuts to African Americans and Blacks, then raise them on Mormons and Republicans. Although Romney's already got a tax raise in his future, if Obama ges his foot in the door with his proposal.

#151 force_echo

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:38 PM

The Libertarian Party is in no way possible a niche for themselves. They're just socially conscious Republicans, at their core, they have a Republican ideology. Reform will happen to the Republican Party faster than a Libertarian Party can get kicked off. People are tired of dumbass rednecks who say that the female body has natural ways to shut down *insensitivity*, and have it affect the entire party. It all depends on the destruction of the Tea Party.

#152 G4hardcore

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:12 PM

The sad thing is that the main motivation for a reform by the Republican party is survival, and not progressive thought. Though I'm generalizing here; I'm sure there are many Republicans who are genuine.




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