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Match 12800 Lex Luthor vs. Ozymandias (Watchmen)


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#1 deojusto

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:53 AM

“This energy project will be bigger then anything the world has ever seen, Mr. Luthor, so you’ll have to understand if I am careful as to how it proceeds.”

“But of course Mr. Veidt. I understand the importance of free energy more than anyone. And that is why LexCorp wishes to make it a joint venture, so that we can both add our strengths and bring this needed resource to the people even quicker.”

The men sit across from one another. Grey rain streaks across the window behind them. Veidt’s tower stands as the highest structure on the skyline, the city of New York lies beneath them. Veidt remains characteristically calm.

“And Lex-Corp’s unique specialties in certain technologies may be beneficial, but your usage of those technologies in the past has been, suspect.”

Luthor grins coolly.

“My company provides the United States military with the defense technology it needs to keep the peace.”

“And if the Soviet Union asks for the same technology,”

“Mr. Veidt, I certainly hope you’re not accusing me of being a communist. That’s dangerous talk these days, as you well know.”

“Communism, no. Merely opportunism… Though your plans go far deeper then simple weapons dealings. You don’t want to sell the power, you want to hold it… Perhaps we should stop pretending that this is merely an ordinary business meeting.”

Luthor nods.

“I’m prepared to drop the act if you are.”

Both men stand. They evaluate each other.

“Mr. Luthor, do you know of Alexander the Great?”

“Yes, though I resent his arrogance.”

“Arrogance?”

“Its in the name. That he was the greatest man named Alexander who would ever be. Arrogant. Arrogant and incorrect.”

Veidt approaches the window. He looks at his rain-specked reflection.

“… Alexander the Great conquered the known world by age 30, and was revered as a God. For most of my life he was the only man I could relate to… you and I are like him. I can see him in you as well Mr. Luthor. But you and I are not Gods. Gods do not exist. There is no deity who could step from the heavens to stop us from committing horrors on mankind. No all-powerful being who can fly in and reverse the damage we do. There is nothing above us; it’s just you and me. I wish to save the world from destruction, and you are determined to conquer it like your namesake."

"Save it? Is that what your little energy weapon under the ice is for?"

Veidt turns towards Luthor.

"It's to save it from itself. A small price to pay for survival. I can only imagine what the world would suffer if you got your hands on it. That is why I called you here, one last chance for you to halt your plans, one last chance for us to spare the world and our fellow men.”

Luthor smiles and approaches the window.

“Well you are right on some level, Adrian. The two of us are, special, to one degree or another. We are so high above them,” Luthor gestures to the streets below, “that I suppose if either one of us wanted to rule, it would be up to the other to stop him… Though I’m afraid you’re wrong on the other statement. It’s not that there aren’t Gods. There just aren’t any yet.”

He turns and walks away from Veidt.

“Your concern for them is touching. But you see, I cannot harm my fellow men, because I have no fellow men. They do not exist. Those people down there are no closer to me then the termites, and I see no reason to treat them as anything else. You say you see us as equals, that you and I can finally balance the world. But all I see is another termite. There is no ancient relation, no parallel. I am Lex Luthor, and nothing compares to that.”

“You are a megalomaniac, a tyrant, but you are no God.”

“Well… not yet.”

#2 Callisto

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:53 AM

Learn More About
Lex Luthor
Read more about Lex Luthor at Wikipedia
Official Site: DC Comics Links: Wikipedia The Captain's Unoffical JLA DC Comics Profile

Ozymandias (Watchmen)
Read more about Ozymandias (Watchmen) at Wikipedia
Official Site: DC Comics Links: Wikipedia Annotated Watchmen Toonopedia



#3 deojusto

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 03:01 AM

There is no Superman, no Justice League, no Watchmen, no Doctor Manhattan. This is set in the Watchmen Universe and time-period. Both Luthor and Ozy grew up in this world and can be said to have equal home field advantages.

They’re both plotters and masterminds, and without a doubt the two smartest human beings on the planet, though the position of first place is up for contention. Luthor is still his Luthory self, and without Superman to stop him, its up to Ozy as humanity’s last hope. The set-up mentions Ozy's doomsday weapon, but aside from that this isn't a measure of a single plot device or particular situation that they're placed in. The entire world's a chessboard and the game goes until Lex or Ozy find themselves in checkmate.

What say ye?

#4 Xenerack5

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 05:05 AM

Couldn't Ozy just snap his neck right there? If he cant for fear of drawing unwanted attention then he still wins in the end. His success rate speaks for itself.

#5 bigballerju

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:29 AM

Excellent setup and this would be a nice battle between these two geniuses . With no Superman as his obession Lex Luthor has proven to be extremely dangerous and at his best actually. However he has met his perfect equal. Ozy will do what it takes to stop Luthor and he is just as smart. I think Ozy can win because he can also use Luthor's ego and overconfidence as well to his advantage.

#6 deojusto

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:31 AM

Couldn't Ozy just snap his neck right there? If he cant for fear of drawing unwanted attention then he still wins in the end. His success rate speaks for itself.


I think you answered your own question; breaking his neck would place a dead body right in the middle of his building and everyone would pretty much know he did it. It wouldn't be a very smart move.

.

#7 sirmethos

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:43 PM

Great setup. It has that 'spark' that the last one was missing :) An "A" from me.

As for the match itself, Lex Luthor pretty much has it.


Both of them are stated as being "the most intelligent person/human on the planet", so we have to look at their achievements and competition instead.

But considering that Luthor has had so much more 'screen time' to get achievements, it's pretty much natural that he scores the points on that one. But that's pretty much a useless comparison as well, since that could be purely because Luthor has had so much more 'screen time'.

So let's look at their competition.

Luthor's competition is a wide variety of highly intelligent people. Batman, Atom, Mr. Terrific, T. O. Morrow, etc. etc.

While Veidt's competition is, far less impressive. Basically a demi-god, who is focused on the existential crisis of his own disappearing humanity. And a population of people whose intelligence seems to go from "10% dumber than desert sand", to "relatively smart".


Bottom line: Veidt has never really tested his mental prowess against a mind of Luthor's caliber. While Veidt seems to be the kind of person that Luthor regularly outsmarts, one way or the other.


Veidt may very well have the potential to be on Luthor's mental level, but he has never really had much of a challenge, he has never had anything to push him to his full potential. While Luthor has mental challenges all around him, and beats them on a daily basis.

#8 bigballerju

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 04:53 PM

Methos I'm surprised. I thought you would go with Ozy. I actually think Luthor would push Ozy mentally and show he is just as smart. Ozy didn't need to be mentally challenged before because he is always looking to improve himself and reach new limits. Also Ozy destroying New York the way he did pretty much proves Ozy was on Lex's level even though that even didn't happen here. Luthor's ego and overconfidence he tends to have would actually cost him against someone like Ozy.

#9 skadoosh

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 05:05 PM

I think Veit effectively outsmarting Doctor Manhattan counts as outsmarting someone of his own, or above his own, intellectual level.

Overall, it could go to either, with time, but if Ozymandias doesn't want to mess around with a battle of mind he could assinate Luthor himself, like he did the Comedian, and whoever else. If it did come to close combat, especially a surprise attack from Ozymandias, then Luthor would lose. If not, and the battle remained a global war of minds, then it could take years for either wo beat the other, and i'm not sure who would do so first.

#10 deojusto

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 10:04 PM

This is how attempted assassinations on Luthor go


Chances are, he knows you're coming for him and is waiting. Maybe he has Mercy ready to kick your ass. Or maybe he just prepares some cool ass devices.



Note that in both these fights Lex takes on people with extensive combat training and or superhuman abilities. Ozy's plan to assassinate people involves breaking in their doors and throwing them out windows. Luthor makes you think you can win before you realize you've been playing his game the whole time.

#11 sirmethos

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 06:00 AM

Deojusto is pretty much making my point here.

#12 Xenerack5

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 11:06 AM

Luther suffers from the medical condition known as happyending idas which displays the folowing symptoms:
Inibility to actually beat the hero,
Failing despite clearly being smarter than his opponent
Often skrewing up his own plans by being too cockey,
Only being able to succeed against less popular villains and more obscure heroes,
Continuing to be evil or get more evil despite the promise of a redemption storyline because the plot needs a bad guy and the producers want the audience to know who to root for
Being allowed to continue being evil because the hero is too selfish to kill him.

Ozy outsmarted a god and the entire world to bring about world peace like I said success rate speaks for itself.

#13 skadoosh

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 04:57 PM

This is how attempted assassinations on Luthor go

Chances are, he knows you're coming for him and is waiting. Maybe he has Mercy ready to kick your ass. Or maybe he just prepares some cool ass devices.

Note that in both these fights Lex takes on people with extensive combat training and or superhuman abilities. Ozy's plan to assassinate people involves breaking in their doors and throwing them out windows. Luthor makes you think you can win before you realize you've been playing his game the whole time.


Everything in bold goes for Ozymandias, too. And in that first vid Luthor seems to have superpowers, something Ozymandias never did. In a fight, or assassination-attempt-turned-fight, Ozymandias would probably have the advantage as it's unlikely Luthor will have given himself powers in this scenario.

Ozy outsmarted a god and the entire world to bring about world peace


Not eloquent, but correct.

#14 bigballerju

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 07:11 PM

I could show clips too of Ozy being prepared for the rest of the Watchmen when they go to him in his arctic base. Hell they thought they could stop him from destroying New York and he set off his device to destroy New York before they even reached his base if I remember correctly or something like that. Ozy knew Comedian was starting to put the pieces together and killed him before he became a problem. I mean Ozy is always steps ahead of you like Luthor.

#15 deojusto

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 07:31 PM

Luthor didn't get superpowers by chance. He gave himself the powers. I say its fair game since there is nothing stopping him from doing it again

#16 sirmethos

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 07:35 PM

Which brings us back to what I was saying.

Looking at the statements about them(most intelligent person on the planet), their methods(always a step ahead, ruthless, etc.), and a ton of other things, they are too similar, so we can't really use those as comparisons, in order to find out who wins.

We have to look at their competition.

The only real competition that Veidt has had, was Dr. Manhattan. And that wasn't even competition, he just distracted him to make sure that Manhattan didn't notice what he(veidt) was doing, by exploiting a weakness.

On the other hand we have Luthor, who goes up against people like Batman, Atom, Mr. Terrific, etc. Hell, he even outmaneuvered Brainiac at one point.

Veidt made peace on the planet by giving them a common enemy. A plan that only worked because he was able to convince Dr. Manhattan that it was a good plan. That is his one, and only, real accomplishment.

Luthor's list of accomplishments would take me hours to write down.

Veidt is the most intelligent man on the planet. A planet that has no other remarkable brains.

Luthor is the most intelligent human on the planet. A planet that has so many huge geniuses that it's bordering on the ridiculous.


Bottom line: Veidt has absolutely nothing to his name, that shows him as being Luthor's intellectual equal. Not even close.

#17 kainboa

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:15 AM

Luthor wins due to the previously mentioned reasons.

Setup is good, I'm giving this an A

#18 skadoosh

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 07:25 PM

I could show clips too of Ozy being prepared for the rest of the Watchmen when they go to him in his arctic base. Hell they thought they could stop him from destroying New York and he set off his device to destroy New York before they even reached his base if I remember correctly or something like that. Ozy knew Comedian was starting to put the pieces together and killed him before he became a problem. I mean Ozy is always steps ahead of you like Luthor.


Yeah, Ozymandias is always several moves ahead of you, as Luthor is. He does things in advance. Thirty-five minutes in advance.

Luthor didn't get superpowers by chance. He gave himself the powers. I say its fair game since there is nothing stopping him from doing it again


No doubt, but that shows me he has access to, and time to get, superpowers, whereas Ozymandias beat everybody he did in a completely human form.

Luthor's list of accomplishments would take me hours to write down.

Veidt is the most intelligent man on the planet. A planet that has no other remarkable brains.


Of course it would take longer to write down Luthor's achievements than it would those of Ozymandias, but that's not because Ozymandias is any less intelligent than Luthor, it's because he's only been in one graphic novel, whereas Luthor has been in thousands of comic books. If Ozymandias was put in many, or possibly any, of the situations Luthor has been in he could be just as successful as Luthor was, as he is just as smart, has just as many resources and is a far more skilled fighter than, Luthor.

#19 sirmethos

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:01 PM

If Ozymandias was put in many, or possibly any, of the situations Luthor has been in he could be just as successful as Luthor was, as he is just as smart, has just as many resources and is a far more skilled fighter than, Luthor.


See, that's exactly my point. There is absolutely nothing, to back up that/those statements.



As I already pointed out, he only has one real achievement to his name. And he has never proven his intelligence by outsmarting someone of a comparable level of intelligence.

And as you pointed out yourself, he has only been in one graphic novel. There hasn't been time for him to do anything, to show whether he might actually be on Luthor's level. But nothing he has shown, puts him on Luthor's level.


The same goes for the amount of resources he has available. Veidt runs the most successful business in the world. But as far as we have seen, his business has no real competition. And with no real competition, being the most successful, isn't particularly impressive.

Where Luthor, despite several other major businesses(Wayne and Queen, among others), and despite his stocks dropping severely, every time he has gone to jail, still runs one of(if not the) most successful businesses in the world.


Veidt has access to some pretty impressive technology as well. But Veidt is limited to what earth has been able to develop. Where Luthor has tech that is, not just the cutting edge of what the earth has developed, but also tech from alien civilizations, with technology far beyond earth's.


Bottom Line: There is absolutely nothing, to indicate that Veidt is on Luthor's level.

#20 skadoosh

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:16 PM

Oh, well, a lot of that simply wasn't focused on in the graphic novel, so we can't be sure of it, but i see what you mean. However, outsmarting Doctor Manhattan is a significant feat, as is creating the fake alien monster and tricking the world in to peace. Ozymandias may have limited feats but those feats are definitely comparable to some of the plans Luthor has concocted. Also, Luthor tends to lose, while Ozymandias has, technically, a one-hundred-percent sucess rate.

A lot of the problems with comparing these two chracters are due to the lack of one of them, Ozymandias, being in mainstream comics, or, at least, more comics.




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