Posted 04 September 2012 - 03:24 PM
going by game mechanics alone he can cast regen, haste, and slow on Ryu, he can cast powerful elemental magic, and non elemental attacks, such as Flare or Dark Flare, he has mind control, and can be intangible as the lifestream, since that is all he in in FF7.
I do know all about the games and not just read some Wiki that you are saying is a valid source. last I checked that would be first canon right?
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and are arguing only to argue with me since you think I know nothing based ont he fact that I talk about DBZ a lot.
again play the games and then speak. Im not dissing you by the way while you are trying to diss me, so be it.
Posted 04 September 2012 - 05:44 PM
Beyond that - Sephiroth didn't actually use magic as much in Advent Children (A better source of feats as it's defined) but we do know he uses more than Cloud does and has proficiency as seen in The Remnants of Sephiroth. Aside from that - his magic isn't his own but comes from Materia - it isn't part of his powers and abilities - though if we have the OP list them if necessary? So actually, Materia itself is game mechanics, and we see Sephiroth in Advent Children forgoing the use of materia. In fact... he has his own means of powers that he uses - I don't recall a lot of magic in Crisis Core and Advent Children as well as FF7 (Except for Meteor from the Black Materia (He obviously doesn't have it), and already covered Super Nova. Also includes his own teleportation and the energy blade attack as his own powers).
Are you seriously saying that the people who've played the games first hand and listed what they witnessed in the games down as written sources isn't exactly a viable source? It's coming from the first canon - the games - if you would please, go through the wikia and provide evidence that what was stated is false.
Not that I'd take your word for granted as per your history...
Actually - I'm not arguing with you for the sole sake of arguing with you, I'm arguing with your because your opinion is wrong, ill informed. Again, Reading Comprehension. I said there's a pattern, and DBZ is one of them. Please stop taking my statements out of context to better suit your argument.
If your only defense in the argument is that you've played the game, which apparently automatically qualifies you as the #1 say on how it goes - that doesn't work. Believe it or not, but Research counts just as well - I will even consult those that have played it (Those that aren't clearly biased and ill informed) on their opinions.
You are dissing me as well, indirectly so, so please don't pull that crap.
Posted 04 September 2012 - 05:52 PM
Throughout nearly every debate I've seen you in, you've refused to listen to fact, reason, or any sort of logic. I'm fairly sure the only time you admit you were incorrect is when you find it favorable to whichever alternative.
I don't see any "dissing" from Jaeger-- He's calling it as it is, you need to get your facts straight, you just won't admit it because he's younger.
PS: Learn to English.
Posted 04 September 2012 - 06:05 PM
Oh and to Jaeger, they do use magic in that movie, watch it please and you will see that they use a full cure for one, and what is Ninpo? a scroll that they use to cast spells so if Materia is not valid neither is Ninpo as it is not their own. I read what you write, but only address cerain points as it is pointless to nickpick everything. Are you going by the movie alone? if so why since you are using Ryu's game and movie parts from the games, use all of Sephiroth's "skills"
If you must I will be blunt
1. Sephiroth has a higher showing
2. Sephiroth has Haste Magic and is usually immune to status effects which Time Stop is one
3 Sephiroth fused with the life stream as in the movie you seem to only know about Sephiroth is dead and is reformed from the lifestream.
4. The video games are first canon if we are to use a game right? if we use game mechanics then why not Sephiroths in game skills?
5. If we go by game mechanics Sephiroth can phase through walls and floors as seen in Costa Del Sol's ship part.
6. If we go by both's game mechanics, Ryu fights regular tanks and normal ninjas (albeit they aren't just like our ninjas) but they shoot regular guns most of the time. (I played all Ninja Gaiden's up to the most recent which sucks) Sephiroth doesnt lose to anyone except Cloud and he is the one to do it, like Ryu is for his enemies.
7. I'm sure I have more, but lets start with these and bottom line let me ask you something, have you seen Ryu get killed in the games? I have and I have seen him get killed by regular people(if you let him of course) so he does bleed and can be cut by regular weapons. If you watch my video I posted Genesis shoots fire shots at him (I'm sure thats magic) and Sephiroth is covered in it and is not hurt at all. Thats not a showing? play the new games and you will see that if anything Sephiroth has more skills and better showings overall and while Ryu is great (again I love this guy and his games) he is no Sephiroth.
Posted 04 September 2012 - 07:05 PM
Actually... you've just shown you don't know what Ninpo is. It's not a scroll... They learn from a scroll but it's an art - a form of technique that utilizes the ninja's own spiritual energy. Their Ki so to speak. So no, they don't need the scroll to use Ninpo - if they've learned it, they can utilize it at any time without needing the scroll. a Minor and distinct difference between Ninpo and FF7's Magic, where FF7 is reliant on the necessary possession of Materia itself in order to have access to magic.
Edit: After further research, it appears to be that Sephiroth in Advent Children, after having reformed from the Life Stream via possessing one of his Remnants, no longer needs Materia. And that he's more powerful than he was in FF7 - huh, this was stated by the producers for Advent Children movie. Good thing Research is key... and so if I'm using the movie version, that means he's more powerful in this instance than prior... and he was still defeated by Cloud. Though they implied his potential wasn't explored much, we didn't see much, so we have nothing to go on with other than the fact he was defeated by Cloud, and (obviously), retains all his prior abilities. And he didn't even use that much magic despite his reincarnation and power up in Advent Children - he didn't use much magic prior in FF7 or Crisis Core, other than his trade mark energy attacks, teleportation, Supernova, etc. Let me explain my reasoning: I also take into account the personality of the characters in question and in how they fight, their habits, whatnot.
It's why I say that since Cloud doesn't use magic so much and prefers his big effing sword to beat the crap out of others, that Ryu would have a chance against him, a definite chance of winning, more so than Cloud against him. Now, I did say Sephiroth uses more magic than Cloud - I merely mean the likes of his own abilities, Supernova (As seen in Dissidia and Crisis Core), and whatnot.
Actually there's been many characters that are of great skill to go up against Sephiroth and do battle with him competently - it seems to imply he holds back - he does have a somewhat arrogant, narcissistic personality, so that may very well be it - though likely only Cloud is able to match him mostly.
...He's not immune to Status Effects logically - that's mainly game mechanics mostly, you do realize that? Unless he was packing a Ribbon... he was immune due to the boss status as to give the players a difficult time.
Yes, I know.
In game skills such as the Materia? No, not exactly. You're ignoring the character personality - that's what defines the usage of said skills and abilities. I mentioned this above.
Ryu fights Mooks, yes (the tanks and ninjas you mentioned.). That's not all he fights though... Ryu fights God Like Entities and whatnot and actually defeats them using his own abilities. This is in conjunction with his own physical power and ability and the True Dragon Sword. There's also the Fiends and whatnot which easily is way past street level entities... he is quite capable of defeating Sephiroth. He's been seen to literally block a barrage of bullets from full automatic weapons while surrounded from all sides. At once. He has moved so fast he's left after images of himself (a la Son Goku from Dragon Ball).
All I've seen of Sephiroth's speed is in his sword fights - there's not really any definitive speed feats in FF7 itself but there are a few in Crisis Core and they're not as impressive as Ryu's - you can still track him as he fights with the likes of Angeal, Genesis, and Zack. Then there's the fight scene between him and Cloud - you can still track him. Only time I've seen him disappear from view and reappear elsewhere suddenly as if he moved that fast was when he teleported. And if you're implying Haste was used in these instances... then that's worse.
Technically if you go by the story in the game... Ryu doesn't get damaged often by the mooks - there's been instances where he's been gravely wounded by major characters, like Doku, a Greater Fiend (iirc he was caught off guard there) but otherwise, he typically survives without a scratch from the likes of the mooks - so if anything, it requires quite powerful and capable entities to injure Ryu let alone kill him, such as the mentioned Fiends or God Like Entities he's fought. If we're going by the fact he can die in the game to attribute to being cut and bleeding, then I could attribute to the fact that it takes a lot to bring him down regardless as that he has great durability and stamina, easily beyond a human being...
Yes, Genesis isn't as powerful as Sephiroth, that was the whole point of the showing was to prove that Genesis and Angeal, even combined, were not a match for Sephiroth. Plus that took place in a simulation room - so it was a sparring that got serious - which kinda detracts from it a bit but still proves Sephiroth's superiority.
And I said Ryu could defeat Angeal or Genesis, probably so better than Cloud or Sephiroth...
I said I have played the new games, namely Crisis Core (As that has Sephiroth). I've also played Dirge of Cerberus, which centers on Vincent Valentine.
Posted 04 September 2012 - 09:39 PM
You are using game mechanics with Ryu and not width Sephiroth. Cloud uses materia but it's not a summon it's an active power like equipping it and not something he has to take out and use. It's life stream and knowledge from the ancients.
Ryu's bosses are not all that powerful and possibly only a threat to his world. Like Frieza being weak compared to superman but at one point being the most powerful in DBZ. Ninpo is a scroll as he needs to use it to do his magic. He doesn't just use it. You make good points but in the hologram Angeal tells Genesis that he will destroy us all and it's stated that Sephiroth was on par with Genesis as both are 1st class but Sephiroth gaining more knowledge of the life's life stream.
They use the sword because the same reason Ryu uses his sword. It's his most trusted weapon. Same reason Link uses the master sword instead of the Biggorn sword( it's required to seal evil)
If you watch the movie, even Vincent can beat Ryu up based on powers alone. Like i. e. Nightcrawler being faster than death stroke means nothing since he can react faster. Same thing different people. By the way I'm checking YouTube for game footage check out FF dissidia and it shows some good fights.
Posted 04 September 2012 - 10:06 PM
Thing is - you have to apply concepts to it - We're using Time Stomp, which apparently is a game mechanic, because it's an ability of Ryu's. Sephiroth being immune to status effects is a game mechanic, one applied because it's designed to make him a more challenging opponent, simply because he's a boss. And Cloud doesn't use materia often - this is evident in Advent Children (Yuffie was going to give him a massive box of Materia in order to prepare for his fight with Sephiroth. He never took any.) He prefers his sword and his own power.
You're downplaying Ryu and his enemies then. A few of them have been slated to be of the sort of "Not quite, quite good for the world at large if they get away with it". They're a massive threat. And you know what else? Some of them requires The True Dragon Sword to kill them - that in of itself is a massively powerful weapon, once conjoined with the Dragon Eye, upsets the balance of the Universe... it shows you how powerful Ryu's enemies are, least the major villains. I recall a Villain named Ishtaros. She couldn't beat Ryu until she got some power up from Dragonstones and whatnot - this enabled her to utterly thrash Ryu. Then he went and got the Dragon Eye for his sword, and lo behold... she was defeated. While the sword is powerful, it still requires Ryu's physical capability to defeat his foes - it just gives him the capability of killing them (as to dissuade any illusions of the sword doing all the work.)
No... Ninpo is not a scroll he has to pull out and use - granted this is game mechanics and you might throw this out but whenever we see him perform a Ninpo in game, he doesn't pull out a scroll, he performs a technique, utilizing his ki, to instigate the Ninpo and activate it, to utilize it. It's a scroll they learned from, yes, but they don't need to have it to perform a Ninpo attack. It's a learned technique.
Ah yeah, that was because Genesis found the Goddess I believe (Dirge of Cerberus hints at this in it's ending). At the time though, he was inferior to Sephiroth. Even before Sephiroth gained access to the Life Stream. Don't believe me? I refer you to the Angeal & Genesis vs. Sephiroth fight, you linked the video. Angeal was a First Class Soldier - doesn't mean he was as good as Sephiroth now, does it?
Ryu uses the sword because it's the most effective weapon - he can use other weapons if he wants I suppose.
No, I watched the movie and Vincent doesn't show anything that would enable him to defeat Ryu, namely sheer speed and reflexes. That plus the Dragon Sword would definitely kill him.
Though of course, if this was Chaos Form Vincent from Dirge of Cerberus, then yeah, Ryu would be fucked.
Posted 04 September 2012 - 10:15 PM
Posted 05 September 2012 - 01:27 PM
Oh and by your words Ryu is faster than Sephiroth just because he has after images as he moves, but so does lets say Krillin, does that mean Krillin is faster than someone like Goku or even Tien? no.
oh and about Ninpo, most of it is game mechanics as Materia is and even so not one of them seem more powerful than magic used by Materia users. (i.e. fireball)
Posted 05 September 2012 - 01:56 PM
Posted 05 September 2012 - 04:48 PM
Posted 05 September 2012 - 05:17 PM
Posted 05 September 2012 - 05:30 PM
The problem with games is that it can show anything i.e. Megaman 5 he holds up the castle with no problem, but then he gets killed instantly by spikes. or Yoshi not needing to breathe underwater (the green one not blue)
Thats all I meant.
Posted 05 September 2012 - 05:31 PM
Posted 05 September 2012 - 05:38 PM
The concept at hand here is that they can do whatever they want to; the fact is they didn't make him look or sound tired. Therefore, he wasn't.
Posted 05 September 2012 - 06:23 PM
Posted 05 September 2012 - 06:25 PM
Posted 05 September 2012 - 06:37 PM
That is what we do and why we vote, remember I am just one vote, if this was real, I think this would be a great fight either way, I just think Sephiroth would destroy Ryu, while you guys say the latter.
Until we meet again, unless you guys have more and I will be happy to respond.
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