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Match 12458 Juggernaut vs. Doctor Manhattan


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#41 Guest_Hastur00_*

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 05:17 PM

I thought you were being sarcastic.

No. When I saw Adamantium Walls, I just automatically assumed Cage Match, because that's what that usually amounts to. Just slipped my mind to consider the nature of the combatants in that regard.

Anyway. My thoughts. At very best (for Cain) it's a draw, since unless Cyttorak intervenes directly, he has no way of putting down Manhattan for more than a minute or two.

I think Juggs is safe from transmutation, however. His invulnerability is all but absolute (depending on incarnation, of course), but more importantly, it's magical in nature. Hulk, for example, is almost impossible to hurt because his skin and tissues are staggeringly damage resistant. There's both a rationalization for how it works, and consequently a means to bypass it. Cain, OTOH, is invulnerable because CYTTORAK SAYS SO. It's magic. So it works by magic. And considering that he's completely invulnerable, to me it follows that he can't be transformed.

So personally don't think Juggs would be vulnerable to transmutation, but considering the vague nature of both magic and invulnerability versus tissue transformation, I can't really fault anyone who disagrees.

#42 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 05:20 PM

Eh, most of his invulnerability actually comes from his forcefield.

Thor's been known to magically rip the shield from Juggernaut using his hammer as a conduit and proceed to literally beat his face in physically with his bare hands.

The other instances where he still goes on... like being a skeleton, I think that's the other tid bit, heh.

#43 Guest_Hastur00_*

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 05:33 PM

Eh, most of his invulnerability actually comes from his forcefield.

Heh. Then I suppose the question is whether Manhattan's influence can penetrate his shield.

#44 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 05:35 PM

Well it's a magical force field...

And Manhattan's like quantum mechanics to a hardcore degree and whatnot - it might conflict or might not work or might work. We don't really know...

#45 skadoosh

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 06:03 PM

Science vs magic... Tough call.

#46 FTANG Commando

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 06:03 PM

It's Comics, FTANG. They violate logic itself.


Lol yea I know, that's why I ended up just conceding to the fact that it happened, and there doesn't need to be an explanation.

Also, isn't Dr. M practically a deity as well? Like wasn't he planning on going to create life somewhere else besides Earth?
Does Juggernaut need air?

#47 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 06:08 PM

No - I think he's just an entity who can exist across time simultaneously, and has the capability of observing present, past, and future plus matter manipulation.

Which could easily make him be mistaken as being a deity I suppose.

And Juggernaut doesn't need air.

#48 FTANG Commando

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 06:18 PM

Awesome. Thanks for answering. Then, I suppose it all just depends on what defines a victory and how much Cytorrak helps right? That's pretty much what everyone's been saying anyway haha

#49 G4hardcore

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 06:16 AM

Well it's a magical force field...

And Manhattan's like quantum mechanics to a hardcore degree and whatnot - it might conflict or might not work or might work. We don't really know...

Manhattan is exactly like quantum mechanics personified, though I would switch the word "hardcore" for macroscopic, given the massively unpredictable nature of the science. However, at the end of the day, Doctor Manhattan is still a being of science. As such, he has constraints and limitations, even if it seems as if he is omnipotent.

From what I've observed, magic will always have an edge over pure physical science, no matter how flexible that science is. That's how I like to see it: Manhattan can twist, bend, and push the laws of reality all day long, but it's magic that has the innate ability to ignore the rules altogether.

#50 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 07:44 AM

TOMATO!

And yeah, that much is true in of itself but I typically err on the lines of uncertainty myself when it comes to comparing fluctuating aspects of the magical spectrum i.e. the likes of Cain's empowerment via Cyttorak to a certain constant in Dr. Manhattan - It falls into the category of where it could potentially go both ways.

Personally I think if it's Eighth Day Juggernaut - he'd take it but if else, it's most likely Manhattan, simply because as Marvelman put it, Cain doesn't have quite the plethora of capabilities that his opposition has.

#51 baneblade

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 07:48 AM

First most, there is no stated feat where Juggernaut was 'replaced' into an instant of advantage by Cyttorak. Ex: World War Hulk, Ex: Spiderman. It would seem that Cyttorak at the time was busy. If we simply take character history into account, then certainly Juggernaut will die, even if momentarily, and maybe long enough for Manhattan to leave, and Juggs to get resurrected another place at another time. Lets say for the benefit of doubt, that Cyttorak does indeed 'instantly effect' Juggs resurrection/material being replacement, then we go into the 'marginal' advantage factor. Juggs at the core, somewhere down there can be 'bothered' mentally if not physically, he can have cravings, can have 'feelings'. Manhattan is beyond any of those. All he has to do is, after effecting Juggs demise twice, or thrice, figure out that something is helping him reform, start a loop, and then watch endlessly as Juggs gets moshed, then resurrected. Hence, if the factor is who beats whom, then even marginally Manhattan wins.

Hence, if the factor would have been strictly about who leaves the room, then
1) Assuming Cyttorak is all that 'involved', it is a draw
2) Realistically taking comic history and seeing delays in Cyttorak's involvement, (other than powering Juggs), then Manhattan leaves the room and wins.

If the factor is who simply wins:
1) Taking comic history in queue, Manhattan takes it in a blink
2) Giving a huge benefit of doubt to Juggs and Cyttorak's relationship, Manhattan still wins by margin and relative comparative factors.

More times than not thus, Manhattan wins.

#52 G4hardcore

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 08:46 AM

Doctor Manhattan is beyond feelings? Moore himself stated he wanted to avoid creating an emotionless character. If need be, I can give more than one example of events in the Watchmen series that contradict your statement. In fact, the plot of the story was dependent on Jon's ability to 'feel'.

#53 baneblade

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 09:09 AM

Doctor Manhattan is beyond feelings? Moore himself stated he wanted to avoid creating an emotionless character. If need be, I can give more than one example of events in the Watchmen series that contradicts your statement.


Perhaps I should have stated a bit more accurately, or in detail Apologies there. 'Without feeling' I did not see as 'without emotion'.
What you have done bro, is open the dreaded philisophical can, and which we know, is pretty much an endless well.

Manhattan's emotion, and 'longing' to remain 'somewhat' in touch with his human side made him do some of the things he did, but other things that he did directly countered those emotions, making the need for precision, and following a secular tone, depending entirely on deduction, greater than emotion or longing. Ex: He let things happen that anyone else in his place would not, given that power. The emotion he felt at most was guilt, whereby he felt directly responsible for the condition of his ex, but in that also, if you check detailed commentary which none of us will be able to anymore I guess), much of that was not just due to personal feel or longing, but because his approach had a flaw. See what he said to Silk Spectre on Mars, and you will see my point. True, Moore said that Manhattan did not interfere with the 'great disaster' in part due to his realisation that he was 'smaller' than the plan of things, or God, but he also was an emotionless fella, who let the events play out, choosing the 'balance' over life. Choosing calculations, over anguish, or choosing the derived best option over gut feeling. Hence, it is not really about whether he can or can't feel, but what his next and most likely action is, making the feeling or his emotion useless and only a gauging commodity. Ex: Batman chose to fly out of Gotham the moment his heart could not comprehend the drenching loss he faced in wake of the quake. He came back the moment he got his bearings back, and re-tuned his heart to withstand the anguish and put the need of the people first. If Manhattan was in his place, he would fly, or stay, based on his derivations next, only after going through his 'feelings'. Yet whatever he chose, fly or stay, would be final. Even if you cite Silk Spectre convincing him to go to earth, leaving Mars behind, it was not her at all, not in the least. Moore cited that as God, and an epiphany, that enlightened Manhattan and showed him his 'lesser place', and showed him a small definition of 'miracle'. Even upon going to earth, Manhattan left alive ozzy, killed 'Sach, and let the disaster happen. Hence, calculations, not feeling drives this cold hearted fella.

#54 G4hardcore

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 09:45 AM

I wasn't being philosophical, I was being literal. Doctor Manhattan has feelings, because there is evidence of such. When you continue to say that he is emotionless, just because of the course of action he may or may not have chosen, it shows a lack of understanding of the character. Just because a man watches a woman drown when he could have saved her, it doesn't mean the man won't go home and cry in the dark about it. Feelings/emotions and actions are very different, despite their interconnectedness.

He never really longed to stay human. Actually, he was growing away from humanity, and it was his emotions that kept him grounded, otherwise he would never have chosen any course of action at all. His reactions alone are the purest form of evidence that he retained the ability to feel emotion.

Also, to say that he let things happen that anyone else would have stopped is somewhat redundant. If anyone else were in his place, they would almost certainly choose identical paths. It's about perspective in this case. You can't possibly know what it's like until you don the black banana hammock yourself and experience everything he has. And at that point, you're virtually the same person, liable to make the same decisions, in a world where everything is predetermined (as stated by Manhattan himself).

#55 baneblade

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 10:14 AM

I wasn't being philosophical, I was being literal. Doctor Manhattan has feelings, because there is evidence of such. When you continue to say that he is emotionless, just because of the course of action he may or may not have chosen, it shows a lack of understanding of the character. Just because a man watches a woman drown when he could have saved her, it doesn't mean the man won't go home and cry in the dark about it. Feelings/emotions and actions are very different, despite their interconnectedness.

He never really longed to stay human. Actually, he was growing away from humanity, and it was his emotions that kept him grounded, otherwise he would never have chosen any course of action at all. His reactions alone are the purest form of evidence that he retained the ability to feel emotion.

Also, to say that he let things happen that anyone else would have stopped is somewhat redundant. If anyone else were in his place, they would almost certainly choose identical paths. It's about perspective in this case. You can't possibly know what it's like until you don the black banana hammock yourself and experience everything he has. And at that point, you're virtually the same person, liable to make the same decisions, in a world where everything is predetermined (as stated by Manhattan himself).


I never intended to say that you are philosophical in your statement, I only intended to say that the implications are so.

As for the opinions, I readily stated that we have ventured into a well of discussion, one that has no outcome. Based on opinion, it will go this way and that.

I will try my best to put all in a capsule (from my side). See, Juggernaut, felt Black Tom's ailment, so much so that, out of element, he had some form of empathy that affected his 'handi work'. Ex; Not feeling the same rage toward Spiderman, even from his past embarrassment, and allowing him to take a few shots here and there: bottom line, avoiding confrontation with only the agenda to help Tom on his mind. That is feelings made incarnate. That is how comics describe them. That is in my opinion, the purpose of comics, to 'display it all for us' the character's tendencies, and emotions, and then translating them into actions for us to see. If there is an action that was even off panel, it is described, pictorially, or by reference so that we are all on the same page. Anything other than that, is only supposition, or derivation of self. Manhattan's actions simply state (to me and to no doubt an open audience), that he puts his feelings and emotions into the backdrop, and lets his deductions, reasoning and longing for balance do the work. That is why he let Silk Spectre go. That is why he let those things happen.

I was only intending to put forth comic history. Let us take Batman for ex: If Batman had the power of a Lantern, do you really believe he would let people die there? Would Wolverine, or Cyclops, or even the one they call as cold as they come, Mr. Fantastic? My answer, keeping in view comic history, and not venturing into any open grounds of thought will be: Yes. They will defy the fates, and they will defy the fore tellings to save as many as they could there. Would they let a culprit walk away? Never. If your answer to any of these is yes, or even if you say that we can't know, then you are truly associating an open philosophical ground into the answer. Pure comic logic, character history and tendency state that they will each act out of heart, not merely out of reason, with a few variations, give and take. Manhattan won't. If he sees a child being crushed under a trailer, just because he sees a near future where she is involved in a crisis, he will (most likely) let it happen. Now, if he feels guilt right there, and I have openly said he does feel it, and if there is an extra iota of grief that is off panel, then it is non circumstantial. What is a factor is, what he has been known to do in a similar situation. It is a no brainer bro, he will let it slide, as long as the balance, or his derivation or reason is met. Hell, he was even 'non-feeling and totally reckless in respecting Silk Spectre's feelings, when he thought pleasure should be derived to a maximum! Who does that bro?! Only someone who does not feel, by extension. Lets say he feels, (and I think I am running a boring loop here) but it might as well not be there, since what he acts on is not what he felt, but what he did per his reasoning.

I am sorry, I think I can't convince anyone of it, if they were not in the first place. I tried though. I still think this is pure opinion, although I am trying to quote as close as possible from the source material, and not my own head n; heart. It's what Manhattan would do eh?

#56 Callisto

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 07:15 PM

Match Final Results
USER RATINGS
F
SCORE
Juggernaut: 13
Doctor Manhattan: 23
FPA: 0.5





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