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Match 12281 Superman vs. Son Goku

Superman vs Goku

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#41 force_echo

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:18 PM

IT is useless in terms of combat and reaction speed. Also, from what I've seen, Superman is a far smarter fighter than Goku. He's also undoubtedly more experienced.

#42 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 09:18 PM

Oh god, not this stupid IT bullshit again. -.-

IT is still limited purely by the reflexes/reaction time of Goku - meaning it's technically slower than Superman as he still has to trigger it. Once used, it's faster yeah but it doesn't also really serve any purpose other than maybe a few moment's respite before Superman meanders across him and they resume once more...

#43 Distance87

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 10:50 PM

Every episode of DBZ I have ever seen Thousands of punches are thrown maybe 300 hit. That is until he gets beaten to a pulp eats a bean gets stronger and then fights better. I have never seen ANY type of judo throws or take downs in DBZ I've seen the WWF wrestling move where goku grabs them by the ankles spin them around and let them go. And I dont remember Any of the people who "trained" goku actually teaching him a fighting technique. Roshi tought him the kamehameah, King ki tought him kaoken so on and so fourth no actual Martial Arts

I can tell you the exact martial arts Sueps was trained in, can you do the same for goku and saying some type of ki attack isnt a martial arts because lets face it ki attacks never quite hit their mark until the fight is almost over.

#44 Guest_Pympp_*

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 03:15 AM

I beg to differ, your analysis of IT is not backed up by anything except your own opinion. Goku constantly uses IT to evade attacks.

Cell gets hit by an instant Kamehameha

It is used while kid buu destroys Earth

Kid Buu uses it to travel to other planets instantly. Cell uses it. Fact is that it is dependent of the users ability to sense energy. Goku is a master of sensing energy and will use that to evade attacks.

Reflexes are important, but if you watch broly Goku is sleeping and evades an attack from him. He has shown reflexes almost like a spider sense where anything that comes at him is sensed. He does get hit, but Superman has been tossed by weaker and slower opponents.


The after image would be a great tool as well all his other abilities.

You guys are nothing but player haters. I give Superman much credit, bu you give Goku none.


#45 Distance87

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 03:52 AM

No goku get his credit when and where it is due. In this fight he brings nothing to the table, if some one anyone could explain in detail how how gokus IT works i mean does he just disappear and then reappear like magic (which i believe makes no sense at all) or is he breaking his body up at a cellular level and transporting himself across a light stream ( how most scientist believe telaportation would work) if it is the ladder he would be moving at the speed of light which makes the IT argument invalid as a way to gain an edge over Supe. Also goku cannot attack and use IT at the same time he has to appear and attack yes they are almost simultaneous but if both people move at the speed of light it is canceled out.

#46 sirmethos

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 05:37 AM

-sigh-

I'll take it one point at a time, as usual.


"People will argue that Batman is more skileld just because Batman has more issues that show him fighting"

No, the fact that Batman is more skilled than Goku, has nothing to do with the amount of issues that shows Batman and Goku(respectively) fighting. It is because of the amount of training that each of them has received.

Goku's skill lies in the 'DBZ' way of fighting. I.e. focusing on the use of Ki and Ki Attacks. Defeating the opponents through raw superior power(and speed) and superior Ki techniques. Batman's skill lies in hand-to-hand combat, defeating the opponent through superior combat skills.

I'm more than willing to take up that particular debate whenever you want, however this particular thread, is not about Batman vs. Goku.


"Superman's hearing is awesome and since Goku teleports and not just moves super fast as Vegeta or Gohan does he would be completely unaware of where Goku goes until he reappears."

That's true, and I've never said otherwise. However, Superman can, and will, hear the moment he re-appears, due to the displacement of air when Goku re-appears. And once that happens, we are(again) down to the difference in their speed.

I'll use an analogy for you, that I've become fond of using to explain it.

Imagine a fight between Nightcrawler and Quicksilver. Granted, the difference between Superman and Goku is bigger than the difference between Quicksilver and Nightcrawler, but the comparison still works.

Quicksilver is standing still in the middle of the area where they are fighting, Nightcrawler teleports and appears directly behind Quicksilver, with his two Katanas ready to strike. Now, by the time that Nightcrawler has actually managed to move his Katanas to where Quicksilver was when he(nightcrawler) appeared, Quicksilver will have already moved, and hit Nightcrawler a couple of hundred times in the face. The result? Quicksilver wins by K.O.


The difference between Superman and Goku is even greater. Superman won't just be able to hear Goku re-appearing much more clearly, than Quicksilver would be able to hear Nightcrawler('cause with Superman's hearing, the displacement of air when Goku re-appears would be much louder than the simple *bamf* of Nightcrawler's teleportation to Quicksilver's normal human senses, he can also hear Goku's heartbeat, the blood rushing through his veins, the air moving in his lungs, etc.). His reaction speed, and movement speed, is fast enough that Goku might as well be standing still, while Superman turns around and smacks him in the face, repeatedly.

But let's for a moment pretend, that Superman doesn't react. Goku actually manages to successfully launch his attack and hit Superman.

1. He hits him with a physical attack(a punch or a kick), at full force. The attack hits Superman directly in the back and... nothing happens.

2. He hits him with an energy attack(likely a kamehameha wave). The attack hits Superman directly in the back, and what happens? Nothing.

Superman's durability is high enough that Goku can't actually hurt him. Physically, Goku simply isn't powerful enough to hurt him. His energy attacks, are again not powerful enough to actually hurt him.


So, 1. Superman's reflexes and speed is high enough that teleportation or not, Goku won't actually hit him, if he doesn't want to get hit. And 2. Even if Goku does hit him. He isn't powerful enough to actually hurt him.


"Instant is faster than ftl."

That's true. But the Instant Transmission is only a method of moving from Point A to Point B. It doesn't affect Goku's speed in real-space, in any way.

If it was a race, of who could get from point A to point B, then Goku would win if the distance of the race was great enough. But it doesn't have any impact on an actual fight.



"This is skills vs powers and sometimes skills win, in this case Goku is not so weak that he would be defenseless. Batman was able to Judo Toss Superman, so what makes you think someone like Goku who is 100,000,000 times more powerful and just as skilled wouldn't."

That much is true. I've already said in my initial post, that Goku is by far the more skilled of the two. The problem for Goku, is that he doesn't have sufficient power to actually hurt Superman.

Take Spider-Man vs. Hulk. Skill vs. Power. There is absolutely no one who will deny that Spider-Man is the more skilled of the two, but Hulk would win every time in a straight up fight. Why? Because there's absolutely nothing that Spider-Man can do, that would actually hurt the Hulk. The same is the case in a straight up fight between Goku and Superman.


Superman can get physically hurt. definitely. But it takes raw physical strength comparable to his own, which Goku doesn't have.

Superman can get hurt by Energy as well. But again, it takes an amount of raw power, that Goku doesn't have.

#47 Shoggoth breeder

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 06:23 AM

I feel like I've seen this before.

#48 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 07:01 AM

I beg to differ, your analysis of IT is not backed up by anything except your own opinion. Goku constantly uses IT to evade attacks.

Cell gets hit by an instant Kamehameha

It is used while kid buu destroys Earth

Kid Buu uses it to travel to other planets instantly. Cell uses it. Fact is that it is dependent of the users ability to sense energy. Goku is a master of sensing energy and will use that to evade attacks.

Reflexes are important, but if you watch broly Goku is sleeping and evades an attack from him. He has shown reflexes almost like a spider sense where anything that comes at him is sensed. He does get hit, but Superman has been tossed by weaker and slower opponents.


The after image would be a great tool as well all his other abilities.

You guys are nothing but player haters. I give Superman much credit, bu you give Goku none.

No actually, if you say it's merely backed up by my opinion, the same is said for yours, much more so where it's actually less founded due to your apparent misunderstanding of the differences in reflexes between Goku and Superman and actual moving speed in between the two.

Instant Transmission does not equate to physical moving speed, and the way it is slower is that in order to trigger it, he has to reflexively, consciously trigger it - i.e. reaction time, which is a department that Superman far exceeds in comparison to the likes of Goku - it's why he's more likely to hit Goku before Goku would even realize the hit is coming and promptly react via teleporting to safety. Once triggered, it is absolutely faster than Superman's moving speed, yes, but that amounts to nothing as Goku can't actively utilize it to keep up with Superman, other than merely evade any attacks of his, which in of itself is very dubious at best as previously explained. So no, it's not 'hating the player', we do give him credit but we actually understand their capabilities and therefore accurately judge the difference in capability between the two. This is a particular topic that's been controversial with the likes of you for quite some time (actually a lengthy amount of time is more correct), as it seems to be that you can't understand the difference.

Man, that post sounded condescending but when someone repeats the same thing repetitively without clearly having understood it the first time (over like a several dozen times), it gets aggravating and the only thing left to do seems to be having to repeat it nonstop in differing formats that really mean the same thing (which seems to go misunderstood, obviously).

#49 Darxeth

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 11:27 AM

Superman has been hit by Batman before, so what's stopping Goku? Who's to say Superman will take few hits from Goku to see how powerful he is?

No matter though, because either way Superman wins.

#50 force_echo

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:10 PM

Take Spider-Man vs. Hulk. Skill vs. Power. There is absolutely no one who will deny that Spider-Man is the more skilled of the two, but Hulk would win every time in a straight up fight.

Spider-Man has knocked out the Hulk at least twice by dodging all of his punches and hitting him repeatedly. In fact, in any straight up fight between Spider-Man and the Hulk, I don't think the Hulk has ever won, Spider-Man's too fast and too smart.

#51 Darxeth

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:21 PM

I remember when Peter thought MJ had died and targeted the Hulk to unleash his pent-up frustration.

http://media.comicvi...an_16_super.jpg

Hulk still has nightmares of the event, no-doubt. :P

#52 force_echo

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:28 PM

I remember that one. Spider-Man beat his ass so badly he felt bad for The Hulk. Reminds me of Batman and Solomon Grundy during Long Halloween.

#53 Darxeth

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:38 PM

At least Solomon landed a hit on Batman in LH. (If I remember correctly)

Hulk was screaming in agony. Poor Green Bastard.

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 06:05 PM

While I see all your points, the only reason I beg to differ is to back up my side. I mean we have Sirmethos that says Superman can't be hurt by Goku, when we all know he could.

Guys IT is just that, it takes you to a point instantly regardless of space. It makes your body turn into little particals and sends them to their destination. We have a few people say it's useless in a fight. Where we all know it's not. It's very useful, and it could mean dodging an attack. He could have his shot ready as to when he appears he will be able to instantly shoot it.

The whole nightcrawler vs quicksilver is a good point, but with the exception of Goku's hits doing no damage. We all know it takes less than a planet punching attack to kill Superman, but not enough to not hurt him. Goku will hurt him if he's hit. And how many times has Goku fought someone faster and stronger? Every time. If anyone can show me that IT is different show me in the manga or even anime where it says it as the proof must come from you guys. Other than that watch him use it.

#55 kainboa

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 06:46 PM

snip


While I see all your points, the only reason I beg to differ is to back up my side. I mean we have Sirmethos that says Superman can't be hurt by Goku, when we all know he could.

No, we don't all know that Goku could hurt Superman, that's the reason why we're having this debate.

Guys IT is just that, it takes you to a point instantly regardless of space. It makes your body turn into little particals and sends them to their destination.

And you're still not getting it, alright, I'll try to explain it once more, in the hopes of finally getting you to understand it.

Goku needs to activate the IT, in order to do this, he at the very least, need to think about it, the time it takes him to think about it, is more time than it takes Superman to move over to him, and hit him in the face several times.

We have a few people say it's useless in a fight. Where we all know it's not.

Once again, we don't know anything, you are claiming that it's not useless, there is a vast difference between those two.

It's very useful, and it could mean dodging an attack.

Again, by the time Goku realises that he is under attack, his face will already have been hit several times.

He could have his shot ready as to when he appears he will be able to instantly shoot it.

The various attacks Goku is capable of doing, all move slower than light, which means that to Superman, they might as well not be moving at all, his reaction speed and movement speed is simply that much faster.

The whole nightcrawler vs quicksilver is a good point, but with the exception of Goku's hits doing no damage.

You missed the point completely, and are focusing on another part of that particular arguement.

The point isn't whether or not Goku can hurt Superman if he hits him, the point is that Goku won't hit Superman in the first place, since Superman is that much faster than him.

We all know it takes less than a planet punching attack to kill Superman, but not enough to not hurt him.

I'm going to guess that you mean planet busting, since everybody can punch a planet, and no, it requires quite a bit more than planet busting power to actually kill Superman, though I will agree that Planet busting attacks would hurt him.

And how many times has Goku fought someone faster and stronger?

There's a difference between fighting someone who is slightly faster and stronger than you, and fighting someone who is so much faster than you, that you might as well not be moving at all, which is the difference in speed between Goku and Superman.

If anyone can show me that IT is different show me in the manga or even anime where it says it as the proof must come from you guys. Other than that watch him use it.

Goku can use the IT all day long, and he's still not going to hit Superman, since as said, all of his attacks move slower than light, while Superman fairly casually makes light his bitch.

#56 Guest_Hahaha_*

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 07:04 PM

Sorry my typos are bad. I meant it takes more than a planet busting attack(although I meant punching as I'm Champion punching a planet apart in Thanos's Quest.).

Superman gets hit by far slower beings than Goku, and if you wish I can show you plenty of scans showing that. Unlike you guys that cannot show me other wise. I get the point of Simethos's argument but Quicksilver cannot hear super well, so getting sneak attacked is highly plausible.

Goku doesn't need to think to teleport unless he has to find the energy. In a frontal confrontation his energy anchor is right there. He will sense it and react to it rather than relying on sight. Remember Goku doesn't need light to see as he has fought in complete darkness. Where as the last argument was that Goku can't hurt him. I'm simply saying that he can. Ssj 3 is more than enough to do it as well.



#57 sirmethos

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 07:15 PM

I get the point of Simethos's argument but Quicksilver cannot hear super well, so getting sneak attacked is highly plausible.

I already pointed Quicksilver's normal human hearing out in my example. That's why I used Nightcrawler as my 'example teleporter', since his teleportation makes a distinct sound that a normal human can easily hear.


"Goku doesn't need to think to teleport unless he has to find the energy. In a frontal confrontation his energy anchor is right there."

I think that what Kain means by "needs to think", is that it requires, at a minimum, the same amount of thought as throwing a punch(i.e. it requires impulses from the brain).


"Remember Goku doesn't need light to see as he has fought in complete darkness."

What does that have to do with anything? Superman doesn't need visual light to see either, since he can see the entire electro-magnetic spectrum, and he can fight by just relying on his hearing.


"Where as the last argument was that Goku can't hurt him. I'm simply saying that he can. Ssj 3 is more than enough to do it as well."

If you have some kind of proof, that Goku at SS3, has the amount of force needed to actually hurt Superman, not to mention knock him unconscious, then by all means, share it with the class.

Physically, he can't hurt him. He simply doesn't have enough strength for it. But I'm open to the possibility that he might be able to provide enough raw energy in a Kamehameha wave. I doubt it, but I'm willing to be convinced if you have some kind of proof, that he can provide the necessary amount of raw destructive energy.

#58 force_echo

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 07:31 PM

The fact is, Pre-Flashpoint Superman needs a Galaxy busting attack or more to incapacitate or kill him.

#59 sirmethos

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 07:38 PM

Uh, not so much. A Super Nova is enough to do the trick.

Super Nova =/= Galaxy Busting. Solar System busting, definitely. But not Galaxy busting.

#60 force_echo

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 07:44 PM

A Supernova easily puts out as much energy as an entire galaxy at that moment in time. That's several orders of magnitude beyond the energy needed to destroy a solar system, hell, that's only a thousand times less than the mass-energy equivalence of an entire star.




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