Jump to content


Photo

The Dark Knight Rises


  • Please log in to reply
161 replies to this topic

#41 Pseudonym

Pseudonym

    Aqualad

  • CBUB Match Judges
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,845 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:41 PM

No.

#42 deojusto

deojusto

    I am One with the Ferret.

  • FPL Undercards Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,023 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:53 PM

Spoilers

Of course he survived, weren't you watching? Fox finds out the Bat had autopilot all along, proving it didn't need Bruce to pilot it at all. He jumped out before the explosion, went on to lead a normal life with Batman behind him, and he and Selina Kyle go live wherever Alfred sees them (she's the woman sitting across from him at the cafe). I'm assuming he used the clean slate stuff to clear her name as well.

#43 Landon

Landon

    The Main Character

  • Administrators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,479 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SATX

Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:54 PM

Much like Inception's "Is it still a dream or not" ending, I don't think it matters whether Wayne survived or not. Either way, he'll never be Batman again in this version of the story, and either way he'll be remembered as a hero. It's the effect of his actions on Gotham City that matters the most, and Wayne's survival is irrelevant to that.


That said, I don't trust Alfred's perspective on the matter. That's what he's always wanted to see. But yeah, it doesn't matter either way.

#44 Pseudonym

Pseudonym

    Aqualad

  • CBUB Match Judges
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,845 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:06 PM

It does matter in that his martyrdom was as false as Dent's.

#45 deojusto

deojusto

    I am One with the Ferret.

  • FPL Undercards Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,023 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:10 PM

Spoiler

But it kind of does matter. There's a whole arch in this story on whether he can have a life after being Batman. Its not all about Gotham. He's the main character, whether he survives the experience and comes out of it and finally can live a normal life is important, at least to me it is. There's an emotional connection to the character.

I never got the sense that Alfred was so delusional he would hallucinate seeing Bruce at the cafe. We know for certain that the Bat did have auto-pilot. If he is dead, then why? He would have to be suicidal. The whole thing with the prison was him re-gaining his fear of death, so he wouldn't kill himself for no reason. Also, Selina is with Bruce at the cafe. Yet Alfred only met her once and even then he had no idea who she was, he left before she became a major piece in the puzzle. She was just a random thief when he last heard of her. I think he saw her there because she was there. His brain would have to hallucinate in gymnastics to recognize that Bruce made her an ally after he left him.

#46 deojusto

deojusto

    I am One with the Ferret.

  • FPL Undercards Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,023 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:15 PM

It does matter in that his martyrdom was as false as Dent's.



The Batman did martyr himself though. He gave blood sweat and tears to the city. Everything he did, every selfless act he committed is still the same, and the Batman (as a concept) returned from the grave/hell to save the city then left into the heavens in a mushroom cloud. Bruce Wayne survived, but Bruce was never the hero, the Batman was. The trilogy had all this stuff about the difference between them, and I think Batman can still be a martyr without Bruce dying with him, because he is finally able to let go of him.

Also, the city wasn't honoring him for dying, they were honoring him for saving them. He probably would have gotten the creepy statue even if he stayed around

#47 Pseudonym

Pseudonym

    Aqualad

  • CBUB Match Judges
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,845 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:18 PM

Man, you really disliked this movie.

The Batman did martyr himself though. He gave blood sweat and tears to the city. Everything he did, every selfless act he committed is still the same, and the Batman (as a concept) returned from the grave/hell to save the city then left into the heavens in a mushroom cloud. Bruce Wayne survived, but Bruce was never the hero, the Batman was. They weren't honoring him for dying, they were honoring him for saving them.


So did Dent. Dent gave Blood, Sweat, and Tears. Dent did just as much for the city but when the city took his woman (and his good looks) He decided to start taking back. The White Knight of Gotham and the Dark Knight of Gotham have a lot in common.

#48 Peypeypeypey

Peypeypeypey

    The truthiness will set you free

  • CBUB Match Judges
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,221 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Indiana

Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:33 PM

Spoilers

Of course he survived, weren't you watching? Fox finds out the Bat had autopilot all along, proving it didn't need Bruce to pilot it at all. He jumped out before the explosion, went on to lead a normal life with Batman behind him, and he and Selina Kyle go live wherever Alfred sees them (she's the woman sitting across from him at the cafe). I'm assuming he used the clean slate stuff to clear her name as well.


Do you realize the range of that bomb? I watched the movie, I just don't think it's possible that he could have survived. When, exactly, did he jump out of the plane? It showed a shot of him in the plane mere seconds before it exploded. Even if he did set the auto-pilot, he would have still been in the range of the nuclear bomb that has a six mile radius.

As for Fox finding the auto pilot, I thought that was to further emphasize that Bruce Wayne knew that he had to sacrifice himself in order to save Gotham. Remember what happened with Dent? How everything was fine until the secret got out and then literally everything was worse? I'd say that's a good reason to not fake his death.

As for Alfred seeing him in the diner place, I say that was to show that he was finally at peace, and that Alfred finally saw it. He had literally given everything to make Gotham a better place, and now he could finally rest in peace. I think everything you pointed out only furthers the point that Batman had to die to make Gotham a better place.

#49 Magnamax

Magnamax

    Don't feed him after midnight

  • CBUB Match Judges
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 642 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:46 PM

So what kind of accent did Bane have? His vowels got all wonky, was that Scottish or what?

Tom Hardy claims he based Bane's voice off of Bartley Gorman, who was an undefeated Irish bare-knuckled boxer, who was the champion of The United Kingdom and Ireland.

#50 silversurfer092

silversurfer092

    Yeezus

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,631 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 July 2012 - 11:01 PM

Bruce Wayne as Batman died. No one else. Batman didn't, as John Blake is handed the mantle, and Bruce Wayne didn't, as he's seen in Florence. Simple as that. Anything else is someone looking far too into it.

Dent and Batman differed entirely. Dent cracked, he went evil, he began to undo everything he did. He showed that the best people can turn evil. Batman didn't. He never went evil. He "died" the hero, to reference TDK. Batman was something more, he was the symbol. The legacy that Batman left behind, the symbol of hope and heroism, that stayed. It might have been empowered by his supposed martyrdom and now by the statue that's left behind.

As I said above, only Bruce Wayne as Batman died. Batman became a symbol, an icon, and therefore, as said in Batman Begins, is immortal. That's what the whole trilogy is about. The evolution of Batman. Bruce Wayne is still alive and kicking in Florence with Selina Kyle.

#51 Magnamax

Magnamax

    Don't feed him after midnight

  • CBUB Match Judges
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 642 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 July 2012 - 11:56 PM

Bruce Wayne as Batman died. No one else. Batman didn't, as John Blake is handed the mantle, and Bruce Wayne didn't, as he's seen in Florence. Simple as that. Anything else is someone looking far too into it.

Dent and Batman differed entirely. Dent cracked, he went evil, he began to undo everything he did. He showed that the best people can turn evil. Batman didn't. He never went evil. He "died" the hero, to reference TDK. Batman was something more, he was the symbol. The legacy that Batman left behind, the symbol of hope and heroism, that stayed. It might have been empowered by his supposed martyrdom and now by the statue that's left behind.

As I said above, only Bruce Wayne as Batman died. Batman became a symbol, an icon, and therefore, as said in Batman Begins, is immortal. That's what the whole trilogy is about. The evolution of Batman. Bruce Wayne is still alive and kicking in Florence with Selina Kyle.

I don't think that's reading too far into it, the ending is very open to interpretation. I do, however, agree with Landon that it doesn't matter, the sacrifice is the same either way.

I do think that the film sets up for Batman to die, and I also feel that the sacrifice is a little lessened if Bruce actually escapes—I also haven't heard a good theory as to how he escapes either—so I think Nolan would set Bruce up to die and that last shot was seeing Bruce finally at peace, having been relieved of his duties as Batman and could finally move on.

Either way, though, the meaning is the same.

The ending is also great either way, I thought it was the best way possible to end the film. It was a very well composed ending.

#52 Darkender

Darkender

    Believes Han shot first

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,557 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 July 2012 - 10:21 AM

It was a spectacular ending but I do think you're reading a bit into it if you think Alfred was hallucinating at the end. Why would they mention the autopilot if Batman did literally die? It wouldn't make sense to mention it. If you want a plausible way of how he survived? He's Batman. lol "prep time". He's survived worse.

And I still feel Batman never really beat anybody (Except maybe that wall). I would even go as far as to say the way he weakened bane was contrived.

#53 silversurfer092

silversurfer092

    Yeezus

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,631 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 July 2012 - 10:38 AM

I don't think that's reading too far into it, the ending is very open to interpretation. I do, however, agree with Landon that it doesn't matter, the sacrifice is the same either way.

I do think that the film sets up for Batman to die, and I also feel that the sacrifice is a little lessened if Bruce actually escapes—I also haven't heard a good theory as to how he escapes either—so I think Nolan would set Bruce up to die and that last shot was seeing Bruce finally at peace, having been relieved of his duties as Batman and could finally move on.

Either way, though, the meaning is the same.

The ending is also great either way, I thought it was the best way possible to end the film. It was a very well composed ending.


How is the ending open to interpretation? Bruce fixed the autopilot as stated by the mechanics to Lucius Fox. Alfred isn't some drug addled dreamer, he doesn't just hallucinate things. Bruce and Selina were in Florence at the end of the movie. What more proof do you need that he survived?

#54 Magnamax

Magnamax

    Don't feed him after midnight

  • CBUB Match Judges
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 642 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 July 2012 - 11:55 AM

How is the ending open to interpretation? Bruce fixed the autopilot as stated by the mechanics to Lucius Fox. Alfred isn't some drug addled dreamer, he doesn't just hallucinate things. Bruce and Selina were in Florence at the end of the movie. What more proof do you need that he survived?

Alfred doesn't need to be some "drug addled dreamer" nor does he need to be hallucinating, the image could easily just be him seeing Bruce finally at peace, easily that can be seen as metaphorical. He sees Bruce as he always wanted to see him, finally freed of his burden as Batman whether he is alive or dead.

There also is no proof that he definitively survived the bomb or got out of the plane, how did he survive the blast? He is clearly in the plane by the time he clears the school bus which means he has about 10-15 seconds to get out of the plane and get clear of the bomb. There is also the fact plenty of people were watching Batman flying out there, someone should have seen him get out. Even if he fixed the autopilot, that doesn't mean that he can automatically survive, if anything it makes his sacrifice bigger as he wanted to be sure the bomb went off over the water and knew the sacrifice had to be absolute, completing his journey as an almost Christ-esque figure for Gotham.

I think the sacrifice makes more sense if Batman actually died, again, given what happened with Dent's sacrifice I'm not sure if Bruce would want to leave his sacrifice to chance. At the end of the movie too many people know Bruce is Batman for him to just survive and leave to chance that someone will put it together that Batman really lived and his action could be undone. I just don't feel Nolan would build that long towards Batman dying and then just not kill him.

Again, I think the ending is the same symbolically either way, but I think there is room to interpret it either way.

#55 Magnamax

Magnamax

    Don't feed him after midnight

  • CBUB Match Judges
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 642 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 July 2012 - 12:02 PM

It was a spectacular ending but I do think you're reading a bit into it if you think Alfred was hallucinating at the end. Why would they mention the autopilot if Batman did literally die? It wouldn't make sense to mention it. If you want a plausible way of how he survived? He's Batman. lol "prep time". He's survived worse.

And I still feel Batman never really beat anybody (Except maybe that wall). I would even go as far as to say the way he weakened bane was contrived.

How is that contrived? He beat Bane physically, then attacked him at his weak point...

#56 Pseudonym

Pseudonym

    Aqualad

  • CBUB Match Judges
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,845 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 July 2012 - 12:12 PM

1. If Batman beat Bane, then it made no sense for him to. He didn't have any sort of heroic transformation that would have allowed him to fight better.
2. If I remember, Batman just happened to smack him in the mask.

#57 Magnamax

Magnamax

    Don't feed him after midnight

  • CBUB Match Judges
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 642 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 July 2012 - 12:20 PM

1. If Batman beat Bane, then it made no sense for him to. He didn't have any sort of heroic transformation that would have allowed him to fight better.
2. If I remember, Batman just happened to smack him in the mask.

I don't understand the "he had no heroic transformation" argument, did you not watch the entire sequence where he was in the pit? That would be the transformation, he rediscovered his fire and desire to beat Bane. One might say he "rose" from rock bottom, came out stronger and then was able to beat Bane.

He was fighting with Bane and doing significantly better in the fight, gained the upper hand, then exploited Bane's weakness. He is told that Bane needs that mask to survive the pain by the doctor who operated on Bane while in the pit, so he uses that intel to his advantage.

#58 Pseudonym

Pseudonym

    Aqualad

  • CBUB Match Judges
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,845 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 July 2012 - 12:55 PM

The Pit didn't feel like a transformation to me. It just felt like stalling. Why was he doing better in the second fight? All he had done was climb some rocks.

#59 silversurfer092

silversurfer092

    Yeezus

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,631 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 July 2012 - 12:56 PM

I'm with Pseudonym. It didn't feel like he transformed at all. I guess the real transformation was wherein Alfred said Bruce wanted to fail, then coming out of the Pit, he no longer wanted to fail.

#60 Magnamax

Magnamax

    Don't feed him after midnight

  • CBUB Match Judges
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 642 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 July 2012 - 01:02 PM

I'm with Pseudonym. It didn't feel like he transformed at all. I guess the real transformation was wherein Alfred said Bruce wanted to fail, then coming out of the Pit, he no longer wanted to fail.

Exactly, the transformation was mental he realized the lengths and mindset he needed to go to in order to beat Bane. I don't understand how the scene was staling, if you didn't like then I guess I understand, but that was honestly the entire turning point of the film where Bruce recovers and rediscovers what he has to do to be Batman again. He is different person coming out of the pit, before he underestimated Bane and acted as though he knew he would win, after he understood what to do to win.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users