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A conversation about the tragedy in Colorado


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#21 RakaiThwei

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 12:03 AM

12 people murdered and 50 so wounded while watching a movie is shocking no matter what.


And one of those people happened to be a six year old child. I also heard that another was a four year old.

Saying that the deaths of children isn't shocking comes off as heartless, if not being heartless.

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#22 sirmethos

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 12:15 AM

12 people murdered and 50 so wounded while watching a movie is shocking no matter what. Saying it isn't is honestly stupid. You're a very smart man Methos, but when it comes to subjects like this, you're stupid. How do you honestly not see this as shocking? Do you want a debate that bad? I'm sorry but you actually pissed me off with this remark. 12 people going to see a movie will never get to see their loved ones because of some psychotic serial killer and that's not shocking? If it were people you knew, would it be shocking then?

Just because they happen semi-regularly gives us no reason to be any less appalled. Tragedies such as these will always be shocking, for there will never be a good reason for them to happen. Senseless killings will forever be shocking.

However, if you must have this point of view, here you go. http://www.theonion....28857/?ref=auto


Did I say it was not appalling? No, quite the opposite in fact. It's most definitely appalling. Horrible and tragic. But it's, just as definitely, not a surprise.

That article is pretty accurate. I wouldn't say two weeks. But give it a few months, maybe a year, and it'll be no more noticeable than any of the other similar shootings were after a few months, or a year.

"How do you honestly not see this as shocking?" Because "shock", implies a certain element of surprise. And as I've already said a few times, it's most definitely not a surprise.

Would I be "shocked" if it was people I knew? Hell if I know. Ask me again once that scenario has happened and I'll let you know.

"Do you want a debate that bad?" Yea, because giving my honest opinion, is always done because I want to debate[/sarcasm]

If I wanted to start a debate, I would have pointed out that this thing is only getting this much attention, because it happened in the U.S. Giving several examples, just in the last year, that are just as horrible, of similar mass-killings, that didn't get anywhere near the same level of attention, if it got any attention at all.

Like the 6 people that got killed with a knife, in an apartment in Jersey, U.K. in August last year. Or the Oslo killings, with a psycho going berserk with an automatic weapon at a summer camp. etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Maybe even going as far as calling you a damn hypocrite for getting this upset, over a killing like this in the U.S. While completely ignoring other killings just like it, in other parts of the world.

But I didn't.

I simply pointed out the fact that: It's horrible, it's tragic. But it's definitely not a surprise.

#23 Ivan

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 01:19 AM

As I stated in the opening post, human beings don't have the capacity to deal with tragedy easily, so we default to the factory settings. I believe, in sirmethos' case, that involves creating distance by implying such tragedies are predictable, (and therefor avoidable.) Conflating past events with the current example is another way to marginalize the impact of what happened. We all have ways of "writing off" information that makes us uncomfortable. It is sometimes easy to act cynical, because it gives the illusion of control. I think methos' statements are a completely natural reaction. I also understand why that expression of cynicism upsets people, who don't want to meekly accept the nihilism of that response. There's a frustration, a feeling of impotence, to which the regular response is "there must be something we can DO!"

#24 sirmethos

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 01:58 AM

As I stated in the opening post, human beings don't have the capacity to deal with tragedy easily, so we default to the factory settings. I believe, in sirmethos' case, that involves creating distance by implying such tragedies are predictable, (and therefor avoidable.) Conflating past events with the current example is another way to marginalize the impact of what happened. We all have ways of "writing off" information that makes us uncomfortable. It is sometimes easy to act cynical, because it gives the illusion of control. I think methos' statements are a completely natural reaction. I also understand why that expression of cynicism upsets people, who don't want to meekly accept the nihilism of that response. There's a frustration, a feeling of impotence, to which the regular response is "there must be something we can DO!"


Well, you're partially correct about my response.

We just have to look at how frequent attacks like that are to know that they are, to a point, predictable. But only to the point where "it's gonna happen again sooner or later". I don't think attacks like that are, in any way, avoidable. Quite the contrary, they are unavoidable.

It's simply a case of "haters gonna hate." There's always gonna be another psycho with a weapon. Just like, around here, there's always gonna be another troll. it's just a matter of time.

In the case of the troll, we're all annoyed, amused, irritated,etc. that he's there, but there isn't a single one of us, that is surprised that another troll has shown up. The same goes for killings like this. It's a tragedy. It's horrible. But it sure as hell isn't a surprise.

And yet, with killings like this, every single time, people are going "we never saw it coming!" -.- If that's the case, then you're either an idiot, or in denial.


The M.O. might be a bit different than the last one, the location and timing is different. But a massacre is a massacre is a massacre. Wanna start a real discussion? Then start looking at the actual problem, whatever that is, and not the individual psycho gone berserk.

The killings are just the symptoms. Try talking about the actual disease instead.


And one of those people happened to be a six year old child. I also heard that another was a four year old.

Saying that the deaths of children isn't shocking comes off as heartless, if not being heartless.

-Rakai'Thwei


The fact that children died, just makes it that much more horrible and tragic. It doesn't make it any more of a surprise. And again, "shock", implies a certain element of surprise.

Saying it's not a surprise, simply because children were involved, makes me heartless? From where I'm standing, saying that it is a surprise. Children or no children, makes you, to repeat myself(again): "either an idiot, or in denial."

#25 M Bison

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 04:36 AM

Yeah, I think everyone except Ivan has misunderstood Methos. He states he finds it appalling and disgusting. He's agreeing about that. He's just saying it's not a shock. While I'm not sure what my own opinion on all this is, I don't think his stance is particularly unreasonable.

#26 LoneWolf

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 06:36 AM

You know what would be terrible? If this guy was a CBUB user. He obviously had an interest in comics, he called himself the Joker and attacked a Batman showing. I wouldn't be surprised if when the cops search his apartment, he has been to this site, or at least Comicvine and has a user name.

#27 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 07:47 AM

I am angry about this. This guy is a fucking coward, it's not enough to kill adults, he killed little kids. This bastard needs to have serious pain inflicted on him. Sure he can get the death penalty, but he won't feel pain from it. People like this guy need to be tortured and killed. The amount of pain this guy has caused for the families is unbelievable. A night for fun turns to horror. I know I sound cynical, but that is how I feel about people like him.

As a father I had to choke back tears seeing a man search for his son , not knowing if he is dead or not. Then to see the killer smiling in his mug shot really pissed me off. Than you have Obama and Romney acting like they care. It's only political reasons they care, that to me is an insult to all the affected families that you pretend to care for political points.

It always seems it is the quiet ones that do this. He was real reclusive, and barely talked to people. Now the media and people are trying to blame guns and the Joker for him acting this way. Pretty weird this tragedy happens a week before the UN gun ban.

My heart goes out to all the families. This really makes me appreciate life and my family more.

#28 ThePhenomenalOne

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 08:36 AM

Methos. So when you were told this happened, did you just respond in a monotonic voice, "tragic, no surprise though."

"And yet, with killings like this, every single time, people are going "we never saw it coming!" -.- If that's the case, then you're either an idiot, or in denial."

This is one of the dumbest things you've said. People didn't see it coming. If people thought things like his happen on a 'semi-regular' basis, people would be more weary about going out. I can't recall a movie theatre massacre before. So how in the hell should've anyone seen this coming.

"In the case of the troll, we're all annoyed, amused, irritated,etc. that he's there, but there isn't a single one of us, that is surprised that another troll has shown up. The same goes for killings like this. It's a tragedy. It's horrible. But it sure as hell isn't a surprise."

No. Trust me, seeing a troll isn't a surprise. Hearing innocent people lose their lives at a fucking movie theatre is. the 2 are rather different.

If I wanted to start a debate, I would have pointed out that this thing is only getting this much attention, because it happened in the U.S. Giving several examples, just in the last year, that are just as horrible, of similar mass-killings, that didn't get anywhere near the same level of attention, if it got any attention at all.

Like the 6 people that got killed with a knife, in an apartment in Jersey, U.K. in August last year. Or the Oslo killings, with a psycho going berserk with an automatic weapon at a summer camp. etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.


Both of these received attention in the US. They were both really tragic. They were also shocking and a surprise.

Maybe even going as far as calling you a damn hypocrite for getting this upset, over a killing like this in the U.S. While completely ignoring other killings just like it, in other parts of the world.

Now you can't really go that far without actually asking me about those events can you? Didn't think so. So that is moot.

How does a man wearing a bullet proof vest, carrying an assault rifle, a shotgun, and 2 pistols who throws a can of a smoke bomb through an audience at a movie theatre and then starts shooting everyone insight, eventually killing 12 and wounding 50 so, not shocking or a surprise??

That doesn't have that 'certain element of surprise'? I hope your parents never tried to give you a surprise party. Because by your logic, getting a surprise party on your birthday is something that would constitute as semi-regular. Family and friends would scream surprise and you would just look at them and say, "Not a surprise at all, quite the opposite actually."

"But a massacre is a massacre is a massacre"

Exactly, and no matter how many times it happens, it will forever be shocking.

If Family Feud were on, and they said, 'Phenomenal, we surveyed 100 people and the top 6 answers are on the board. Tell us something that is shocking.'

"Ok, I got it. A massacre." I would say confidently

"Ok. For the win. SHOW ME MASSACRE!" the host would scream

the number 2 spot on the board would then flip over and reveal the word massacre. I would jump up and down with my family. The host would then grab me and say.

"Stay tuned as Phenomenal and his family go on to play Fast Money for a chance at 20,000 dollars!!"

No matter what. It is shocking.

Would it be more shocking to you if it happened in Denmark?

What defines shocking for you?

Why do you think these things happen on a 'semi-regulat' basis? Because they don't.

#29 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 08:47 AM

And yet, with killings like this, every single time, people are going "we never saw it coming!" -.- If that's the case, then you're either an idiot, or in denial.

You should choose your words better. No matter how many times things like this happen, you don't see it coming. I suppose the people who died are idiots because they didn't see it coming.

#30 God-Speed_88

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 08:55 AM

It is a tragedy, but surely now drastic steps must be taken to resolve such barbaric behaviour, it seems to happen way too often in America. For example: The Second Amendment, the right to bear arms, is that really needed in this day and age? When Scotland went through the Dunblane Massacre in the 80's, we just outright banned ownership of handguns. Since then we haven't had a shooting of its magnitude (thank the Lord). Sure we still have the nutjobs, but for someone to obtain half the arsenal that killer did, without being caught, would be extremely difficult.

Before anyone jumps down my throat and thinks I'm putting the blame on America, rather than that savage c****, well I'm not, but surely something must be done in order to protect the innocent from this happening again? Surely people must see the benefit in banning most firearms? Who needs them?

#31 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:01 AM

I said it once, I'll say it again. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Gun or not, if a psycho wants to kill someone he will do it. I understand your point of view, but guns shouldn't be the scape goat here. This guy supposedly had booby traps in his apartment, I am willing to bet that if he couldn't get a gun, he just would have used a home made bomb.

EDIT: Not trying to be a "gun nut" but it is frustrated that an inanimate object gets blamed for human behavior.

#32 ThePhenomenalOne

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:05 AM

I like guns. I own guns. I like the Second Amendment. There is no reason whatsoever for someone to own an assault rifle. It's pointless. Buy a shotgun, buy a pistol, or a .30-06. No need for an AR-15. Ban assault rifles.

#33 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:10 AM

I'm not saying we need RPGs and land mines. All I am saying is that guns aren't the ones that caused this. An untreated psychotic did.

#34 God-Speed_88

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:15 AM

"Sure we still have the nutjobs, but for someone to obtain half the arsenal that killer did, without being caught, would be extremely difficult. "

I very much doubt he could have rigged an entire theatre without being caught. Plus setting bombs up would have been far more susceptible to risk on his behalf.

The greater the arsenal one can obtain, the greater the damage caused. It's common sense.

#35 God-Speed_88

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:19 AM

Sorry, I do apologise, I feel I may have turned this thread into everything it wasn't supposed to be. Again, I apologise Ivan.

My heart goes out to all my fallen Bat lovers and to their families, it truly is a tragedy. I'll keep them in my prayers.

#36 Nilan

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:46 AM

I just have a few thoughts on stuff posted so far:

1. God-Speed: A debate over the second amendment at this point, only confirms Ivan's diagnosis that it's yet another way for humans, who aren't equipped to deal with such tragedies, to use such things to rant about their pet hates. This debate, which we've probably already seen in these forums in several hundred manifestations, all over again, isn't going to change anybody's mind or shed any new light on the subject. The only thing it does is take us back to the same circular arguments.

2. Hayes: Yes, that could have been ANY of us, which is why the least we can do is tone the sanctimoniousness down. Claims that this guy should be tortured and bringing up unrelated international firearm legislation...those shed absolutely NO substance to a collective discussion on what the appropriate reaction to this tragedy should be, if at all there can be one.

3. Methos: I couldn't disagree more with anyone who thinks events like this occur in the USA on an adequately regular scale to be genuinely surprised that people are surprised. There are places all over the world where tragedies like this really do happen regularly, the USA is NOT one of them. To claim that the biggest surprise here is that people are surprised, is to have an extremely skewered view of firearm-related deaths both in the US and all over the globe.

#37 comic_book_fan

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:53 AM

The Unabomber was much more accomplished and did terrible things as well.

all these guys turn out to be smart people just batshit crazy.

#38 treacherous

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:04 AM

It may be a testament to mankind that this doesn't happen more often. Take away man's fear of punishment (or punishment altogether) and wouldn't we see this more often? How morally sound are we if the lights are off, so to speak. This guy obviously didn't care. Maybe he was psychologically unhinged...maybe. Or perhaps, he just turned off that switch that makes this considered "wrong". Does that make him crazy? As Nilan said, there are worse atrocities carried out around the world regularly. Are they all CRAZY!! Probably not, some people just don't use the same moral barometer as others. He may not be nuts, he may honestly believe you are all nuts.

I think if most of you were put in the right circumstances, you'd be surprised at what horrors a person could do. Many of us have the capacity for this sort of violence if put in the right situations. Lord of the Flies wasn't that off base.



#39 Darxeth

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:19 AM

From what I've seen on the news, it's usually the quiet, bullied people.
The again, I suppose what type of person Holmes is doesn't matter now.

Sometimes I have I strive to figure out what drives people to do the things they do, but in this case, maybe it's better I don't find out.

I would imagine that some people have experienced things capable or warping anyone's mind.

"All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy." -Joker
Maybe the quote is inaccurate and not credible, but I personally believe it to be true.

#40 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:38 AM

2. Hayes: Yes, that could have been ANY of us, which is why the least we can do is tone the sanctimoniousness down. Claims that this guy should be tortured and bringing up unrelated international firearm legislation...those shed absolutely NO substance to a collective discussion on what the appropriate reaction to this tragedy should be, if at all there can be one.

Agreed, I typed that out of anger. It's just frustrating that throwing someone in jail and giving them a death sentence some how means justice is served. There is no way of taking away the pain he caused. Just frustrating.




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