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Match 12141 The Star Wars Fanatics vs. Trekkies


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#41 force_echo

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 10:28 PM

A warp drive is a more scientifically accepted method of FTL travel than travelling through a higher dimension- which is kind of ridiculous.

#42 Ruinus

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 10:38 PM

The warp drive is still silly and only "sounds" like hard sci-fi because parts of it make scientific sense.

I'll also counter that while Star Trek attempts to label it's magic as science or come off as more reasonable than Star Wars (when in fact they are both unreasonable and silly), Star Trek fails to be hard sci-fi when it has sound weapons in space.

#43 force_echo

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 10:44 PM

Did I ever say it was hard sci-fi? In fact, IIRC, I mentioned quite a few universes that were significantly harder. I'm just saying it's harder than Star Wars.

Obviously there are gonna be some problems to the development and plausibility, otherwise we would have it right now. But it's more grounded in real scientific theory than Star War's hyperdrive.

#44 Ruinus

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 11:25 PM

If you want to claim the warp drive puts its ahead of SW on the sci-fi hardness scale, then I'll counter by pointing out any points ST earns on that scale are lost by sound weapons in space.

#45 AVP vs The Terminator

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:08 AM

The idea of Star Trek being "hard sci-fi" or being harder sci-fi than Star Wars is amusing. I guess Star Trek is harder because it calls its space ghosts noncorporeal energy beings instead of ghosts?


I'm speaking of the movie, and there are no "space ghosts" to speak of.

#46 force_echo

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 08:04 AM

If you want to claim the warp drive puts its ahead of SW on the sci-fi hardness scale, then I'll counter by pointing out any points ST earns on that scale are lost by sound weapons in space.

Touche'.

#47 DamagingRob

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 08:11 AM

Heh. I love how many posts this is getting after the results are in. :P

DamagEdit: And hooray! My avi finally switched.

#48 Ruinus

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:02 PM

I'm speaking of the movie, and there are no "space ghosts" to speak of.


And I was responding to the claim that Star Trek is harder than Star Wars, even then your statement that the new Star Trek is "pure, hard science fiction" is laughably wrong. Hard sci-fi doesn't have FTL.

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:09 PM

"Science fiction is a genre of fiction dealing with imaginary but more or less plausible (or at least non-supernatural) content such as futuresettings, futuristic science and technology, space travel, aliens, and paranormal abilities. Exploring the consequences of scientific innovations is one purpose of science fiction, making it a "literature of ideas".

Science fiction is largely based on writing rationally about alternative possible worlds or futures. It is similar to, but differs from fantasy in that, within the context of the story, its imaginary elements are largely possible within scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws of nature (though some elements in a story might still be pure imaginative speculation)."

Mind sharing exactly how the new Star Trek movie doesn't fit this description? Saying that FTL travel doesn't fall under this banner is your opinion, and a flawed one at that, considering the concept of FTL travel is, more or less, theoretically possible.

And you've yet to give a reason as to why it isn't harder than Star Wars.

#50 Ruinus

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:20 PM

Mind sharing exactly how the new Star Trek movie doesn't fit this description?



Hard science-fiction.

Hard sci-fi actually attempts to conform to realistic science, Star Trek does not.

Saying that FTL travel doesn't fall under this banner is your opinion, and a flawed one at that, considering the concept of FTL travel is, more or less, theoretically possible.


Show proof of that FTL is theoretically possible. I know about the real life Alcubierre Drive, but that's only "theoretically possible" if you hand wave away the energy requirements being more than the energy of the universe.

FTL travel, if treated "realistically" would also result in time travel, and while Star Trek has time travel in it, it wouldn't be a special occasion type of deal, all FTL travel (again, if treated "realistically) results in time travel.

]And you've yet to give a reason as to why it isn't harder than Star Wars.


Star Trek has sound weapons in space.

#51 force_echo

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 10:41 PM

FTL travel, if treated "realistically" would also result in time travel, and while Star Trek has time travel in it, it wouldn't be a special occasion type of deal, all FTL travel (again, if treated "realistically) results in time travel.

Unless it doesn't. FTL travel using a dark energy bubble wouldn't result in time travel because you're manipulating spacial distortion on a higher dimension. So if you were to create a bubble of dark energy and use that, it wouldn't result in time travel- realistically. Well realistically in the sense that the tech actually exists.

#52 Ruinus

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:15 PM

Unless it doesn't. FTL travel using a dark energy bubble wouldn't result in time travel because you're manipulating spacial distortion on a higher dimension. So if you were to create a bubble of dark energy and use that, it wouldn't result in time travel- realistically. Well realistically in the sense that the tech actually exists.


It doesn't matter if the ship itself isn't actually "moving", moving through a wormhole, somehow magically gaining speed past c or any other method of FTL, the end result is that you arrive at your destination (let's say Alpha Centauri in this example) and you can look back at Earth and you're still there. You then turn your ship around and head back to Earth and you end up arriving before you've left.

#53 Ruinus

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:24 PM

This page specifically mentions folding space or using some sort of warp drive. Again, all FTL travel methods "realistically" end up with time travel. It's based on real science, even if we don't know if there are some sort of extra level of physics in FTL-land, the end result is that you end up with objects appearing in realspace where they shouldn't be. So even if, say, the ship Lollipop Lane enters hyperspace/folds space/enters a wormhole and the rules of physics are different in that bubble of folded space, in hyperspace, or in folding the Universe like a piece of paper, when it stops doing that it ends up back in the normal mundane universe. And needless to say, the Universe looks at that ship and says "What the hell you aren't supposed to be here."

#54 force_echo

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:05 AM

Except I'm not talking about folding space or a warp drive. The ship using the dark energy bubble would remain in our universe, it's just the bubble that manipulates the extra spacial dimensions of string theory. Dr. Gerald Cleaver at Baylor University says that this method of FTL travel wouldn't result in any causality errors or time dilation. You would simply go from one point to the next faster than light.

I read the diagram you linked, and for some reason, it assumes that you wouldn't use the same method FTL to transmit information between C and D, making the space-time diagram inapplicable again, and allowing the preservation of causality.

#55 Ruinus

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:55 AM

Except I'm not talking about folding space or a warp drive. The ship using the dark energy bubble would remain in our universe, it's just the bubble that manipulates the extra spacial dimensions of string theory. Dr. Gerald Cleaver at Baylor University says that this method of FTL travel wouldn't result in any causality errors or time dilation. You would simply go from one point to the next faster than light.


Link 1
Link 2

Post the one where he says it won't cause time travel, because as I understand it any movement at FTL speeds (no matter the method) causes time travel.

I read the diagram you linked, and for some reason, it assumes that you wouldn't use the same method FTL to transmit information between C and D, making the space-time diagram inapplicable again, and allowing the preservation of causality.


I assume you are talking about diagram 9.1?
If so, then:
  • e) An observer at C sends an FTL signal to D. Since the space-time between C and D need not be effected by the bullet's FTL travel, our space-time diagrams can be applied.


#56 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:00 AM

To the issue of getting married as a Jedi; It is against the Jedi order. That is why Anakin did it secretly. it goes against the Jedi Code. Revan doing it in his time is just as bad as Anakin doing it. The Jedi are like monks, they don't live for themselves.

#57 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:17 AM

Yet Luke Skywalker's marriage was very public.

#58 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:35 AM

Yet Luke Skywalker's marriage was very public.

Meh, you said it yourself, his time as a Jedi is a lot different, considering he restarted the academy. I was mainly speaking in times of Anakin.

#59 force_echo

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:13 AM

Yes, but that FTL signal is obviously not transmitted in the same way as the "bullet" in the example because they don't discontinue the space-time diagram. They're assuming that information and massive particles are being transmitted through different coordinates. In fact, that very example posits that FTL travel will NOT cause time travel, but that information transmitted via a third observer to the "shooter" will violate causality. There's a difference there, the bullet in that example isn't travelling through time at all.

#60 force_echo

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:14 AM

To the issue of getting married as a Jedi; It is against the Jedi order. That is why Anakin did it secretly. it goes against the Jedi Code. Revan doing it in his time is just as bad as Anakin doing it. The Jedi are like monks, they don't live for themselves.

Except that Revan didn't hide his marriage at all. And not only did the Jedi Council not exile him or whatever, they made him a member of the Council.




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